Boges Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) BTW for those that HAVEN'T read the books, like me, If you Google a bit about how A Storm of Swords actually ends there is a really cool potential way they could have ended that season that book readers were really excited about, my wife included. It's a huge spoiler to mention in here but if anyone can't stand the curiosity about the big reveal at the end of the book, it's quite interesting. Especially considering Lena Headley (Cersi) apparently Instagram'd what was believed to be a spoiler of the way to book ended. I guess it was misdirection. Edited June 16, 2014 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 Is this supposed to be a refutation to my earlier post? Or are you just informing me of what I already know? You had a comment on a disconnect between population and size of Westeros. My post pointed out there is none, given the limited amount of arable land. Did that make you angry for some reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 The brawl between Brienne and the Hound was crazy! I was hoping that somehow they might stop before either of them died, but as it progressed from a sword fight to all-out animalistic life or death struggle, it became pretty clear that we were losing somebody. Poor old Sandor... he's been one of my favorites for a couple of years, and I hoped somehow things might turn out better for him. He was trying to taunt Arya into putting him out of his misery, and all he managed to do was make himself sad. I thought that Arya had some genuine affection for him, but I guess not. He taught her too well, I guess. The part where Melissandre was looking at Jon as if he were a meat popsicle is intriguing. I wonder if she knows something about his background or his destiny or something like that. So... Tywin Lannister gets shot to death while sitting on the toilet, just like Vincent Vega. I guess Shae's testimony against Tyrion was because she got a better offer. One wonders where this leaves the Lannisters in the future. Who'll be the lord of Casterly Rock? Seems obvious that Jaime and Cersei will both be staying in King's Landing from now on. With Tywin gone, it appears that Cersei will be the one guiding Tommen and tutoring him in the world of politics. That's probably bad news for everybody in Westeros. This season, all 3 of Tywin's children rebelled against him in their own way. The scene with Cersei and Tywin was pretty good. I gather that Cersei is having the mad scientist rebuild Gregor into some kind of Frankenstein monster? Not liking where this is heading. Odd that there's no fallout from the guy confessing to raping and murdering the Dornish princess in front of all those assembled nobles. Bran is now living in a cave under a tree with Gandalf and Tinkerbell. Interested to see what the old dude means by saying Bran will fly (I recall he already did that, with a little coaching from Jaime Lannister...) That Reed girl is pretty tough. She's just an adolescent, and she's out there smacking the crap out of the living dead with no fear. I assume Dany will be off to see How To Train Your Dragon 2 as soon as it arrives in Meereen theatres. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 I gather that Cersei is having the mad scientist rebuild Gregor into some kind of Frankenstein monster? Not liking where this is heading. Odd that there's no fallout from the guy confessing to raping and murdering the Dornish princess in front of all those assembled nobles. I think the point of Oberyn trying to get a confession was so he could implicate Tywin. I don't think anyone DIDN'T think the Moutain was a murderous Hell. What's also interesting is that Oberyn has poison on his weapons. That sneaky Dornishman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 It's quite convenient that Stannis showed up AFTER the big battle. Interesting moment when the Red Witch caught Jon Snow's eyes. He's got a thing for Red heads eh? Nice. An interesting look indeed. The highlight of the episode was not Tyrion going stonecold killer by offing Shae and Tywin. How implausible was that BTW? No guards anywhere between where ever the Red Keep is and Tywin's bedroom?They failed to explain that King's Landing is full of secret passages. They were built by the Targaryens back in the day and nobody knows of all of them anymore. However, Varys has mapped out quite a few and much of the information he gets from "little birds" was likely obtained by listening from the passages. Anyway, one passage connects the tower of the hand to the underground system, that's how Tyrion got in so easily. Bran's storyline is Meh. He's hanging with and old dude and the children of the corn now?This story line is the slowest in the books as well. The old dude that has been watching Bran through the Weirwood trees and visiting his dreams as the crow is actually part of the tree. His body has grown into the root system. Anyway, it appears as though he and Bran will be the link to the old times before the first men; when giants and the 'children' of the forest roamed the land. I suspect Bran's abilities will be necessary to save Westeros going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 So... Tywin Lannister gets shot to death while sitting on the toilet, just like Vincent Vega. I guess Shae's testimony against Tyrion was because she got a better offer. One wonders where this leaves the Lannisters in the future. Who'll be the lord of Casterly Rock? Seems obvious that Jaime and Cersei will both be staying in King's Landing from now on. With Tywin gone, it appears that Cersei will be the one guiding Tommen and tutoring him in the world of politics. That's probably bad news for everybody in Westeros. This season, all 3 of Tywin's children rebelled against him in their own way. The scene