North & South Korea War

[Smallc]

You are....

Harppon

Tomahawk

How exactly? The Iroquois Class are equipped with the Mk. 41 VLS. The Mk. 41 VLS is capable of launching Tomahawk cruise missiles.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-41-vls.htm

The Mk. 41 VLS does not launch the Harpoon, but the SM 2.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Smallc

[Smallc]

It looks like the ship would just need a different canister, provided that it has enough depth for it.

[dre]

South Korea has bluntly refused any reunification based on the German Model. They don't want to go bankrupt rebuilding the North.

Waddaya know! I dont want to go bankrupt rebuilding the North EITHER!

Thats why Canadas position on any potential conflict should be "Good luck with that guys!"

[DogOnPorch]

It looks like the ship would just need a different canister, provided that it has enough depth for it.

Not just that...I believe it would need to be upgraded to Aegis...if able.

[M.Dancer]

How exactly? The Iroquois Class are equipped with the Mk. 41 VLS. The Mk. 41 VLS is capable of launching Tomahawk cruise missiles.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-41-vls.htm

The Mk. 41 VLS does not launch the Harpoon, but the SM 2.

Actually they are mk 48s but I thought you were refering to the harpoon launch platform...

In any case...no

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-48-vls.htm

[M.Dancer]

Actually they are mk 48s but I thought you were refering to the harpoon launch platform...

In any case...no, the frigates have Mk48s

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-48-vls.htm

[Oleg Bach]

Actually they are mk 48s but I thought you were refering to the harpoon launch platform...

In any case...no

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-48-vls.htm

As a young guy I sat in the same room with a man who was making deals to arm Iraq and Iran...years later...I saw him and his hair and nails had grown long..his kids from his trophy wife were rapists and drug addicts..His Rolls Royce - got t-boned...and he finally lost his taste for whiskey and died....YOU guys are second rate. Arms and arms dealing is for the lowest of the low and tradgedy always awaits those in the end who live off the blood of others. Now grow up!

[Smallc]

Not just that...I believe it would need to be upgraded to Aegis...if able.

I'm not sure why. You can fire cruise missiles without AEGIS.

[Smallc]

Actually they are mk 48s but I thought you were refering to the harpoon launch platform...

In any case...no

Again, I'm not sure why. The system is designed to fire cruise missiles and does it on other ships all of the time.

[M.Dancer]

Again, I'm not sure why. The system is designed to fire cruise missiles and does it on other ships all of the time.

Not that easy. different sizes etc. It would need weeks in port...you can't unload a sm block and load a tomahawk,,different canisters, different lengths etc...

[bush_cheney2004]

Not that easy. different sizes etc. It would need weeks in port...you can't unload a sm block and load a tomahawk,,different canisters, different lengths etc...

Right again...and for additional reasons. Canada's assets do not have compatible fire control systems for Tomahawk, nor does Canada have the mission planning and targeting capability.

[Smallc]

I didn't say that it would be simple...or that they could hit anything with it. It could be modified to fire them. Perhaps I should have been more clear...and done a bit more research.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Smallc

[Shwa]

Since when is the truth chauvenism?

Believing your opinion to be truth is chauvenism.

The situation is far more complicated. Just rolling up our sleeves with a "git er done" type of attitude won't work.

Rolling up our sleeves or wringing our hands? Doing nothing gets nothing done too.

Nope, but it'll accept the outcome of a regime change.

Agreed, preferably sooner than later.

Did I say Iraq was North Korea? I merely made the point that general lessons learned from Iraq can be used in future engagements - the biggest of which is we shouldn't be waltzing into countries believing that we're going to be greeted by people handing us flowers. To do anything other than planning for the worst is to not be prepared at all.

This is sarcastic strawman. No one is saying that anyone is going to 'waltz' into NK expecting flowers. However there is likley a heck of a lot more intel gathered over the years than anything they had on Iraq. Even still, the actual push into Iraq was fairly quick and easy. It is the later insurgency that has people bullied. If there is a better post-war plan for NK, and I am betting there is, then Iraq's lessons are not so valuable.

