North & South Korea War

[dre]

Plus... one could argue that this isn't like Afghanistan at all. If China is on board, this whole operation should take a few weeks, cost a few thousand and then we can get back to business. NK's have no place to escape to...

Plus... one could argue that this isn't like Afghanistan at all. If China is on board, this whole operation should take a few weeks, cost a few thousand and then we can get back to business. NK's have no place to escape to...

Yeah Iv heard that before. You live in fantasy land.

[Shwa]

I've already explained that North Korea isn't a market. When people can't even afford food at government subsidised prices, how can they be viewed as a viable market? Workforce? How can they be viewed as a workforce when they're all underfed, and after a war, presumably, half dead?

Feed them, give them jobs, set up stores. People are pretty resiliant. When there is a plan. A lot of hand wringing isn't very useful.

Regime changes take years to happen. People or workers from within the government just don't spontaneously rise up and oust the oppressors.

Some regime changes happen over night. It called 'elections.'

As for why people would want to take over, well, power abhors a vacuum. Like I said, there will always be money in North Korea, it just depends on who it is. If you do what you want to do, someone within the leadership will have the money to rebuild the palaces, buy new mercedes and yes, import the same amount of Hennesy cognac.

That is my plan, while there is a power vacuum, let the Chinese go into, er... "help."

Yet you just questioned that they weren't.

No, I meant "Meh, they all are" in the sense that you can't let that stop a good thing.

Well, it was Il Duce, and that's a pretty selective memory. What about Hitler? Tens of thousands in Berlin killed themselves because they didn't want to live in a world without National Socialism. What about the millions who fought for Stalin? Or Mao, or Ho Chi Minh?

Right, Il Duce. There's that Spanish background messing me up again, sorry.

As for what the millions are fighting for, you are listing leaders and leadership. I am saying cut the head off the beast so the people basically have a choice of some effed up ideology that is keeping them starving in tatters or they can join the rest of the party. We'll make room for them. Hey, even when the German leadership was decimated after WWII, the Germans got in the game pretty quickly.

[Shwa]

Yeah Iv heard that before. You live in fantasy land.

Third time's the charm dre, come on now.

[bush_cheney2004]

That attitude is gonna land you in a world of hurt, and has already caused US currency to lose half its value over the last few years.

In the real world not being able to afford something IS a pretty damn good reason not to buy it.

I dont wanna pay one god damn dime to liberate north koreans.

I will send one dime...Canadian.

[nicky10013]

Feed them, give them jobs, set up stores. People are pretty resiliant. When there is a plan. A lot of hand wringing isn't very useful.

Neither is killing them.

Some regime changes happen over night. It called 'elections.'

I was referring to authoritarian/totalitarian states.

That is my plan, while there is a power vacuum, let the Chinese go into, er... "help."

They won't.

No, I meant "Meh, they all are" in the sense that you can't let that stop a good thing.

Killing people so they can be free? Yeah, in my book that isn't a good thing.

Right, Il Duce. There's that Spanish background messing me up again, sorry.

As for what the millions are fighting for, you are listing leaders and leadership. I am saying cut the head off the beast so the people basically have a choice of some effed up ideology that is keeping them starving in tatters or they can join the rest of the party. We'll make room for them. Hey, even when the German leadership was decimated after WWII, the Germans got in the game pretty quickly.

No the, Germans didn't. Denazification programmes were abject failures. Even into the 1950s, German's believed Nazism was a good thing. 37% believed that the extermination of the Jews was right. They got on their feet economically but didn't deal with their issues until much later. Even then, Germany is a special case. It has rich resources and had a previous history with democracy. It allowed for an economic rebound which propped up free institutions. Those things don't exist in North Korea.

What people fail to understand that totalitarian dictatorships the likes of Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia, there isn't one group or a small group of people responsible. The entire nation is. The systems of governance permeates down through to every facet of society. Sure Kim is a large part of that but this system wouldn't exist without the devote actions of state and local party leaders, and local party organizations who act on behalf of the central government. North Korean society is corrupted to the bones. Destroying the top leadership won't change that.