with Cersei and Tywin was pretty good.A Lannister always pays his debts. It was nice that Tyrion, was finally able to settle his. It was also nice to see a rare glimpse of the human side of Cersei. I assume Dany will be off to see How To Train Your Dragon 2 as soon as it arrives in Meereen theatres. Based on your succinct and witty GOT synopses, I am willing to bet that you write for a living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) -k Poor old Sandor... he's been one of my favorites for a couple of years, and I hoped somehow things might turn out better for him. Not a good time to be a Clegane. So... Tywin Lannister gets shot to death while sitting on the toilet, just like Vincent Vega. They missed a good line from the books there. His bowels released and it turned out that Tywin Lannister does not, in fact, "shit gold". With Tywin gone, it appears that Cersei will be the one guiding Tommen and tutoring him in the world of politics. That's probably bad news for everybody in Westeros. Going by how long most characters in this story seem to last, most people probably have much nearer term things to worry about! Interested to see what the old dude means by saying Bran will fly Well, he has his abilities as a warg, and there's all this talk of ravens... Edited June 17, 2014 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 You had a comment on a disconnect between population and size of Westeros. My post pointed out there is none, given the limited amount of arable land. Did that make you angry for some reason? No, it didn't make me angry. Your post isn't a sufficient refutation of my claim that there is a large disconnect between population and size of Westeros. You haven't provided any 'estimates' of how large the difference in percent of arable land there is between say Europe and Westeros and shown that it is sufficient to offset the discrepancy that I have outlined (a factor of 8). Given the geography and climate of Westeros, and that Westeros has been inhabited for a very long time and the population is basically at steady state, differences in limitations to arable land are no where sufficient enough to account for this discrepancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 This story line is the slowest in the books as well. The old dude that has been watching Bran through the Weirwood trees and visiting his dreams as the crow is actually part of the tree. His body has grown into the root system. Anyway, it appears as though he and Bran will be the link to the old times before the first men; when giants and the 'children' of the forest roamed the land. I suspect Bran's abilities will be necessary to save Westeros going forward. Yeah, I expect that there will be a lot of flashbacks about the history of Westeros next season through Bran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Not a good time to be a Clegane. I was a bit surporised that Arya let the Hound die badly. Their relationship seemed to be more love than hate lately. No, it didn't make me angry. Your post isn't a sufficient refutation of my claim that there is a large disconnect between population and size of Westeros. You haven't provided any 'estimates' of how large the difference in percent of arable land there is between say Europe and Westeros and shown that it is sufficient to offset the discrepancy that I have outlined (a factor of 8). Given the geography and climate of Westeros, and that Westeros has been inhabited for a very long time and the population is basically at steady state, differences in limitations to arable land are no where sufficient enough to account for this discrepancy. A factor of 8 compared to what? Modern societies like ours or 15th century Europe? I don't see a discrepancy with the population given the limited amount of arable land, complete lack of efficient transportartion beyond frequently pirated ships, ground transport by carts, frequent wars, plagues, predatory leadership, and primitive agricultural practice. And hungry dragons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 You guys made me finally Google Arable Land. Holy Crap! Canada has a similar percentage of Arable Land than most of Africa! I know a great majority of Canada is Arctic but you'd think much of the the East and Prairies would have fertile land. Even Russia has 5%+. No wonder India has the population it does, it's almost half Arable land. BTW can I get a ruling SPOILER (for those sensitive types) who thinks it's OK to discuss the Lady Stoneheart thing? It's not a real spoiler because no one knows if they'll even include it but it was a real bummer for Book Readers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 One of the surprising things about India is how there are large chunks of land that are obviously very fertile and productive. The Punjab area is one of those. Kerala too, Australia has more arable land than Canada? MOstly Oz has thin strips of coastal land that are productive, the center is pretty much a gravel parking lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) BTW can I get a ruling SPOILER (for those sensitive types) who thinks it's OK to discuss the Lady Stoneheart thing? It's not a real spoiler because no one knows if they'll even include it but it was a real bummer for Book Readers. As thrilling as the arable land conversation is (it's not), let's talk this. I cheated and wiki'd ahead and I hope they don't bring that in. Sounds like a really lame plotline. We've got wights, White Walkers, fireball throwing elves, dragons, do we need more supernatural silliness? What's funnier to me is the number of book readers WHINING about the loss of the Tysha reveal. I guess they feel being abused all his life and finally sentenced to death wasn't motivation enough for Tyrion to ice the old man. Edited June 17, 2014 