Yeah not really. No amount of money can teach the Koreans how to run an economy.

I don't think the NK's are as inpet as you. I prefer to see them more positively and worthy of the effort.

But they won't. China doesn't care who runs Korea as long as it doesn't bother China. They're not going to get involved. South Korea can't get involved because it means war. Notice how after the sinking of the Cheonan South Korea said they'd retaliate after the next provocation? Notice how they're saying the exact same thing now after that very provocation? This goes to show exactly how much South Korea wants to change regimes by force.

The sinking of the ship, the lobbing of bombs was an effort by the NK regime to affect their own timing to what they likely see as the inevitable. However, all you are going on is the public response from SK. Unless you have some insider information from secret sources you would like to wikishare. I am betting you don't. If I was working on a plan to take the head off the dragon, I wouldn't be putting that in the Seoul Times.

South Korea also do not want reunification under a German model. They don't want to bankrupt themselves rebuilding North Korea. Nor for that matter, does the rest of the world. So, your assumption there will be piles of money, other than the fact that it simply won't work, is besides the point because there won't be any piles of money to begin with.

I agree to a point, which is why an Asian Coalition looks attractive. I mean, I have to wonder if they region prefers to have NK as is, or are willing to share the economic pain as a bloc. An interesting question that doesn't often come up in the expert discussions. However, I doubt integrating a willing NK post-Jong would be too difficult a task. It has been done before and SK might be a little more willing to review the German model if they had incentive to do so.

You're kidding me right? You're comparing regular crime in the US (which occured in the Soviet Union as well) to Stalin's brutal repressions and genocide? You're saying that rape, as horrible as it is, is the same thing as sending 20 million people to the Gulag?

Let's talk about rape inside the gulag. Guards raped women, other prisoners raped women. More established men raped children. The boat ride to the gold mines of Kolyma, it was almost a tradition for groups of men to rush the women's compartment, raping the entirety of the compartment, leaving quite a few dead. Both inside and outside, women basically prostituted themselves so they wouldn't get harsh work details which certainly see them starve to death. The prostituted themselves so they wouldn't be sent to a family camp for relatives of enemies of the state. They were ostracised from their home and family due to fear of being rounded up themselves.

So, where in US society does this type of activity happen?

Nope. I am comparing just one crime sector in the present US with the present status of Russia. If we want to criticise others be prepared to remove the rose coloured glasses.

I don't think you have a full comprehension of how seriously compromised Soviet Society was. The results are still haunting Russia to this day. You may think of it as some kind of academic exercise, but it's a very real phenomenon. Just because you can't understand that, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Questioning my understanding of historical Soviet society based on a misunderstanding of references is somewhat underwhelming. However, comparatively, the results of slavery is still haunting the US to this day. An unremarkable fact.

You realize that liberation and fed and feeling well will take generations, right? Who wants payback after 60 years?

It might, it might not. Fail to plan is planning to fail. However, liberating the oppressed and feeding the starving people now is much better than letting them continue for generations without any plan to help them.

We've dealt with North Korea in every way possible except for one. We need to cooperate and send more aid. You may say hey, this is crazy, but it's not about propping up the regime, it's about helping the people. There are private and public western aid organizations currently operating with North Koreans at this very minute. We need to build up trust with the regime so more can get in.

It's not a crazy plan, but has some very legit merit. We need more of this type of thinking in foriegn policy circles. I am sure you would not be surprised to learn that NK has caused much hand-wringing in foreign affairs departments over the past half century. But I sometimes wonder what the other memos say. Is it possible that they want to keep the regime or a similar regime in for other purposes, say political or military?

