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Union Busting in Wisconsin


Jonsa

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If it were just logical and not politics, why wouldn't Wisconsin just do a risk assessment, and factor that in with such factors as education requirements ?

And frankly, if they were to do a risk assessment, they'd almost certainly find that policing is nowhere near the most statistically dangerous job out there.

Edited by bloodyminded
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Looks like even progressive media members recognize the folly going on in Wisconsin:

Revolutions everywhere–in the middle east, in the middle west. But there is a difference: in the middle east, the protesters are marching for democracy; in the middle west, they’re protesting against it. I mean, Isn’t it, well, a bit ironic that the protesters in Madison, blocking the state senate chamber, are chanting “Freedom, Democracy, Union” while trying to prevent a vote? Isn’t it ironic that the Democratic Senators have fled the democratic process? Isn’t it interesting that some of those who–rightly–protest the assorted Republican efforts to stymie majority rule in the U.S. Senate are celebrating the Democratic efforts to stymie the same in the Wisconsin Senate?

An election was held in Wisconsin last November. The Republicans won. In a democracy, there are consequences to elections and no one, not even the public employees unions, are exempt from that. There are no guarantees that labor contracts, including contracts governing the most basic rights of unions, can’t be renegotiated, or terminated for that matter. We hold elections to decide those basic parameters.

Time Magazine - Joe Klein

Walker wants public employees in Wisconsin to pay more for health care benefits and to contribute to their pension plans. Frankly, those are reasonable requests.

No one likes to lose benefits. We all want what was promised years ago. However, it is simply not going to happen. As long as these budget deficits are staring taxpayers in the eye, unions are putting themselves in a difficult situation by thinking they will not have to give something back.

Otherwise, union workers will end up like the police and firefighters in Camden, N.J.; playing hardball, only to see a mayor slash their jobs and leave half of the cops with no jobs, no health care and limited future choices.

CNN - Roland Martin

And again, just to correct the record. What Walker and the GOP have proposed in the bill is to require all public-sector unions (except police and firefighters) to conduct annual recertification votes, and to limit collective bargaining to wages only. Union dues would become voluntary, and the unions will have to collect them rather than have the state do it for them. Government employees would still have the right to collectively bargain salaries, and could still choose a union to represent them.

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Looks like even progressive media members recognize the folly going on in Wisconsin:

And again, just to correct the record. What Walker and the GOP have proposed in the bill is to require all public-sector unions (except police and firefighters) to conduct annual recertification votes, and to limit collective bargaining to wages only. Union dues would become voluntary, and the unions will have to collect them rather than have the state do it for them. Government employees would still have the right to collectively bargain salaries, and could still choose a union to represent them.

So it's RTW without calling it RTW...

Typical con anti labour sentiment...

And why would any union memeber agree to this?

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Looks like even progressive media members recognize the folly going on in Wisconsin:

And again, just to correct the record. What Walker and the GOP have proposed in the bill is to require all public-sector unions (except police and firefighters) to conduct annual recertification votes, and to limit collective bargaining to wages only. Union dues would become voluntary, and the unions will have to collect them rather than have the state do it for them. Government employees would still have the right to collectively bargain salaries, and could still choose a union to represent them.

The Time piece is preposterous. The government of Wisconsin is playing politics in order to abuse its own workers, as it can do because it passes the laws. This is just unfair, and the people have a right to protest that. They will likely be arrested for their protests, that's to be expected.

The fact that so few facts have been provided for this bears out my point that this is pure politics and scapegoating of the most shameful kind.

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Well done....this summarizes things nicely. Isn't democracy a beautiful thing? :)

Democracy doesn't trump everything, certainly not the law and it shouldn't trump standing agreements either except in emergency situations.

That is what's being portrayed as happening now - but I'm still waiting for the facts - I event went to the Wisconsin Republican Website but they didn't explain how big this "big hole" is or how it erupted so quickly - the size of the various employee payrolls involved and why heroes were exempted.