Edited November 30, 2010 by nicky10013

[Shwa]

Neither is killing them.

True. But feeding them, giving them work and currency to buy goods, give them access to the rest of the globe, these things are far better than either killing them or wringing one's hands in crisis and doing nothing.

I was referring to authoritarian/totalitarian states.

Sure, they have their day, but change does come in one form or another and that is a pretty clear picture from history wouldn't you agree? No one said that it doesn't come with some cost or some pain. Regime changes rarely do.

They won't.

You don't know that.

Killing people so they can be free? Yeah, in my book that isn't a good thing.

Have I advocated for massive civilian casualties here? What you are saying is that any attack on NK will inevitably result in an all out destructive war with millions dead. That is your 'hell' scenario. But make no mistake, it is your scenario. If you want to create straw men to attack, its your bayonet to use.

No the, Germans didn't. Denazification programmes were abject failures. Even into the 1950s, German's believed Nazism was a good thing. 37% believed that the extermination of the Jews was right. They got on their feet economically but didn't deal with their issues until much later. Even then, Germany is a special case. It has rich resources and had a previous history with democracy. It allowed for an economic rebound which propped up free institutions. Those things don't exist in North Korea.

Korea has it's own history and I am sure plenty of yuan will help them over the hump.

What people fail to understand that totalitarian dictatorships the likes of Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia, there isn't one group or a small group of people responsible. The entire nation is. The systems of governance permeates down through to every facet of society. Sure Kim is a large part of that but this system wouldn't exist without the devote actions of state and local party leaders, and local party organizations who act on behalf of the central government. North Korean society is corrupted to the bones. Destroying the top leadership won't change that.

No, but taking the head off the beast will create a window for change. If the society is as corrupt as you say, then it is inevitable that some other cadre will have to come in a help them along. Whether it is China, South Korea or an Asian Coalition.

You know there was a time I heard the same arguments about the Soviet Union way back in the day. And I am not talking about some valid insight on internet forums, but published experts, scholars, seminars, the whole nine yards. At one time the prevailing opinion was that entire society of the Soviet Union was "corrupted to the bones." But history suggests otherwise.

Now, whether we take action today or let some brave unionist dockworkers in Nampho say enough is enough in a few years, we might as well be positive about the outcomes. And the positive outcome, IMO, is the removal of the Jong regime. One way or another, they gotta go. The sooner, the better.

[Wild Bill]

True. But feeding them, giving them work and currency to buy goods, give them access to the rest of the globe, these things are far better than either killing them or wringing one's hands in crisis and doing nothing.

Is that your idea of a solution? We feed the NK people so their government can use the money to buy nukes?

You know that the bags of rice are emptied at the border into new containers, so that the people of NK don't know it came from an outside country! Or it's taken for to feed the army first and the common people second.

Isn't this more like being an alcoholic's 'enabler', perpetuating the problem and allowing it to grow?

[Shwa]

Is that your idea of a solution? We feed the NK people so their government can use the money to buy nukes?

You know that the bags of rice are emptied at the border into new containers, so that the people of NK don't know it came from an outside country! Or it's taken for to feed the army first and the common people second.

Isn't this more like being an alcoholic's 'enabler', perpetuating the problem and allowing it to grow?

Seriously Bill, try to follow along or don't comment on isolated bits of information out of context.

Here is an example of what I can do to your post:

feed the army first and the common people second

Is that your solution, to feed the NK army and starve the people?? You sound like a Kim Jong-il supporter.

[AngusThermopyle]

Right....because Canada doesn't have any "cruise missiles".

Actually BC, you are incorrect as to this point. We do indeed have cruise missiles. Our frigates mount the Harpoon block 1c cruise missiles in the standard twin mount four pack launchers.

[M.Dancer]

Actually BC, you are incorrect as to this point. We do indeed have cruise missiles. Our frigates mount the Harpoon block 1c cruise missiles in the standard twin mount four pack launchers.

Technically, the harpoon is not a cruise missile. It's landscape reading sensors are rather flat, and it's ability to follow the terrain flounders...