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) As thrilling as the arable land conversation is (it's not), let's talk this. I cheated and wiki'd ahead and I hope they don't bring that in. Sounds like a really lame plotline. We've got wights, White Walkers, fireball throwing elves, dragons, do we need more supernatural silliness? I think that's true. But Bran's storyline sort of breaks everything open for supernatural elements. I think the reason people wanted to see it was because this season was seen as the end of the TV shows equivalent to the 3rd book. The 3rd book ends with this cliffhanger. Even having a zombified Cat Stark shown as part of a Marvel-like mid credit reveal would have been pretty cool. What's funnier to me is the number of book readers WHINING about the loss of the Tysha reveal. I guess they feel being abused all his life and finally sentenced to death wasn't motivation enough for Tyrion to ice the old man. You mean the fake prostitute that Tyrion married and how Tywin double crossed him twice regarding her true identity? It was downplayed in the show and the reveal in the books make Jamie and Tyrion part on a bad note. The way the show did it was better, made you feel better about their relationship. Edited June 18, 2014 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 I was a bit surporised that Arya let the Hound die badly. Their relationship seemed to be more love than hate lately. A factor of 8 compared to what? Modern societies like ours or 15th century Europe? I don't see a discrepancy with the population given the limited amount of arable land, complete lack of efficient transportartion beyond frequently pirated ships, ground transport by carts, frequent wars, plagues, predatory leadership, and primitive agricultural practice. And hungry dragons. Sigh, read my earlier post. Medieval Europe. Based on knowledge of army sizes, city sizes, and distances Westeros has a population density of 10 people per square mile at best. Medieval England on the other hand had a population density of 80 people per square mile, and England had a low population density compared to most of the rest of Europe at the time. That means that other factors need to account for a factor of 8 at least. If you look at a map of Westeros, even if you consider that the North (due to cold), Dorne (due to deserts) and the Eerie (due to mountains) to have little or not very good farmland, you are still left with about half of Westeros. So differences in arable land can explain a factor of 2 at best in differences in population densities between Westeros and Medeival. Then you have the 'harsher climate' due to the longer winters & longer summers. But from what we know in the book, the southern part of Westeros (where most people live) isn't that affected by the Winter and it does not even snow in Dorne. Plus, all the above estimates of population density for Westeros were all made using population numbers that occurred after the long summer. Meaning that the population density should be lower on average so the discrepancy in population density should be even larger. I cannot really see justifying more than a factor of 2 in population density due to the longer winters and summers. That still doesn't add up to a factor of 8 and I'm giving lots of benefit of doubt to make the population density reasonable but I just don't see it. There is a large discrepancy between size and population of Westeros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) Sigh, read my earlier post. Medieval Europe. Based on knowledge of army sizes, city sizes, and distances Westeros has a population density of 10 people per square mile at best.... So you have a factor of 8 discrepancy... one factor of 2 comes from Arable land as you discuss above, another factor of 2 comes from climate differences as you also mention. So the factor of 8 is really a factor of 2 remaining "unexplained". Given the relative lack of available information, that it's fiction, etc, the fact that population comes to within a factor of 2 of the expected population is an example of surprisingly good agreement, rather than discrepancy. Ever work in any kind of science dealing with quantities that span multiple orders of magnitude and uses a lot of empirical relationships? A result agreeing with a theoretical prediction to within a factor of 2 is usually a sign of a stunning success! Edited June 18, 2014 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 So you have a factor of 8 discrepancy... one factor of 2 comes from Arable land as you discuss above, another factor of 2 comes from climate differences as you also mention. So the factor of 8 is really a factor of 2 remaining "unexplained". Given the relative lack of available information, that it's fiction, etc, the fact that population comes to within a factor of 2 of the expected population is an example of surprisingly good agreement, rather than discrepancy. Ever work in any kind of science dealing with quantities that span multiple orders of magnitude and uses a lot of empirical relationships? A result agreeing with a theoretical prediction to within a factor of 2 is usually a sign of a stunning success! Did you forget that I already gave a lot of benefit of the doubt in all of the earlier estimates I used for land size, population, population density of Medieval Europe, etc.? I could easily chose values that give a difference much greater than a factor of 2. It's like this: - the population of Westeros used might be within a reasonable confidence interval - the size of Westeros used might be within a reasonable confidence interval - the population density of Europe used might be within a reasonable confidence interval - the difference in percentage of arable land between Westeros and Europe used might be within a reasonable confidence