game of thrones

[Mighty AC]

Nobody has spoiled anything yet, though some of the speculation is correct about small portions of this plot line. I'll just say that like every story line, this one gets bigger, better, more complicated and takes a while to play out. That's why it ended up taking Martin two books and a decade to finish what was supposed to one novel.

[Boges]

Well that whole Spoiler talk was put to rest in the first 3 minutes of last night's show.

You can tell I really didn't know what I was talking about because I actually thought the Fool was going to be a character moving forward. Failhorn for me.

Could Lord Baelish have looked any more creepy? I'm not sure if I'd be all that comfortable on that ship if I was Sansa.

Overall this episode was a bit of a let down. Many of the scenes were tedious. Lord Tywin patronizing Joffery's brother followed by some good ole incest rape. Hound being a douche to a guy that lets him spend the night and offers him a job. Sam trying to "protect" Gilly. And Blondie doing the same things she's done 2 or 3 times before trying to free slaves, I'm thinking Maureen might end up being her foil this time.

Tyrion and Podrick's scene was very compelling, Davos with Stannis' daughter always provide decent dialogue. The Night's Watch realizing they're completely overmatched was also somewhat interesting.

I suppose the episode following such a major even you can't expect another big development.

[kimmy]

Well darnit, the waldo was right again. Sooo... this is the second time Littlefinger has framed Tyrion for murder, right? Aside from being a hottie, Sansa is the only Stark commonly known to still be alive. Does that make her a valuable commodity that Littlefinger could somehow exploit? If I recall, Petyr Baelish was made Lord of Harrenhall, but Harrenhall is just a smoking ruin. Maybe he's looking to upgrade.

I liked the scene with Tywin and Tommen. Tywin is great whenever he's on the screen, of course, but I also liked the subtext. He's making sure that Tommen receives the tutelage that Joffrey didn't. The message to Cersei is: "you screwed up with Joffrey. I'm taking Tommen under my wing to make sure that this gets done right, because I don't trust you to do it." He even disses Joffrey right in front of her face.

A guy raping his sister right next to the rotting corpse of their son has to be probably one of the most inappropriate things to ever happen on TV. There's so much wrong with that that I don't even know which part to start with.

They've already done the Khaleesi's sack of slave cities twice... there seems little point in doing it again unless something turns out different this time.

I liked that Arya mentioned her "friend" in Bravos. Maybe she'll get to take him up on his offer.

-k

[Mighty AC]

A guy raping his sister right next to the rotting corpse of their son has to be probably one of the most inappropriate things to ever happen on TV. There's so much wrong with that that I don't even know which part to start with.

This scene really bothered me. Jaime is supposed to be an anti-hero type. On the surface he initially seems spoiled, evil and self serving but actually has many good and moral qualities. In the books, they do have sex next to Joffrey's corpse, but it was consensual. The director Alex Graves feels this scene he created did not depict a rape. He says he tried to show that the siblings get off on this kind of power struggle and that by the end the sex was consensual and mutually enjoyed.

Just in case I missed something, I re-watched that scene but it ends with Cersei saying "it's not right" and Jamie responding with "I don't care". If it was Grave's intention to show that this act had become consensual, then I think he badly missed the mark.

[Boges]

It's wasn't "full blown rape" She didn't scream, call for help or anything like that. She protested a bit but didn't seem to resist all that much.

Perhaps he's frustrated that he loves her because it's obvious she's the show's ultimate heel. He even tells her she's a "hateful person". His Anti-Hero status is about as intact as that of the Hound IMHO, I thought dude had a code?

However cue feminists to call for a boycott of GoT because of it's advocation of Rape Culture.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Boges

[-1=e^ipi]

Sooo... this is the second time Littlefinger has framed Tyrion for murder, right? Aside from being a hottie, Sansa is the only Stark commonly known to still be alive. Does that make her a valuable commodity that Littlefinger could somehow exploit? If I recall, Petyr Baelish was made Lord of Harrenhall, but Harrenhall is just a smoking ruin. Maybe he's looking to upgrade.

You have overlooked some important things in the show.