Why? Because all authoritarian governments are built on myths which are reinforced by propaganda. If you deligitimize the propaganda, you deligitimize the entire state. Since NK propaganda is almost solely focused on the Yankee Imperialist Agressor, a benevolent US that helps the people of NK accomplishes that. When they see US and western Aid workers and realize they're not the devil, they'll start asking questions.

Agreed. However, a legitimate Asian Coalition also might reduce the Yankee Imperialist Aggressor myth too. Now, how to gain that legitimacy in the eyes of the NK populous? Hmmm... more aid from that specific bloc and keep the American involvement to a minimum or hands off. Now would the Americans or UN be willing to do that? I think so.

You also get side benefits of a people who are better fed, economic education will help create a sustainable economy on which a middle class can be built. The middle class is the absolute lynch pin of any modern democracy. Create that and sustainable change will come. It'll take years, but it can be done. Just knocking out a leader, throwing money at the people and hoping it all turns out fine won't work because the people won't know what to make of the change or how to use the money to create self-perpetuating economic growth.

What we give them will help in the short term, but will peter out. We'd leave due to the gigantic costs in terms of blood and treasure and in the end since there wasn't a solid base for free institutions to be built on, North Korea, like Iraq and Afghanistan will, will fall back into authortarianism negating any good work done.

Good planning either way, I think is the key.

[Oleg Bach]

Having been raised by parents that endured revolution war and starvation...and looking at the bullet marks and other scars...both of my folks carried - I am of the school of thought that war should not be permitted- and certainly should not become a business.

[bush_cheney2004]

Having been raised by parents that endured revolution war and starvation...and looking at the bullet marks and other scars...both of my folks carried - I am of the school of thought that war should not be permitted- and certainly should not become a business.

Liberty requires nothing less than more scars and bullet holes.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Having been raised by parents that endured revolution war and starvation...and looking at the bullet marks and other scars...both of my folks carried - I am of the school of thought that war should not be permitted- and certainly should not become a business.

Wake up dude. That is how it is my friend. War is not merely permitted, it is promoted. Ever hear of the military industrial complex? This is the real root of very big business, government contracts paid for with tax dollars from your own pocket. Add the banker into the equation and you get a very interesting picture. A veritable plethora of financial parasites infesting every working humans personal pay check. A man made system that has made us into wage slaves, living and working to pay off mortgages and other forms of credit at interest.

To say that we should should not have ventured down that path is more than a tad bit squirrelly. Here is where we now find ourselves whether you approve or disapprove of the realities of history. We got here down that path, it is a done thing. Perhaps we should choose a different path for the future, but keep in mind that to change the order of things will bring harm in some form some where to some one. It doesn't matter how you slice that cake up, its still cake.

[bjre]

Wake up dude. That is how it is my friend. War is not merely permitted, it is promoted. Ever hear of the military industrial complex? This is the real root of very big business, government contracts paid for with tax dollars from your own pocket. Add the banker into the equation and you get a very interesting picture. A veritable plethora of financial parasites infesting every working humans personal pay check. A man made system that has made us into wage slaves, living and working to pay off mortgages and other forms of credit at interest.

To say that we should should not have ventured down that path is more than a tad bit squirrelly. Here is where we now find ourselves whether you approve or disapprove of the realities of history. We got here down that path, it is a done thing. Perhaps we should choose a different path for the future, but keep in mind that to change the order of things will bring harm in some form some where to some one. It doesn't matter how you slice that cake up, its still cake.

This is exactly what I wanted to say but not be able to express as good as this.

[Wilber]

Wake up dude. That is how it is my friend. War is not merely permitted, it is promoted. Ever hear of the military industrial complex? This is the real root of very big business, government contracts paid for with tax dollars from your own pocket. Add the banker into the equation and you get a very interesting picture. A veritable plethora of financial parasites infesting every working humans personal pay check. A man made system that has made us into wage slaves, living and working to pay off mortgages and other forms of credit at interest.