[bush_cheney2004]

Technically, the harpoon is not a cruise missile. It's landscape reading sensors are rather flat, and it's ability to follow the terrain flounders...

Correct....AGM-84 Harpoon Block 1C is an anti-ship missile and does not have the extended (SLAM-ER) capabilities of later variants.

[nicky10013]

True. But feeding them, giving them work and currency to buy goods, give them access to the rest of the globe, these things are far better than either killing them or wringing one's hands in crisis and doing nothing.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, Western Europe is the exception rather than the rule. There was a precedent for that level of development. They knew how to do it and they just rebuilt. That doesn't exist in North Korea. Just showing up with money and expecting them to succeed will fail miserably.

Sure, they have their day, but change does come in one form or another and that is a pretty clear picture from history wouldn't you agree? No one said that it doesn't come with some cost or some pain. Regime changes rarely do.

I never said change doesn't come. I never said it wouldn't be painful, either. What I did say was that it doesn't happen overnight. Killing the Kim's will not produce the change you're looking for without certain economic conditions being met beforehand. Those economic conditions are generations away.

You don't know that.

Yeah, actually, we do. From the latest wikileaks dumps, there was a cable in which the Chinese Embassy declared they would support a unified peninsula directed from Seoul. \

Have I advocated for massive civilian casualties here? What you are saying is that any attack on NK will inevitably result in an all out destructive war with millions dead. That is your 'hell' scenario. But make no mistake, it is your scenario. If you want to create straw men to attack, its your bayonet to use.

So, what you're saying is that we shouldn't be expecting the worse when it comes to military campaigns? Did you learn nothing from Iraq?

Korea has it's own history and I am sure plenty of yuan will help them over the hump.

Like I said, money will not solve this problem.

No, but taking the head off the beast will create a window for change. If the society is as corrupt as you say, then it is inevitable that some other cadre will have to come in a help them along. Whether it is China, South Korea or an Asian Coalition.

No it won't. Even if another cadre does come in and takes down the Kim's, what's the point when another strongman will just come into power? All that death and waste of capital will be for nothing. Just like what's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.

You know there was a time I heard the same arguments about the Soviet Union way back in the day. And I am not talking about some valid insight on internet forums, but published experts, scholars, seminars, the whole nine yards. At one time the prevailing opinion was that entire society of the Soviet Union was "corrupted to the bones." But history suggests otherwise.

No, history suggest exactly that. Indeed, Russia is still corrupt to the core. Surprisingly enough, Stalin and his legacy still drives the nation's direction. The political discussion within Russia ebbs and flows, in tune with whether or not Stalin is or isn't in vogue. The thaw of the 60s undre Khrushchev and Glasnost under Gorbachev saw him condemned as the criminal he was. Neo-Stalinism under Brezhnev and the current authoritarians have rehabilitated Stalin. In an educational conference 2 years ago, Russian historians decreed that Stalin's reign was "mostly good." It's an extension of what happened after his death in the mid-1950s. After he died, it was widely said that there were two Russia's eye to eye - those who were in the Gulag and those who put them there. That's how widely Soviet society Stalin effected. That national trauma carries on to this day as there has been no real national discussion in the way which was carried out in say Germany, South Africa or even Rwanda today. In many ways, the perpetrators are still in government which is why Stalin is back in vogue. Most high members of Putin's administration were ex-KGB agents.

Not to mention the real corruption. The economy was so mismanaged that an illegal black market that popped up between plant managers so they could overfulfill their quotas set by the national plan. It was called the Blat or Blatnoy. It still exists. Not to mention the fact that nothing bureaucratically can be done without a bribe, or the fact that Russian police are some of the most corrupt in the world.

Considering NK's force labour population by percent has been thought to be larger than the USSR's, North Korea is going to have some incredibly serious issues to deal with.

Now, whether we take action today or let some brave unionist dockworkers in Nampho say enough is enough in a few years, we might as well be positive about the outcomes. And the positive outcome, IMO, is the removal of the Jong regime. One way or another, they gotta go. The sooner, the better.

No one is disputing that they should be brought down, however, we should realize that the situation is complex enough that perhaps war isn't the solution. That aim can be achieved through other means.