interval - the estimated effect of seasonal variation on population might be within a reasonable confidence interval But that does not imply that the resulting factor of 2 is within a reasonable confidence interval... let alone that a factor of 1 is. Like if each of the above 5 factors had a p-value of 0.05, the resulting factor 2 would have a p-value of 0.226. Does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 Does that make sense? Sure but I think it's overthinking it a bit. Population of fictional land within a factor of 10 of what one might expect it to be? Yes? Check, can rest easy now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 Sure but I think it's overthinking it a bit. Population of fictional land within a factor of 10 of what one might expect it to be? Yes? Check, can rest easy now! I'm not overthinking it. Many other posters in other threads agree with me and see the discrepancy. Want me to provide links to those threads? There is a discrepancy. I don't really care, but there is a discrepancy. Also, the author tries to make the 'realistic' (or at least internally consistent) so this is an unfortunate oversight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 Anyone want to try to explain how Stannis was able to get a Cavalry able to defeat an arm of 10's of thousands of people (Giants and Mammoths included) behind the wall undetected? Did he use a Wildling port? Apparently before he got The Iron Bank to be his Sugar Daddy he only had an army of 4,000. How much fictional money does it cost to raise up an army that powerful and why didn't he just use it to try and take Kind's Landing again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 Anyone want to try to explain how Stannis was able to get a Cavalry able to defeat an arm of 10's of thousands of people (Giants and Mammoths included) behind the wall undetected? Did he use a Wildling port? Apparently before he got The Iron Bank to be his Sugar Daddy he only had an army of 4,000. How much fictional money does it cost to raise up an army that powerful and why didn't he just use it to try and take Kind's Landing again? Well, the Wildlings outside the Wall were less an army than just a big migrating rabble. Stannis' army was smaller, but they were trained soldiers in full armor on horseback, and they didn't defeat the whole army, they cut off the head. Quality and tactics trumped sheer numbers. To me the more unrealistic part is what are they going to do with all those wildlings? He said they'd put them in chains, but that seems unlikely. As for why he took his army to the wall instead of attacking King's Landing again... I guess it's because he said he would. His Red Witch decided it was important, and he committed to it, and that's that. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 He threatened to put them in chains. I think he realizes the Wildlings have no intent to conquer anything. Once the White Walker threat is spelled out he'll understand. Which is why the Melliandre said he should go up there in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 A Lannister always pays his debts. It was nice that Tyrion, was finally able to settle his. It was also nice to see a rare glimpse of the human side of Cersei. Based on your succinct and witty GOT synopses, I am willing to bet that you write for a living. I dabble, but have never earned a cent at it. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 I think that's true. But Bran's storyline sort of breaks everything open for supernatural elements. I think the reason people wanted to see it was because this season was seen as the end of the TV shows equivalent to the 3rd book. The 3rd book ends with this cliffhanger. Even having a zombified Cat Stark shown as part of a Marvel-like mid credit reveal would have been pretty cool. I'm open to supernatural stuff (comes with the territory). I just think that ZCS is a bridge too far. Plus it kinda lessens the punch of the Red Wedding. I guess it all comes down to execution (pun intended), but I don't really see the show going there at this point. You mean the fake prostitute that Tyrion married and how Tywin double crossed him twice regarding her true identity? It was downplayed in the show and the reveal in the books make Jamie and Tyrion part on a bad note. The way the show did it was better, made you feel better about their relationship. The other part of the books they left out in the amicable partying of Tyrion and Jamie is that Tyrion told Jamie about all the people Cersei slept with while he was away, which further drove a wedge between the Twincest Two. Now in the show, Jamie has, uh, reconciled with Cersei, but who knows how she'll feel if she figure out Jamie let Tyrion go and murder their dad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 To me the more unrealistic part is what are they going to do with all those wildlings? He said they'd put them in chains, but that seems unlikely. -k He's only putting their leaders in chains. The others are still stuck on the north side of the wall, which is as good as prison basically. They can hang out there, or they can scatter back to their homes further north and become irrelevant, but the white walker threat will likely keep most of them near the wall. As for why he took his army to the wall instead of attacking King's Landing again... I guess it's because he said he would. His Red Witch decided it was important, and he committed to it, and that's that. He probably still only has 4000 men, just now with ships and horses and equipment and supplies. That's nowhere near enough to vie for the Iron Throne yet. Stannis sees a power vacuum in the North and intends to start building his kingdom there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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