Michael Hardner Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) The character of the supporters of an idea don't really say much for/against the idea itself. See Les Miserables, for example. And I'm sure the original tea partiers weren't as well dressed or nice smelling as the loyalists were either. Edited February 19, 2011 by Michael Hardner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Let them fail! Change is good! I'm with you on that!!! Gotta give Bush & Co. "due credit" for ALL the "bailouts"... And "SELLING" the $700 BILLION dollar bailout, TARP, to OBAMA to sign onto, WOW, a masterful stroke of GENIUS 100 times better than the effort of selling the WMDs in Iraq story... Congratulations Mr. Bush et al, you truly know the American public EXTREMELY well... Once a CON always a CON... As the saying goes... "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." Something the Dems should have learned, but didn't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 That's rather convenient isn't it? When the Tea Part protests, it's all about he protesters. When these unions protest, it's "why don't we focus on the issues instead." This shit's unbelievable. Professor... It's no one's fault but yours that you have little to no knowledge of labour legislation... You have tacitly admitted that you don't know what RTW is... You don't know what the NAM is... You did'nt even know that a "voluntary" 60 hour work week was on the books in Ontario( from earlier in the week in the federal politics board) Perhaps it's time to ejumacate yourself,or bow out of this one as gracefully as you can? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 A read of Naomi Klein's book the Shock Doctrine reveals just how accurate she was in her predictions of the corporatist model being promoted by the conservative shills on this site. Corporate welfare is alive and well and once again the working class is paying the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) A read of Naomi Klein's book the Shock Doctrine reveals just how accurate she was in her predictions of the corporatist model being promoted by the conservative shills on this site. Corporate welfare is alive and well and once again the working class is paying the price. Naomi Klein is a leftist twit,but she's absolutley right when dealing with the free marketeer excuses to drive wealth upwards towards their corporate benefactors.. Wiait a minute... Neoliberal/Free market ethos as a wealth redistribution excercise... Hmmmm???? Edited February 19, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) Labour law can be changed, definitely, but the government should not be able to legislate itself out of its own agreements and contracts. Why not? It is the will of the people! Truth is, the government does exactly that every day. What happened here ? As we have seen, teachers have been getting less than inflation for increases for years now. I'm still waiting to see that. I don't know why you keep harping on this...the teachers union agreed to this! Can't have it both ways. I think that text-based (print) is best for submitting arguments, which is why I discount talk radio, cable TV shoutfests and so on. But in any case, all of these assume that facts are being given. What are yours ? Again..your own bias. I assume no such thing...neither should you. That's why it is called "politics". No, there is no requirement to state facts in a democracy but that's really beside the point. The founding fathers established freedom of the press so that debate would flourish, and the republic would benefit didn't it ? No...they established freedom so that land owners and free men could flourish. The labor union movement would come much later! Edited February 19, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) Professor... It's no one's fault but yours that you have little to no knowledge of labour legislation... You have tacitly admitted that you don't know what RTW is... You don't know what the NAM is... You did'nt even know that a "voluntary" 60 hour work week was on the books in Ontario( from earlier in the week in the federal politics board) Perhaps it's time to ejumacate yourself,or bow out of this one as gracefully as you can? I've specifically address the issues related Wisconsin. Not of other, unrelated places or countries. Anyways, nobody's discussed the racket that's involved in these public unions. These unions provide electoral support for politicians that agree to keep the goods flowing back to the union. If that isn't corruption, I don't know what is. That's another part of this Wisconsin labour issue. Unions don't wanna see some of their benefits cut, and Democrats don't wanna see some of the political power shrunk. It's pretty disgusting. They're each used to greasing eachothers palms. At the expense of Joe and Jane 6-pack. Edited February 19, 2011 by Shady Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 BC condones the breach of contracts by the state and has the temerity to suggest that is what the people have endorsed. Surely he must know his assertion is a dishonest portrayal of the facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I've specifically address the issues related Wisconsin. Not of other, unrelated places or countries. Anyways, nobody's discussed the racket that's involved in these public unions. These unions provide electoral support for politicians that agree to keep the goods flowing back to the union. If that isn't corruption, I don't know what is. That's another part of this Wisconsin labour issue. Unions don't wanna see some of their benefits cut, and Democrats don't wanna see some of the political power shrunk. It's pretty disgusting. They're each used to greasing eachothers palms. At the expense of Joe and Jane 6-pack. Hogwash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) I've specifically address the issues related Wisconsin. Not of other, unrelated places or countries. Anyways, nobody's discussed the racket that's involved in these public unions. These unions provide electoral support for politicians that agree to keep the goods flowing back to the union. If that isn't corruption, I don't know what is. That's another part of this Wisconsin labour issue. Unions don't wanna see some of their benefits cut, and Democrats don't wanna see some of the political power shrunk. It's pretty disgusting. They're each used to greasing eachothers palms. At the expense of Joe and Jane 6-pack. And corporate types don't form organizations (unions by another name) to create PAC's to bend the ears and fill the coffers