[Shwa]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, Western Europe is the exception rather than the rule. There was a precedent for that level of development. They knew how to do it and they just rebuilt. That doesn't exist in North Korea. Just showing up with money and expecting them to succeed will fail miserably.

Your chauvenism is unbecoming.

I never said change doesn't come. I never said it wouldn't be painful, either. What I did say was that it doesn't happen overnight. Killing the Kim's will not produce the change you're looking for without certain economic conditions being met beforehand. Those economic conditions are generations away.

Got to think positive here. The world has the means, the world just needs the will. Or an enterprising country or two that can recognize a diamond in the rough when they see it. Likely the US or China.

Yeah, actually, we do. From the latest wikileaks dumps, there was a cable in which the Chinese Embassy declared they would support a unified peninsula directed from Seoul.

So areyou saying China will support efforts to topple the Jong regime? Actually I like the Asian Coalition idea more and more. Share the pain and the rewards.

So, what you're saying is that we shouldn't be expecting the worse when it comes to military campaigns? Did you learn nothing from Iraq?

Saddam Hussein is the example of "the worse when it comes from miltary campaigns." However, learning from Iraq is a perfect example of how to approach sitations generally. NK is not Iraq.

Like I said, money will not solve this problem.

No, but it will help immensely. Especially lots of it.

No it won't. Even if another cadre does come in and takes down the Kim's, what's the point when another strongman will just come into power? All that death and waste of capital will be for nothing. Just like what's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.

Your presumption is based on a one-to-one swap of power. I have already indicated that a more world-friendly Chinese guided (or Asian Coalition guided) cadre is fine and will get the NK's to the party.

No, history suggest exactly that. Indeed, Russia is still corrupt to the core. Surprisingly enough, Stalin and his legacy still drives the nation's direction. The political discussion within Russia ebbs and flows, in tune with whether or not Stalin is or isn't in vogue. The thaw of the 60s undre Khrushchev and Glasnost under Gorbachev saw him condemned as the criminal he was. Neo-Stalinism under Brezhnev and the current authoritarians have rehabilitated Stalin. In an educational conference 2 years ago, Russian historians decreed that Stalin's reign was "mostly good." It's an extension of what happened after his death in the mid-1950s. After he died, it was widely said that there were two Russia's eye to eye - those who were in the Gulag and those who put them there. That's how widely Soviet society Stalin effected. That national trauma carries on to this day as there has been no real national discussion in the way which was carried out in say Germany, South Africa or even Rwanda today. In many ways, the perpetrators are still in government which is why Stalin is back in vogue. Most high members of Putin's administration were ex-KGB agents.

Not to mention the real corruption. The economy was so mismanaged that an illegal black market that popped up between plant managers so they could overfulfill their quotas set by the national plan. It was called the Blat or Blatnoy. It still exists. Not to mention the fact that nothing bureaucratically can be done without a bribe, or the fact that Russian police are some of the most corrupt in the world.

And there are 260 rapes in the US every day, almost 11 per hour. Sounds pretty corrupt to the bones to me. Or is it all relative in the end anyways?

I prefer Russia as it is, not as it was. But whether the Russian intellects want to debate Stalin and get all wistful is one thing, an actual power base is another. Besides, Marxism has some real utility when it comes to examination of social trends, but don't mistake me for a Stalinist.

Considering NK's force labour population by percent has been thought to be larger than the USSR's, North Korea is going to have some incredibly serious issues to deal with.

Yeah, especially when they are liberated, fed and are feeling well enough to go for some payback.

No one is disputing that they should be brought down, however, we should realize that the situation is complex enough that perhaps war isn't the solution. That aim can be achieved through other means.

I'm all ears! (or... eyes as it were)

[bush_cheney2004]

.....No one is disputing that they should be brought down, however, we should realize that the situation is complex enough that perhaps war isn't the solution. That aim can be achieved through other means.

These are the same kind of crocodile tears shed for dead and dying Iraqis. "Other means" have been just as or even more deadly.

[AngusThermopyle]

Technically, the harpoon is not a cruise missile. It's landscape reading sensors are rather flat, and it's ability to follow the terrain flounders...

