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Union Busting in Wisconsin


Jonsa

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You portray yourself as the white knight and the union and its members as the antithesis of that fantasy world you have constructed for yourself. That you went out of your way to antagonize union members at a plant you worked at suggests to me an element of bad faith on your part which had nothing to do with your supposed purity and everything to do with your own personal ambition and an apparent dislike for unions.

You haven't indicated what your specific capacity was at the plant you worked at nor have you described in any detail what gave rise to the threats and damage to your property and what role you played in provoking such circumstances.

That nice middle class wage you likely earned came in no small part through gains made by unions notwithstanding your perceived worth in management.

As others have noted places of employment without union representation provide an environment where an employee is at the workplace at the will and pleasure of the employer or person designated to act on behalf of the employer.

In each jurisdiction in Canada there are very elaborate procedures unions must follow in seeking to represent employees in a given workplace. These laws give recognition to democracy in the workplace and the wishes of the employees and also, in the formulation of a collective agreement, the countervailing power of collective action not otherwise available without a union. You may not like this in that smug complacency that you offer but this is the way it is.

pinko, you either have not read my post #45 or you choose to ignore it. Then I struggled as an immigrant when I got that job I describe there, I was still in a process of what you probably have no idea about: learning a new language in order to survive.

I had no relatives at the Company. I had no friends or anyone to speak for me. I simply wanted to do what my parents always taught me do and be the best you can.

Once I was out of the slaves chains put on me and every poor sucker by the union and left the reservation, I applied for a course for computer programming, which the company provided free of charge for everyone interested.

The rest, as they say is history, absolutely WITHOUT any help or even more correctly, in spite of the union. I spent almost 30 years as a successful computer programmer, and if I could do it, with little knowledge of the mother tongue of most union members, completely on my own merit, go ahead and call me a scab, a company slave, put the imprint of a Louisville Slugger on my forehead, I don't care. You and any and all of your ilk only will indict yourselves.

Yes, I DO HAVE a personal dislike for unions. But I never called them anything like I've been called by you and your ilk. And I never threatened them with physical harm as you and your ilk threatened me.

Think about it, and I will accept your apology.

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As the middle class that unions helped create disappears, there hasn't been a time in the last 50 years that unions have been more relevant.

Since are there laws, federal, state/provincial, local, etc., to protect the working class, (admittedly a result of previous union activity) unions today are totally OBSOLETE.

Unions have demanded themselves out of job. They are directly responsible for the exportation of jobs to China and India.

They are also responsible for NON-UNION, American/Canadian built Toyotas, Nissans, Mercedes's, Volkswagens and Hondas.

When I was young and impressionable I kept on buying GM, Ford and Chrysler products which inevitably crapped at maximum 150,000 KMs. My Present Toyota Sienna at 355,000 KMs still purrs and likely to go for a million.

For that - being fair-minded - I thank the unions. Or lack thereof.

Edited by Yukon Jack
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Since are there laws, federal, state/provincial, local, etc., to protect the working class, (admittedly a result of previous union activity) unions today are totally OBSOLETE.

Those laws don't help you negotiate sufficient wages to take part in the middle class. The middle class was created in the wake of unionization. As unionization has lost steam over the past 20 years, the middle class has dropped accordingly.

Having a middle class benefits everyone. There are extreme social problems when the gap between the haves and have-nots gets too large. And having a healthy consumer society doesn't hurt the economy either.

And unions are necesary for a middle class to exist because, quite simply, no one's going to give up money they don't have to. You want good wages, you have to be in a position to negotiate for them.

And those American-made cars sucked simply because they were designed poorly. It had nothing to do with whether the workers were organized or not.

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Private sector unions at least have to deal with economic realities. In fact, many private sector union employees are having their taxes used to fund these greedy and unrealistic public employees. Again, like a reverse Robin Hood system. It's disgusting.

Private sector unions also don't have a monolithic employer who also makes the laws. If the union has been certified and represents the workers, then the employer has a moral obligation to deal with them. Legislating them out of existence is just not fair.

It would be like if you had a contract with the government, and they passed a special law saying they didn't have to fulfill their end.

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As a union rep I dealt with many a scumbag like you. With your attitude it is a wonder you weren't given an attitude adjustment. I think you know what I mean.

You really should put aside your person dislike for scumbags, as it will help you be objective and maybe even win others over to your side.

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Private sector unions also don't have a monolithic employer who also makes the laws. If the union has been certified and represents the workers, then the employer has a moral obligation to deal with them. Legislating them out of existence is just not fair.

It would be like if you had a contract with the government, and they passed a special law saying they didn't have to fulfill their end.

They're not being legislated out of existence. They're being asked to contribute half as much to their benefits as everyone else does. Personally though, I don't believe in the concept of public unions. Their salaries and benefits aren't tied to any wealth they produce. It's all tied to how much money they take from other people that produce wealth. At least private sector unions deal with economic reality, simply want a proper share of the profits they help create.

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Yes, union's did a great job of achieving a great number of things. Private sector unions. Public sector employees pay taxes, but their entire salary is tax money paid by other people. So they don't really produce anything, or add anything new to the government treasury. They just take unsustainable pensions and benefits, at the expense of Joe and Jane 6-pack. Who see their property taxes and state income taxes go up, and up, and up to cover the cost of these economic reality sheltered people.

This is just a flaw of economics, IMO. The idea that people who teach, work in healthcare or do social work don't add value is clearly incorrect.

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Since are there laws, federal, state/provincial, local, etc., to protect the working class, (admittedly a result of previous union activity) unions today are totally OBSOLETE.