- Petyr Baelish is childhood friends with Catelyn Stark and her siblings Lysa Arryn & Edmure Tulley.

- Petyr Baelish is from the Vale & grew up in the Riverlands.

- Lysa Arryn is currently single (Jon Arryn died before season 1 which is why Ned Stark became hand of the king).

- Petyr Baelish was asked to form an alliance between the Vale and Kingslanding by Tyrion (though it is a trick, Marcella ends up going to Dorne) due to his connections to the Value.

- Petyr Baelish successfully negotiates an alliance with the Tyrells and is awarded Lord of Harrenhall.

- Unlike most of the characters in game of thrones, Baelish is not Highborn. That is why he created his own sigil (mockingbird) and is often talked down upon by other characters. In season 1, Cersei mocks him and threatens to kill him over this.

- In season 3, after he is awarded Lord of Harrenhal he declares his intentions to travel to the Vale in an attempt to marry Lysa Arryn and get the alliance of the Vale for Kingslanding (this is why Tyrion becomes master of coin, because Baelish leaves his position as master of coin). Because Baelish is Lowborn, he needed the Lord of Harrenhal status to marry Lysa Arryn.

- Petyr Baelish has decided to take Sansa with him (without anyone else knowing) to go to see Sansa's aunt (Lysa Arryn).

- Since most people think Rob, Bran and Rickon are dead, Sansa is assumed to be the Heir to the North.

- Since Edmure Tulley, Catelyn Stark & Rob Stark all died in the Red Wedding (Bran & Rickon are assumed dead) & Lysa Arryn is Catelyn's younger sister, Sansa is technically next in line to be the Heir to the Riverlands (after the current unborn child that was 'consummated' between Edmure Tulley and the Frey's during the Red Wedding). Of course everyone hates the Frey's... so it probably won't be hard to make Sansa Heir to the Riverlands.

- While Petyr Baelish was master of coin under King Robert's rule, he placed the crown under massive debt to the Bank of Bravos. Tyrion and Ned Stark both mention this. People from the Bank of Bravos will support enemies of the crown if the crown does not pay its debts (and the crown is nearly broke due to the war of 5 kings). In season 4 episode 3, Davos intends to try to get the support of the Bank for Stannis (but Petyr can always try to get their support later).

Looking at all these, it is clear what Petyr Baelish's plan is:

- Petyr plans to travel to the Erie, marry Lysa Arryn and become Lord Protector of the Vale. Remember that the Vale and Dorne are the only 2 kingdom currenly untouched by war.

- With Sansa, he has a reasonable claim to both the North and the Riverlands.

- If he gets the support of the Bank of Bravos as well then he will have 3 of the 7 kingdoms (2 devastated by war, 1 untouched by war) as well Bravos behind him. That much power alone makes him a potential contender to simply take the iron throne by force.

- He doesn't really have any enemies (except maybe Varys). The people in King's Landing think he is helping them, everyone else consider him a lowborn diplomat, and no one hates the Vale.

- Petyr Baelish might just bide his time, wait for all other parties to exhaust themselves, and take the iron throne at the end:

- The Frey-Bolton Alliance currently controls the North & Riverlands but are at war with the Iron Islands and are hated by many people.

- Stannis intends to go to the wall to help fight against the wildlings & white walkers (not to mention he still wants the iron throne).

- Whichever party wins the fight at the wall (Stannis, wildlings or white walkers) will have to head south at some point which means they will fight whoever wins the Frey-Bolton vs Iron Islands Fight.

- In the south, there is currently an uneasy alliance between Dorne, Kingslanding, the Westerlands & the Reach. This could fall quite easily, but even if it does not, Daenerys Targaryen will eventually come from Essos (with an army that includes Unsullied, Dovraki & Dragons). In season 4 episode 3, Twyin clearly understands this threat which is why he wants Dorne in the alliance because Dorne was the only kingdom that didn't fall the the Targaryens & their dragons.

- Most likely the winner of the war in the south (Daenerys vs Dorne-Reach-Westerlands) will fight the winner of the war in the North-Riverlands-Iron_Islands since the parties appear to have a grudge against each other. Meanwhile, Petyr and the Vale will be completely untouched... able to fight whatever opposition remains at the end...