To say that we should should not have ventured down that path is more than a tad bit squirrelly. Here is where we now find ourselves whether you approve or disapprove of the realities of history. We got here down that path, it is a done thing. Perhaps we should choose a different path for the future, but keep in mind that to change the order of things will bring harm in some form some where to some one. It doesn't matter how you slice that cake up, its still cake.

Nice theory, now explain North Korea.

[Rue]

Waddaya know! I dont want to go bankrupt rebuilding the North EITHER!

Thats why Canadas position on any potential conflict should be "Good luck with that guys!"

In the event of reunification South Korea would bare the brunt of the cost just as Germany did.

If North Korea collapsed there would be a huge influx of refugees trying to get into China and South Korea for food in the short term and then migration to the South as happened between East and West Germany.

Now I am not saying the Korean and German models are identical but they are similiar enough to have provided a valuable precedent to deal with the huge adjustment problems that would ensue.

I think if anything the US might get stuck as they usually are with certain costs but I think in this case China, Taiwan, Japan and South Korea will have no choice but to also step in to prevent instability in the region if for no other reason hundreds of thousands if not millions of displaced refugees would have severe ripple effects for them all.

Now does the military complex in North Korea collapse? Is it fragile?

North Korea is a lot like Albania was before it collapsed. It manages to keep itself pretty much a closed shop.

There is poor intelligence as to the internal heirarchy of Generals in its military and the role they might play when Kim dies. Whether they prop his son as was done in Syria with Assad Jr. using him like they use Assad Jr. as a prop to keep everyone happy while others run the show, or whether this fat boy has any real power remains to be seen.

Their could be a coups d'etats or internal power struggle between generals but how would anyone know?

I think China has the immediate and very real problem on its hands of realizing if the regime continues as is, they can not hold back the number of food refugees pushing into China. There's just too many of them now to shoot or send back.

I personally think Kim is trying to get more foreign aid through beligerent displays since the tactic has worked in the past, in particular food. He in the past has been given great amounts of food to go quiet and that food pretty much feeds the armed forces.

From what info comes out of North Korea their ability to feed themselves has collapsed yet again.

There's a limit until the hunger is so disconnected from the day to day propoganda and rhetoric that people just can't take it any more and flee or die trying.

I don't think its geographically impossible to land occupy North Korea. Its too big. I doubt the Americans or South Koreans want that.

I doubt South Korea even wants to absord North Korea and the huge strain it will place on its economy.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Nice theory, now explain North Korea.

What do you want explained about them. Because if you want the truth ask them, I can only conjecture like you. I can tell you they are still at war, in their hearts and minds, after so many decades they are still "defending themselves". Only now it seems that both China and Russia have turned their backs on them, and many ask why they act so paranoid! With justification according to them.

They want what they want, period. They are willing to either talk or fight for their lives. We need to ask ourselves how we want this to turn out. I say this because for the first time American military power finds itself with its back up to the wall in many respects. Nobody eve planned for multiple theater of operations while maintaining an enhanced presence within homeland defense. The Americans spent their way out of the cold war into a hot war on the scale they never imagined. Maintaining their prowness on the world stage has cost them dearly and will continue to do so until they are finally overcome, the end of the enlightened empire will have been witness by the rest of the world.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Nobody eve planned for multiple theater of operations while maintaining an enhanced presence within homeland defense. The Americans spent their way out of the cold war into a hot war on the scale they never imagined.

Nonsense...the American military has been specifically designed to fight wars in multiple theaters concurrently.

Just sit back and watch the fun on American TV, just as you always do.

[Wilber]

What do you want explained about them. Because if you want the truth ask them, I can only conjecture like you. I can tell you they are still at war, in their hearts and minds, after so many decades they are still "defending themselves". Only now it seems that both China and Russia have turned their backs on them, and many ask why they act so paranoid! With justification according to them.