Oops, sorry, you and BC are correct. I guess I'm just used to hearing the Harpoon refered to as a cruise missile. A case of disengage brain at its finest.

[blueblood]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, Western Europe is the exception rather than the rule. There was a precedent for that level of development. They knew how to do it and they just rebuilt. That doesn't exist in North Korea. Just showing up with money and expecting them to succeed will fail miserably.

South Korea after the Korean war, was a warzone comparable to Haiti. As was Vietnam after its war. How is it that these South East Asian countries are able to grow their economies after periods of war and little to no international aid?

If there is a Korean War 2 and when the North loses, I can see rush of factory building due to the fact that South Korea will have inherited scores of dirt cheap labour. It would take another 50 or so years until the North would enjoy the same standard of living as the south.

However, if a war were to take place, people would die and a lot of them. That's just war.

[ToadBrother]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, Western Europe is the exception rather than the rule. There was a precedent for that level of development. They knew how to do it and they just rebuilt. That doesn't exist in North Korea. Just showing up with money and expecting them to succeed will fail miserably.

Surely East Germany's integration into West Germany is a fair example. Yes, East Germany wasn't as much a basket case as NK, but it was still a pretty big basket case. The transition hasn't been easy, it cost West Germany significant amounts of cash, lead to some pretty severe social destabilization, and yet at the end of the day, even with the latest economic woes, Germany is an economic power house.

The situation isn't that different in the Korean Peninsula. Yes, reintegration will be expensive, there will be incredible social dislocation, because NK is ultimately an economic basket case. And yet SK surely will have the wealth, and the goodwill of other nations (key here appears to be that China will offer support to a unified Korea run out of Seoul).

Quite frankly if we can find a way to wind down the NK regime and unify the two Koreas, and if we do indeed have China onboard, then I think it behooves Canada and all the UN partners who fought the Korean War to finally bring a real end to this conflict, reunite the Koreas and give the NK the freedom they have been deprived of so long.

The point is that we wouldn't be building a new state, but rather we would, like in Germany, be integrating a defunct state into a functioning one.

Edited November 30, 2010 by ToadBrother

[ToadBrother]

No one is disputing that they should be brought down, however, we should realize that the situation is complex enough that perhaps war isn't the solution. That aim can be achieved through other means.

It's up to North Korea how this plays out. All anyone else can do is react. The problem is no one is quite sure what the hell is going on. A few months ago everyone figured that Kim Jong-il had mapped out the succession, that all the generals were on board and things would proceed as they always have. Now some experts at least are wondering if we're not seeing the outward signs of a major struggle. The revelation that China is clearly ready to back a reunification via Seoul suggests a number of possibilities; that perhaps some elements in the regime want to go this route, that other elements are clearly unwilling, no matter whether they lose their long-standing alliance with China, to bend their knees to Seoul.

To automatically assume that somehow the US or any other outside power can decide how this plays out is naive to the point of absurdity. All anyone can do is wait and see and signal to NK that if it decides to repudiate the Ceasefire, there's little choice on the part of the South and its allies to react in kind. What other choice is there? To step back and let the North wantonly shell the South until it gets what it wants (whatever it is exactly that it wants, nobody is quite clear on that one either)?

[nicky10013]

Your chauvenism is unbecoming.

Since when is the truth chauvenism?

Got to think positive here. The world has the means, the world just needs the will. Or an enterprising country or two that can recognize a diamond in the rough when they see it. Likely the US or China.

The situation is far more complicated. Just rolling up our sleeves with a "git er done" type of attitude won't work.

So areyou saying China will support efforts to topple the Jong regime? Actually I like the Asian Coalition idea more and more. Share the pain and the rewards.

Nope, but it'll accept the outcome of a regime change.

Saddam Hussein is the example of "the worse when it comes from miltary campaigns." However, learning from Iraq is a perfect example of how to approach sitations generally. NK is not Iraq.

Did I say Iraq was North Korea? I merely made the point that general lessons learned from Iraq can be used in future engagements - the biggest of which is we shouldn't be waltzing into countries believing that we're going to be greeted by people handing us flowers. To do anything other than planning for the worst is to not be prepared at all.