Edited April 21, 2014 by -1=e^ipi

[kimmy]

When Tywin told Tyrion he was marrying Sansa, the discussion seemed to indicate that while Sansa's male offspring would be heir to the North, Sansa herself is heir to neither diddly nor squat.

As things stand, Lysa Arryn's special needs kid is the heir to the Vale, although if Littlefinger married her he'd presumably be essentially running the place, being the only mentally stable person in the Aerie. If he could arrange some kind of "accident" for the creepy kid and father his own son with the crazy lady, perhaps his son would be the rightful heir? Or does Lysa Arryn actually confer any claim to the throne? She was only an Arryn by marriage; the creepy kid is the only actual offspring of Jon Arryn.

As for Sansa... he doesn't "have her" in any legally binding sense. If he's marrying Lysa Arryn, Sansa's status as the oldest surviving Stark does no good to Littlefinger. Since she's presumably wanted as an accomplice to the murder of the King, it's not likely she'll have the chance to marry and have legitimate children. She's probably most valuable as a bargaining chip at this point.

Roose Bolton would probably like to get his hands on her... if he could extinguish the Starks, his line would become the lords of the North.

-k

[kimmy]

This scene really bothered me. Jaime is supposed to be an anti-hero type. On the surface he initially seems spoiled, evil and self serving but actually has many good and moral qualities. In the books, they do have sex next to Joffrey's corpse, but it was consensual. The director Alex Graves feels this scene he created did not depict a rape. He says he tried to show that the siblings get off on this kind of power struggle and that by the end the sex was consensual and mutually enjoyed.

Just in case I missed something, I re-watched that scene but it ends with Cersei saying "it's not right" and Jamie responding with "I don't care". If it was Grave's intention to show that this act had become consensual, then I think he badly missed the mark.

If that was his intent, he f*'d up big time. I think he'd have to be seriously tone-deaf to not recognized that he was depicting a rape.

It's wasn't "full blown rape" She didn't scream, call for help or anything like that. She protested a bit but didn't seem to resist all that much.

Perhaps he's frustrated that he loves her because it's obvious she's the show's ultimate heel. He even tells her she's a "hateful person". His Anti-Hero status is about as intact as that of the Hound IMHO, I thought dude had a code?

However cue feminists to call for a boycott of GoT because of it's advocation of Rape Culture.

I don't think Game of Thrones "advocated" for rape, anymore than they advocate for beheadings, poisonings, massacres at weddings, heads on pikes, flaying, or anything else that happens on the show.

I don't really want to get into a Whoopi Goldberg "it wasn't rape-rape" or Todd Akin "legitimate rape" type argument, but as it was depicted on TV, it was definitely "rape rape". She didn't scream for help... if she did, it could have exposed everything. It could have cost her and him and their bastard kids their heads.

-k

[-1=e^ipi]

When Tywin told Tyrion he was marrying Sansa, the discussion seemed to indicate that while Sansa's male offspring would be heir to the North, Sansa herself is heir to neither diddly nor squat.

That's not how the inheritance works in Westeros. Titles are transfered from parent to oldest son (then oldest daughter if there is no surviving son). The one exception is Dorne where it goes to the oldest child regardless of gender. Also, you have to remember that everyone thinks that Rob, Rickon and Bran are dead (John Snow is a bastard and part of the Night's Watch so cannot inherit anything).

If it were not for the Lannisters giving Roose Bolton Warden of the North, Sansa would be Warden of the North. And if it were not for the Lannisters giving the Freys Warden of the Riverlands, Sansa would be Warden of the Riverlands (assuming Edmure is dead and had no children with the Freys). But because of the red wedding, many people in the North and the Riverlands hate the Freys and Boltons. So it isn't unexpected that Sansa in the future will have a strong claim to both.

As things stand, Lysa Arryn's special needs kid is the heir to the Vale, although if Littlefinger married her he'd presumably be essentially running the place, being the only mentally stable person in the Aerie. If he could arrange some kind of "accident" for the creepy kid and father his own son with the crazy lady, perhaps his son would be the rightful heir? Or does Lysa Arryn actually confer any claim to the throne? She was only an Arryn by marriage; the creepy kid is the only actual offspring of Jon Arryn.