Unions have demanded themselves out of job. They are directly responsible for the exportation of jobs to China and India.

This is simplistic and basically just wrong. Unions couldn't compete with China if they were paid minimum wage.

They are also responsible for NON-UNION, American/Canadian built Toyotas, Nissans, Mercedes's, Volkswagens and Hondas.

Many of those plants pay union wages, and follow the lead taken by the "big 3" American manufacturers.

When I was young and impressionable I kept on buying GM, Ford and Chrysler products which inevitably crapped at maximum 150,000 KMs. My Present Toyota Sienna at 355,000 KMs still purrs and likely to go for a million.

For that - being fair-minded - I thank the unions. Or lack thereof.

Being fair minded ? What are you talking about ? You seem to buy your vehicles based on your politics. I like unions fine, but I just buy the best value myself.

Edited by Michael Hardner
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This is just a flaw of economics, IMO. The idea that people who teach, work in healthcare or do social work don't add value is clearly incorrect.

You're absolutely right, they do add value. But it's very difficult to measure. I'd propose that they recieve salaries and benefits comparable to similar jobs in the private sector.

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I found it very telling that, as one pointed out, they have exempted police and firefighters from this. It's a cynical move, and proof that this is not being done on principle but for political points. Quite gutless, in fact.

If the police and firefighters have any foresight, they should see what this could eventually mean for them and work to rule.

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You're absolutely right, they do add value. But it's very difficult to measure. I'd propose that they recieve salaries and benefits comparable to similar jobs in the private sector.

I think that would be fair - and that should be negotiated. I doubt that there is much difference, though. Corporate trainers make a lot of money, for example, so would you compare them to teachers ? It's apples-and-oranges.

I do think there's waste and inefficiency, and laziness and overpayment, but the government is - first and foremost - bad at MANAGING. Private companies seem to be able to get their workers to do their jobs, even if they're unionized. Politicians are clueless at this task, it seems to me.

This is further evidenced by the soapbox-climbing nature of the bill - exempting popular careers from this bill.

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I found it very telling that, as one pointed out, they have exempted police and firefighters from this. It's a cynical move, and proof that this is not being done on principle but for political points. Quite gutless, in fact.

I disagree. I think it's quite logical. They literally put their lives on the line every day. Teacher's do good work. But it's nowhere near the danger the other two face.

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I disagree. I think it's quite logical. They literally put their lives on the line every day. Teacher's do good work. But it's nowhere near the danger the other two face.

That's an emotional argument, though. Would you similarly accept "won't someone think of the children ?" or similar arguments ?

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pinko, you either have not read my post #45 or you choose to ignore it. Then I struggled as an immigrant when I got that job I describe there, I was still in a process of what you probably have no idea about: learning a new language in order to survive.

I had no relatives at the Company. I had no friends or anyone to speak for me. I simply wanted to do what my parents always taught me do and be the best you can.

Once I was out of the slaves chains put on me and every poor sucker by the union and left the reservation, I applied for a course for computer programming, which the company provided free of charge for everyone interested.

The rest, as they say is history, absolutely WITHOUT any help or even more correctly, in spite of the union. I spent almost 30 years as a successful computer programmer, and if I could do it, with little knowledge of the mother tongue of most union members, completely on my own merit, go ahead and call me a scab, a company slave, put the imprint of a Louisville Slugger on my forehead, I don't care. You and any and all of your ilk only will indict yourselves.

Yes, I DO HAVE a personal dislike for unions. But I never called them anything like I've been called by you and your ilk. And I never threatened them with physical harm as you and your ilk threatened me.

Think about it, and I will accept your apology.

I don't recall you mentioning you were an immigrant and at no time have I threatened you as you seem to imply.

If you are able to converse in more than one language good for you. You or your parents must have known when you came here that English was the predominant language and if you lived here as a child you would/should have learned the language.

That you became a computer programmer does not, in any way, make your co-workers within union ranks any less a success than you regardless of your attitude of superiority.

I have no reason to apologize to you.

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Obviously you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the word: "MERIT".

If you were not, you would know that those who deserve what they earn, deserve what they earn. And those who don't, only GET, not earn what they get, thanks(?) to free-loader-supporting unions.

Could you rephrase this? I have no idea what you're trying to say...

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Private sector unions at least have to deal with economic realities. In fact, many private sector union employees are having their taxes used to fund these greedy and unrealistic public employees. Again, like a reverse Robin Hood system. It's disgusting.

Public sector unions are greedy for wanting a living wage? Nobody likes to pay taxes, but those public servants are doing necessary work. Well, most of them :) In any large organization, whether it is public or private sector, you're going to find inefficiencies. It's inevitable. They used to call GM's headquarters The Detroit Kremlin, for how dense the bureaucracy was.

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Scotty, Scotty you naive little boy (girl?)

The very election and presence of Ronald Reagan scared the Iranian thugs out of their skirts.

I think that by that time they were looking for a way out, and this gave them a way out, while still claiming a victory over the previous American president.

A United States President should have enough presence to scare potential agressors.

You mean like Sadaam or Mubarak?

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The union of today serves no purpose at all other then to make money for itself. We have labour laws in place today that weren't there before. Yes they were put in place due to unions which they have now outlived their purpose. We should look at outlawing them altogether now.

How is this different from how you negotiate your deal with your employer ? Everybody works to get money.

Outlawing things is an easy solution, as many Fascistic ideas are. People won't and shouldn't put up with unfair actions by their government though.

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