Democracy usually involves some kind of real information to an inquiring public.

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The Time piece is preposterous. The government of Wisconsin is playing politics in order to abuse its own workers, as it can do because it passes the laws. This is just unfair, and the people have a right to protest that. They will likely be arrested for their protests, that's to be expected.

The fact that so few facts have been provided for this bears out my point that this is pure politics and scapegoating of the most shameful kind.

Of course it is....

It's easy to after public sector unions because the citizens of that jurisdiction are paying for them,so any "demands" they make "seem" personal....

This is an attempt at busting a union through the back door...Essentially RTW legislation...

The problem I would have with this in a closed shop state like Wisconsin is that this is precedent setting,and once these marauding free marketeering cons get through with the public sector,they'll surely go after the private sector unions with the same type of legislation...

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And why would any union memeber agree to this?

They wouldn't. Because it isn't as good of a deal as they've got going right now. But that's about to change. That's like asking why a corporation would agree to a tax increase. Of course they wouldn't, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't/won't happen.

This is just unfair, and the people have a right to protest that. They will likely be arrested for their protests, that's to be expected.

No, it's completely fair. Asking people making 6 figure salaries to pay half of what everybody else pays into their health and pension benefits is beyond fair. In fact, they should probably be paying more. Crying "pure politics" and "scapegoating" is just a way to deflect from actual issues being addressed.

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Democracy doesn't trump everything, certainly not the law and it shouldn't trump standing agreements either except in emergency situations.

Correct...economics trumps everything! Labor law was created by the same process that can change it.

That is what's being portrayed as happening now - but I'm still waiting for the facts - I event went to the Wisconsin Republican Website but they didn't explain how big this "big hole" is or how it erupted so quickly - the size of the various employee payrolls involved and why heroes were exempted.

No matter...the larger fiscal issues remain for many states. It's going to be a bumpy ride!

Democracy usually involves some kind of real information to an inquiring public.

Only from your vantage point....there is no such requirement. Remember, you rejected my talk radio example in favor of a non-existing web model.

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They wouldn't. Because it isn't as good of a deal as they've got going right now. But that's about to change. That's like asking why a corporation would agree to a tax increase. Of course they wouldn't, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't/won't happen.

Is your position that corporations should have the legislative hammer of RTW legislation,and be able to bust individual union locals by financial means?

Because that's what your advocating...

Edited by Jack Weber
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No, it's completely fair. Asking people making 6 figure salaries to pay half of what everybody else pays into their health and pension benefits is beyond fair.

What's fair is what is negotiated between two parties. If I find out that you paid less for a new car than I did, I can't really go back and say it was unfair.

Also, to accurately say that the six figure salaries + bonuses are unfair, one would have to look at the details and as I have stated we're short on those.

In fact, they should probably be paying more. Crying "pure politics" and "scapegoating" is just a way to deflect from actual issues being addressed.

What actual issues ? And this isn't purely issue based, as we have seen since they're refusing to touch heroic careers.

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Anyways, where's the media?

So far I've seen...

Signs that Walker is Hitler.

Signs that Walker is Mussolini.

Signs that Walker is Mubarak.

Signs that Walker is a rapist.

And signs that say don't retreat, reload, with a gun sight over his face.

I thought all of this was outrageous, remember? Can you imagine if this was a Tea Party rally? What the media would be saying if this was directed towards Obama or another Democrat? The liberal media strikes again. :rolleyes:

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What's fair is what is negotiated between two parties. If I find out that you paid less for a new car than I did, I can't really go back and say it was unfair.

Also, to accurately say that the six figure salaries + bonuses are unfair, one would have to look at the details and as I have stated we're short on those.

What actual issues ? And this isn't purely issue based, as we have seen since they're refusing to touch heroic careers.

Spot on...

This an attack on organized labour under the guise of a budgetary crisis...

This goes directly to collective bargaining rights and the right to organize a workplace...