Lysa Arryn is Warden Regent of the East/Vale until her son comes of age much like how Cersei Lannister was the Queen Regent until Joffrey came of age (and is now Queen Regent again until Tommen comes of age since Joffrey is dead).

If Littlefinger marries Lysa Arryn, he will become Lord Protector of the Vale until Lysa Arryn's son comes of age. If there were some 'accident' to Lysa's son then the Wardenship of the Vale would go to a sibling of Jon Arryn.

As for Sansa... he doesn't "have her" in any legally binding sense.

He doesn't need to 'have her' in a legally binding sense. He only needs her as an ally. Together they can conspire to take the iron throne. Littlefinger doesn't need to be on the iron throne to control it. If he can get Sansa on it and control her then it is just as good.

If he's marrying Lysa Arryn, Sansa's status as the oldest surviving Stark does no good to Littlefinger. Since she's presumably wanted as an accomplice to the murder of the King, it's not likely she'll have the chance to marry and have legitimate children.

She is also potentially the 'oldest' surviving Tulley. Sansa and little finger merely have to wait for the Lannister Dynasty to end for the murder accusation to not matter (or the true murderer to be found). It is not like the Lannisters are short of enemies to overthrow them (Stannis, the remaining Starks, Daenarys, etc.).

Also, why does Sansa need to marry & have legitimate children? She already has a claim to the North and the Riverlands. Maybe she could marry her cousin (Lysa's son) in which case Sansa could potentially be the ruler to 3 of the 7 kingdoms. Maybe that is Littlefinger's plan?

She's probably most valuable as a bargaining chip at this point.

She is too valuable as a bargaining chip, and too risky to reveal in the near future. If Littlefinger reveals that he has Sansa, then the people in King's Landing will want Littlefinger and Sansa dead and a war with the Vale would occur. Petyr Baelish will probably keep Sansa a 'secret' (maybe will tell Lysa Arryn) until all the other parties in Westeros are exhausted from war. Not to mention that as long as the Freys and Boltons exist, Sansa does not have a claim to the North or Riverlands. Sansa and Petyr just need to bide their time...

Roose Bolton would probably like to get his hands on her... if he could extinguish the Starks, his line would become the lords of the North.

He is already the Warden of the North. His only concern is a rebellion of Stark loyalists (and the ironborne... and whatever happens at the wall).

Edited April 22, 2014 by -1=e^ipi

[Boges]

I don't think Game of Thrones "advocated" for rape, anymore than they advocate for beheadings, poisonings, massacres at weddings, heads on pikes, flaying, or anything else that happens on the show.

I don't really want to get into a Whoopi Goldberg "it wasn't rape-rape" or Todd Akin "legitimate rape" type argument, but as it was depicted on TV, it was definitely "rape rape". She didn't scream for help... if she did, it could have exposed everything. It could have cost her and him and their bastard kids their heads.

-k

AC just paraphrased the director saying that he wanted to try and show some power struggle that ultimately Cersei accepts. In the book it wasn't rape apparently. It was just the creepy act of sex next to the corpse of their son.

We'll see how this affects their relationship going forward as it seems Jamie is the only friend Tyrion has left while Cersei it the one leading the charge to have him killed.

He's right in the middle of one hell of a family spat.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Boges

[Mighty AC]

AC just paraphrased the director saying that he wanted to try and show some power struggle that ultimately Cersei accepts. In the book it wasn't rape apparently. It was just the creepy act of sex next to the corpse of their son.

We'll see how this affects their relationship going forward as it seems Jamie is the only friend Tyrion has left while Cersei it the one leading the charge to have him killed.

The problem with the rape scene, as depicted in the TV series, is it changes the audience perception of Jamie. This would be fine if the plan was to diverge from the books and paint Jamie as a monster, but according to Alex Grave's that wasn't the intent. We now have a situation where the audience feels differently about a character than the writers expected which could impact upcoming story lines.