No, but it will help immensely. Especially lots of it.

Yeah not really. No amount of money can teach the Koreans how to run an economy.

Your presumption is based on a one-to-one swap of power. I have already indicated that a more world-friendly Chinese guided (or Asian Coalition guided) cadre is fine and will get the NK's to the party.

But they won't. China doesn't care who runs Korea as long as it doesn't bother China. They're not going to get involved. South Korea can't get involved because it means war. Notice how after the sinking of the Cheonan South Korea said they'd retaliate after the next provocation? Notice how they're saying the exact same thing now after that very provocation? This goes to show exactly how much South Korea wants to change regimes by force.

South Korea also do not want reunification under a German model. They don't want to bankrupt themselves rebuilding North Korea. Nor for that matter, does the rest of the world. So, your assumption there will be piles of money, other than the fact that it simply won't work, is besides the point because there won't be any piles of money to begin with.

And there are 260 rapes in the US every day, almost 11 per hour. Sounds pretty corrupt to the bones to me. Or is it all relative in the end anyways?

I prefer Russia as it is, not as it was. But whether the Russian intellects want to debate Stalin and get all wistful is one thing, an actual power base is another. Besides, Marxism has some real utility when it comes to examination of social trends, but don't mistake me for a Stalinist.

You're kidding me right? You're comparing regular crime in the US (which occured in the Soviet Union as well) to Stalin's brutal repressions and genocide? You're saying that rape, as horrible as it is, is the same thing as sending 20 million people to the Gulag?

Let's talk about rape inside the gulag. Guards raped women, other prisoners raped women. More established men raped children. The boat ride to the gold mines of Kolyma, it was almost a tradition for groups of men to rush the women's compartment, raping the entirety of the compartment, leaving quite a few dead. Both inside and outside, women basically prostituted themselves so they wouldn't get harsh work details which certainly see them starve to death. The prostituted themselves so they wouldn't be sent to a family camp for relatives of enemies of the state. They were ostracised from their home and family due to fear of being rounded up themselves.

So, where in US society does this type of activity happen?

I don't think you have a full comprehension of how seriously compromised Soviet Society was. The results are still haunting Russia to this day. You may think of it as some kind of academic exercise, but it's a very real phenomenon. Just because you can't understand that, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Yeah, especially when they are liberated, fed and are feeling well enough to go for some payback.

You realize that liberation and fed and feeling well will take generations, right? Who wants payback after 60 years?

I'm all ears! (or... eyes as it were)

We've dealt with North Korea in every way possible except for one. We need to cooperate and send more aid. You may say hey, this is crazy, but it's not about propping up the regime, it's about helping the people. There are private and public western aid organizations currently operating with North Koreans at this very minute. We need to build up trust with the regime so more can get in.

Why? Because all authoritarian governments are built on myths which are reinforced by propaganda. If you deligitimize the propaganda, you deligitimize the entire state. Since NK propaganda is almost solely focused on the Yankee Imperialist Agressor, a benevolent US that helps the people of NK accomplishes that. When they see US and western Aid workers and realize they're not the devil, they'll start asking questions. You also get side benefits of a people who are better fed, economic education will help create a sustainable economy on which a middle class can be built. The middle class is the absolute lynch pin of any modern democracy. Create that and sustainable change will come. It'll take years, but it can be done. Just knocking out a leader, throwing money at the people and hoping it all turns out fine won't work because the people won't know what to make of the change or how to use the money to create self-perpetuating economic growth. What we give them will help in the short term, but will peter out. We'd leave due to the gigantic costs in terms of blood and treasure and in the end since there wasn't a solid base for free institutions to be built on, North Korea, like Iraq and Afghanistan will, will fall back into authortarianism negating any good work done.