They are still defending themselves but it was they who invaded to start the war they still see themselves at. They are a regime that has no imagination past using blackmail to get the necessities they are too incompetent to provide for themselves. The South no longer sees itself at war, it is too busy improving its citizens lives by building a strong economy. There is no reason the North couldn't do the same. Look at Vietnam in comparison.

[Rue]

Nice theory, now explain North Korea.

Stalinist time warp. One of the last vestiges of Stalinism and its remained around as long as it has because in short, North Korea had and has no natural resources of interest to anyone. If it had huge lithium deposits like Afganistan or was strategically placed to facilitate an oil pipeline like Afghanistan or had huge oil deposits like Iraq, it would have much more people concerned.

I will also say this and I am serious about it, I also think if it was a caucasian European country with the sheer number of starving people that are present in North Korea now, the West would react differently.

I am not suggesting the West is deliberately racist but the fact is when non white people starve-they do not solicit the same reaction as white people and I think that is human nature-the closer people look to us and live to us, the more we care-the further away they live and the more different they look, the less we care. I think that is human nature-we see more wars fought between people of different races then between the same race.

Now when I use the word race, I use the old subjective appearance construct because I appreciate biologically it has been disproven. I also refer to the studies of Konrad Lorenz and others who noticed it was harder for someone to kill someone who looks more like them or reminds them of someone in their family.

From a distance, the North Korean can look like a demon-a strange creature that takes on almost surrealistic characteristics particularly when they goose step and march and engage in their propoganda marches and mass population displays.

I think that fuels part of the disconnect between the West and North Korea and its far different way of doing things than we do.

Now that is a half-asped attempt. I appreciate there are far more complex theories as well. I am just trying to throw some at you for the sake of conversation and feed back.

[Wilber]

Stalinist time warp. One of the last vestiges of Stalinism and its remained around as long as it has because in short, North Korea had and has no natural resources of interest to anyone. If it had huge lithium deposits like Afganistan or was strategically placed to facilitate an oil pipeline like Afghanistan or had huge oil deposits like Iraq, it would have much more people concerned.

I will also say this and I am serious about it, I also think if it was a caucasian European country with the sheer number of starving people that are present in North Korea now, the West would react differently.

I am not suggesting the West is deliberately racist but the fact is when non white people starve-they do not solicit the same reaction as white people and I think that is human nature-the closer people look to us and live to us, the more we care-the further away they live and the more different they look, the less we care. I think that is human nature-we see more wars fought between people of different races then between the same race.

Now when I use the word race, I use the old subjective appearance construct because I appreciate biologically it has been disproven. I also refer to the studies of Konrad Lorenz and others who noticed it was harder for someone to kill someone who looks more like them or reminds them of someone in their family.

From a distance, the North Korean can look like a demon-a strange creature that takes on almost surrealistic characteristics particularly when they goose step and march and engage in their propoganda marches and mass population displays.

I think that fuels part of the disconnect between the West and North Korea and its far different way of doing things than we do.

Now that is a half-asped attempt. I appreciate there are far more complex theories as well. I am just trying to throw some at you for the sake of conversation and feed back.

OK then, explain South Korea and Japan. Demonizing ones enemy is not new or racial. It has been done by every society in history. The simple fact is there are regimes which victimize their own people.

[Shwa]

Mewanwhile, back in the news...

U.S. cooperation with South could mean nuclear war: North Korea

Meanwhile, North Korea’s main party newspaper, the Rodong Sinmun, carried a commentary that described U.S.-South Korea military cooperation as “nothing but treachery escalating the tension between the North and the South and bringing the dark clouds of a nuclear war to hang over the Korean Peninsula.”

On perpetual war footing, North Korea makes frequent statements indicating that the region is headed for disaster. In 2004, Pyongyang threatened to turn Japan into a “nuclear sea of fire.” Two years later it pledged to “mercilessly wipe out” the United States in the event of war. The North frequently threatens to turn Seoul into a “sea of flames.”

So are they heading for a sea of flames or an ocean of rhetoric?