[Boges]

Fair enough.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel about Jamie. His redeeming qualities only started to be evident when he saved Brienne. One of the many odd couples of the series. Up until that point he only really seemed to care about this incest relationship he has with Cersei. He's done far more bad then good so far.

Without knowing what happens I do see him coming right in the middle of his two siblings so perhaps making him his relationship with Cersei seem like it's all good doesn't help the plot.

After the first episode I thought the Hound was this great Anti-Hero then he acts like a C-word to this guy who feeds him, invites him as a guest, offers him a job and then the Hound robs him.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Boges

[Boges]

Hey now!!!!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/netflix-fee-hikes-coming-for-new-canadian-subscribers-1.2617798

Netflix has confirmed a price increase for new subscribers in the U.S. and Canada.

A company spokesman said it would be a "modest" increase of $1 to $2 and would go into effect this quarter (before June 30) for new Netflix members. For existing subscribers, the same increase is postponed for another two years.

Didn't think they could bankroll original programming and keep that ridiculously low price. $10/month still isn't much but unless you have unlimited bandwidth Netflix is only really good for watching movies or the occasional series. I, and most people I know, don't use it as a primary source of entertainment.

[Mighty AC]

Hey now!!!!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/netflix-fee-hikes-coming-for-new-canadian-subscribers-1.2617798

Didn't think they could bankroll original programming and keep that ridiculously low price. $10/month still isn't much but unless you have unlimited bandwidth Netflix is only really good for watching movies or the occasional series. I, and most people I know, don't use it as a primary source of entertainment.

I use a combination of Netflix and Hulu+ as my primary source of entertainment. Despite that I rarely surpass 100gb in a month; which, is just one third of my cap. If need be, going unlimited would add about $10 to my bill.

[Bonam]

People still have caps on their monthly bandwidth?

[Boges]

Gee that Post was supposed to be in the Cut the Cord thread. (failhorn)

[kimmy]

I believe they killed off Failhorn in season 2.

-k

[Boges]

So was, that White Walker Darth Maul or White Walker Voldomorte with a nose.

Apparently that wasn't in the books so the internet is freaking out.

Best episode of the season so far IMHO.

Am I the only one that's tired of Bran and the kid from Love Actually. Maybe Locke should kill him. Him and Jon Snow sure look to be on the verge of BFF status. Better not kill Hodor though.

Also how awesome is the internet for focusing in on Ser Pounce?

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2014/04/28/game-of-thrones-oathkeeper-review

Edited April 28, 2014 by Boges

[kimmy]

While I was also certainly excited to meet the royal cat, my favorite part of the episode was the parts involving Jaime, especially the scene with Brienne. I found it genuinely touching. She looked like she was going to break down and cry. This seems like a major turning point for him. He's decided to defy Cersei and honor his two-seasons-old promise to Catelyn Stark even though she's no longer alive. I can only wonder how Brienne and Podrick will fare.

Littlefinger's chat about "new friends" and Lady Tyrell's "did you think I would let you marry that little monster?" was a surprisingly quick resolution to what I had expected would be a long-running mystery.

The scene with Maergery and Tommen was also ... uh, interesting. The poor kid's heart must have been going about 180 beats a minute. How old is Tommen on the show? seems to me it'll be a while before he's of marrying age.

-k

[Boges]

Regarding the Death of Joffery. We now now that it was actually Lady Olenna Tyrell who did the deed. But I'm wonder how he got a jewel from Sansa's neck into Joffery's mouth. Sort of a suspended belief in reality (in a show with Dragons I know!)

Reminds me of Breaking Bad (SPOILERS ALERT!!!!) Where Huell somehow steals a Ricin cigarette from Jessie and makes him believe Gus poisoned Brock and them Walt Somehow gets that cigarette into Jessie's Rumba then Walt is able to get that Ricin into a packet of Stivia inorder to kill Lydia. (SPOILER OVER)

If you noticed Lady Tyrell adjusts Maergery's necklace. I'm thinking we may see the same thing happen again soon. I thought Tommen was going to buy it there for a second.