of sympathetic minded politicians.?? Keep it up,Professor... You obviously still have no idea what the NAM is,do you? And spare all of us the "Con's are sticking up for the little guy" crap.... Edited February 19, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Why not? It is the will of the people! Truth is, the government does exactly that every day. You know why not. I don't know why you keep harping on this...the teachers union agreed to this! Can't have it both ways. I keep harping on it because suddenly they appear to be too expensive, yet they have been taking less money every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 You know why not. No...you are extolling the virtue of facts. Here, the facts seem to be less than acceptable. I keep harping on it because suddenly they appear to be too expensive, yet they have been taking less money every year. Why do they keep doing that....hummmmmmmmm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 No...you are extolling the virtue of facts. Here, the facts seem to be less than acceptable. The courts overturn the will of the people all the time. Why do they keep doing that....hummmmmmmmm? Not sure, but my original point stands. Other facts: from a brief web search, it seems there are "over" 50,000 teachers in Wisconsin and 20,000 fire and police officers. Here are the requirements to be a police officer in Kenosha, from a 2005 job posting: Be a U.S. citizen - be at least 18 years of age - possess a valid driver's license- vision correctable to 20/20, no color impairment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 The courts overturn the will of the people all the time. The courts are part of government. Not sure, but my original point stands. They have accepted little or no wage increases in an effort to protect that which is far more valuable....benefits and pensions. The unions have even accepted multiple tier pay scales for tenured and new hires....how's that for union "brotherhood"!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 They have accepted little or no wage increases in an effort to protect that which is far more valuable....benefits and pensions. More evidence that the Wisconsin government has acted in bad faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 More evidence that the Wisconsin government has acted in bad faith. Con/corporate types acting in bad faith??? Whodathunkit??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 More evidence that the Wisconsin government has acted in bad faith. Gosh...I hope so for the sake of Wisconsin taxpayers. If they go belly up, Vikings fans will have to feed Super Bowl Champion cheesheads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Gosh...I hope so for the sake of Wisconsin taxpayers. If they go belly up, Vikings fans will have to feed Super Bowl Champion cheesheads. See if you can find those Wisconsin tax rates over the past 10, 20 years. I can't seem to find them... odd since this is supposed to be such an economics-based issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 More evidence that the Wisconsin government has acted in bad faith. I agree, but the Wisconsin government you refer to are the ones from previous years and decades. Offering, or more accurately, pandering to public unions. Offering pay, benefits and pension that weren't affordable. Kicking the can down the road. Well, we're at the end of the road. It's not ideology. It's math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I agree, but the Wisconsin government you refer to are the ones from previous years and decades. Offering, or more accurately, pandering to public unions. Offering pay, benefits and pension that weren't affordable. Kicking the can down the road. Well, we're at the end of the road. It's not ideology. It's math. You realize these contracts have been negotiated by both sides,right? Union busting is now math... I suppose it is in the mind of the free marketeer??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 You realize these contracts have been negotiated by both sides,right? Union busting is now math... I suppose it is in the mind of the free marketeer??? Like I said, the union doesn't have to go along with the meaures. But if it wants to preserve jobs, it will. If it doesn't, it's likely to see mass layoffs. If they like that better, so be it. But math is math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) Like I said, the union doesn't have to go along with the meaures. But if it wants to preserve jobs, it will. If it doesn't, it's likely to see mass layoffs. If they like that better, so be it. But math is math. Preserve jobs by cutting it's own throat by agreeing to provisions designed for it's demise... Right Professor...It's all about the free marketeer calculus...It's not about union busting under the guise of a budgetary crisis... Edited February 19, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Preserve jobs by cutting it's own throat by agreeing to provisions designed for it's demise Riiiight. Paying half of what everyone else has to pay for health care and benefits is designed for their own demise. If that's the case, then they should be busted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Like I said, the union doesn't have to go along with the meaures. But if it wants to preserve jobs, it will. If it doesn't, it's likely to see mass layoffs. If they like that better, so be it. But math is math. Yeah, 40 student sized classrooms will be so much better for the economic future of Wisconsin... Fewer cops, firemen, EMTs, and beaurocracy means spending days instead of hours to get any public issues heard nevermind addressed and that will make the people of Wisconsin feel so much better about the state they live in... I fully understand that premis... Does a lot of the public in Wisconsin carry guns? Might be something to consider pertaining to this issue... Just sayin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 This is what the union's going to face if these meastures aren't agreed to. The police union in Newark tried the same thing. Wouldn't budge, and the result was 167 people layed off. This week Newark Mayor Cory Booker announced that due to multi-million dollar budget gap and an impasse with the city's police union, he had no choice but to layoff off 167 police officers. Booker is not the only New Jersey mayor facing hard choices.Link And in this particular case, all he asked them for was a 1 year pay freeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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