It's not necessarily a public/private issue...

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How about we just deal with the issue at hand. Instead of hypothetical, tinfoil hat type nonsense? :)

There's nothing hypothetical about what I said at all...

Have you ever sat across the table from some these people in a contract negotiation???

Because I have,and I hear those words all the time...

And no doubt these will be the free market excuses that will propogated...

Edited by Jack Weber
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Correct...economics trumps everything! Labor law was created by the same process that can change it.

Labour law can be changed, definitely, but the government should not be able to legislate itself out of its own agreements and contracts.

No matter...the larger fiscal issues remain for many states. It's going to be a bumpy ride!

What happened here ? As we have seen, teachers have been getting less than inflation for increases for years now. I'm still waiting to see that.

Only from your vantage point....there is no such requirement. Remember, you rejected my talk radio example in favor of a non-existing web model.

I think that text-based (print) is best for submitting arguments, which is why I discount talk radio, cable TV shoutfests and so on. But in any case, all of these assume that facts are being given. What are yours ?

No, there is no requirement to state facts in a democracy but that's really beside the point. The founding fathers established freedom of the press so that debate would flourish, and the republic would benefit didn't it ?

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Anyways, where's the media?

So far I've seen...

Signs that Walker is Hitler.

Signs that Walker is Mussolini.

Signs that Walker is Mubarak.

Signs that Walker is a rapist.

And signs that say don't retreat, reload, with a gun sight over his face.

I thought all of this was outrageous, remember? Can you imagine if this was a Tea Party rally? What the media would be saying if this was directed towards Obama or another Democrat? The liberal media strikes again. :rolleyes:

Why don't we focus on the issues themselves, rather than picking at the protesters ? I have no doubt that idiots on both sides of the fence are rising to the occasion.

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There's nothing hypothetical; about what I said at all...

It's all hypothetical. Nothing about what you've said has been proposed in this situation. Your comments are pure Glenn Beck-ish speculation. You sound like the same people saying "if Obama takes over the car companies, he's surely going to nationalize the banks, and then nationalize this and that." :lol:

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Why don't we focus on the issues themselves, rather than picking at the protesters ? I have no doubt that idiots on both sides of the fence are rising to the occasion.

That's rather convenient isn't it? When the Tea Part protests, it's all about he protesters. When these unions protest, it's "why don't we focus on the issues instead." :rolleyes:

This shit's unbelievable.

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It's all hypothetical. Nothing about what you've said has been proposed in this situation. Your comments are pure Glenn Beck-ish speculation. You sound like the same people saying "if Obama takes over the car companies, he's surely going to nationalize the banks, and then nationalize this and that." :lol:

That's it Professor..

When one does'nt have the requisite knowledge of an issue intimate that person who does is "crazy"...

:blink:<_<

If a managerial entity is demanding it's workforce give up it's collective bargaining rights,wants to have annual recertification votes on union membership,and,allow individual members to opt out(all the while benefitting from the dues paid by members in good standing),what is it if it's not right to work??

And if the managerial entity is also a legslative body,how much of a stretch is it to think this is a dry run to go after the private sector unions through legislative means???

And let's not forget the precedent setting RTW labour legislation of Republican dominated states in the mid west and Southeast...

Yeah....Tinfoil hat stuff indeed...

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That's rather convenient isn't it? When the Tea Part protests, it's all about he protesters. When these unions protest, it's "why don't we focus on the issues instead." :rolleyes:

This shit's unbelievable.

It's all about the protesters for whom ? Not me. That's just collective ad homminem IMO.

If we have threads here about the protesters then - sure - I guess that's what it's about, i.e. we can discuss the protesters themselves. But MLW is better for talking about ideas than taking potshots at a mob, IMO. Like I say, you can pick apart a mob pretty easily and it doesn't amount to much more than gossip in the end.

The character of the supporters of an idea don't really say much for/against the idea itself. See Les Miserables, for example.

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