Jamie is the most moral confusing character on the show. He goes from raping his sister to giving his sword to a friend to fulfill an oath to a dead woman.

Also who's shipping Podrick and Brienne? Bridrick?

[Boges]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/04/28/game-of-thrones-season-4-episode-4-review/

This review details that the whole Bron, Locke, Crasters Mutineer story arc is completely different from what happens in the book. It appears that HBO may be taking a similar tactic as AMC with the Walking Dead and having narratives that are vastly different from the source material to keep fans of the books on their heels a bit.

IMHO it's a better way to consume the entertainment. As TV is a different narrative than movies, books and/or comics.

It's also a smart tactic as the TV creators are up against an author who's working way to slow, so perhaps they can make bleep up along the way.

[-1=e^ipi]

He's decided to defy Cersei and honor his two-seasons-old promise to Catelyn Stark even though she's no longer alive.

Are you sure about that? He might have done that to help Tyrion in the trial. Cersei's main complaints when he confronted her was that none was looking for Sansa and that he was spending too much time with the 'ogre' (Brienne). By sending Brienne, he both satisfies Brienne and Cersei.

Littlefinger's chat about "new friends" and Lady Tyrell's "did you think I would let you marry that little monster?" was a surprisingly quick resolution to what I had expected would be a long-running mystery.

Petyr Baelish is even more powerful than I though. If he has the strong alliance with the Tyrells, then that makes him have potential claim to 3 of the 7 kingdoms and an alliance with the 4th, plus the iron bank.

Regarding the Death of Joffery. We now now that it was actually Lady Olenna Tyrell who did the deed. But I'm wonder how he got a jewel from Sansa's neck into Joffery's mouth. Sort of a suspended belief in reality (in a show with Dragons I know!)

She took a bead off Sansa's necklass in episode 1 at the wedding.

[Mighty AC]

Jamie is the most moral confusing character on the show. He goes from raping his sister to giving his sword to a friend to fulfill an oath to a dead woman.

While I was also certainly excited to meet the royal cat, my favorite part of the episode was the parts involving Jaime, especially the scene with Brienne. I found it genuinely touching. She looked like she was going to break down and cry. This seems like a major turning point for him. He's decided to defy Cersei and honor his two-seasons-old promise to Catelyn Stark even though she's no longer alive. I can only wonder how Brienne and Podrick will fare.

That was some powerful acting, especially by Ms. Christie. The progression of Jamie's character into an honourable "oath keeper" adds proof that the rape scene was really just a directorial mistake.

Littlefinger's chat about "new friends" and Lady Tyrell's "did you think I would let you marry that little monster?" was a surprisingly quick resolution to what I had expected would be a long-running mystery.

The need to hide the crystalline form of the strangler poison in jewelry (necklace in the show, hairnet in the books) was never explained. It's not like the royal guests were being searched. Anyway, there is about to be some big developments that suggest that even though it was Lady Tyrell who delivered the poison and Littlefinger who removed Sansa, others may have been in on the plot or were at least aware of it.

The scene with Maergery and Tommen was also ... uh, interesting. The poor kid's heart must have been going about 180 beats a minute. How old is Tommen on the show? seems to me it'll be a while before he's of marrying age.

He's old enough to be doing back flips over the prospect of their next secret meeting. Still I think he is supposed to be only 8 or 9 at this point, which is young enough for the scene to be a little creepy.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Mighty AC

[Boges]

Wasn't it Littlefinger who first brought the Tyrells and the Lannisters together in the first place? It should be no surprise they're close.

As a side note, Apparently people are now naming their children Khalesi. God knows how many people are going to name their next cat Ser Pounce.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Boges

[Mighty AC]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/04/28/game-of-thrones-season-4-episode-4-review/

This review details that the whole Bron, Locke, Crasters Mutineer story arc is completely different from what happens in the book. It appears that HBO may be taking a similar tactic as AMC with the Walking Dead and having narratives that are vastly different from the source material to keep fans of the books on their heels a bit.

I like this altered story line beyond the wall. As the article mentions the true Bran story does drag. It will be interesting to see if Jon does actually meetup with Bran and possibly helps him on his quest.