Edited November 30, 2010 by nicky10013

[nicky10013]

It's up to North Korea how this plays out. All anyone else can do is react. The problem is no one is quite sure what the hell is going on. A few months ago everyone figured that Kim Jong-il had mapped out the succession, that all the generals were on board and things would proceed as they always have. Now some experts at least are wondering if we're not seeing the outward signs of a major struggle. The revelation that China is clearly ready to back a reunification via Seoul suggests a number of possibilities; that perhaps some elements in the regime want to go this route, that other elements are clearly unwilling, no matter whether they lose their long-standing alliance with China, to bend their knees to Seoul.

I really don't see the signs of a power struggle. Kim Jong Il went through the same process. He came in and flexed some muscle to get his "credentials." Kim Jong Ils route was terrorism. He kidnapped Japanese citizens and blew up an airliner. Kim Jong Un is actually following a startlingly similar path.

To automatically assume that somehow the US or any other outside power can decide how this plays out is naive to the point of absurdity. All anyone can do is wait and see and signal to NK that if it decides to repudiate the Ceasefire, there's little choice on the part of the South and its allies to react in kind. What other choice is there? To step back and let the North wantonly shell the South until it gets what it wants (whatever it is exactly that it wants, nobody is quite clear on that one either)?

There isn't much choice. It's clear that neither the South Koreans or the US wants war, sanctions have failed miserably. What other route is there to go other than to improve relations? Before Lee Myung-Bak came into power claiming that he wasn't going to take any shit from the north, North-South relations were at their best at any point in the past 50 years. Hyundai opened up an industrial park to build cars in North Korea and there were several exchanges to allow family members to meet up. It's proof that North Korea is no where near as crazy as everyone claims. Like I said, they know what they're doing. Previous good will has been met by good will in return. It's the only area where we've had success so why discount trying it in the future?

[nicky10013]

South Korea after the Korean war, was a warzone comparable to Haiti. As was Vietnam after its war. How is it that these South East Asian countries are able to grow their economies after periods of war and little to no international aid?

If there is a Korean War 2 and when the North loses, I can see rush of factory building due to the fact that South Korea will have inherited scores of dirt cheap labour. It would take another 50 or so years until the North would enjoy the same standard of living as the south.

However, if a war were to take place, people would die and a lot of them. That's just war.

No, not quite. South Korea has refused that it will accept any type of reunification until the economies of the North and South are roughly equal.

[nicky10013]

Surely East Germany's integration into West Germany is a fair example. Yes, East Germany wasn't as much a basket case as NK, but it was still a pretty big basket case. The transition hasn't been easy, it cost West Germany significant amounts of cash, lead to some pretty severe social destabilization, and yet at the end of the day, even with the latest economic woes, Germany is an economic power house.

The situation isn't that different in the Korean Peninsula. Yes, reintegration will be expensive, there will be incredible social dislocation, because NK is ultimately an economic basket case. And yet SK surely will have the wealth, and the goodwill of other nations (key here appears to be that China will offer support to a unified Korea run out of Seoul).

Quite frankly if we can find a way to wind down the NK regime and unify the two Koreas, and if we do indeed have China onboard, then I think it behooves Canada and all the UN partners who fought the Korean War to finally bring a real end to this conflict, reunite the Koreas and give the NK the freedom they have been deprived of so long.

The point is that we wouldn't be building a new state, but rather we would, like in Germany, be integrating a defunct state into a functioning one.

South Korea has bluntly refused any reunification based on the German Model. They don't want to go bankrupt rebuilding the North.

[Smallc]

Oops, sorry, you and BC are correct. I guess I'm just used to hearing the Harpoon refered to as a cruise missile. A case of disengage brain at its finest.

If I'm not mistaken, the launchers on our destroyers could be used to launch cruise missiles.

[M.Dancer]

If I'm not mistaken, the launchers on our destroyers could be used to launch cruise missiles.

You are....

Harppon

Weight 1,523 lb (691 kg) with booster

Length Air launched: 12.6 ft (3.8 m); Surface and submarine launched: 15 ft (4.6 m)

Diameter 1.1 ft (0.34 m)

Tomahawk

Weight 1,440 kilograms (3,200 lb)

Length Without booster: 5.56 m

With booster: 6.25 m

Diameter 0.52 m

Edited November 30, 2010 by M.Dancer

[Oleg Bach]

It is preturbing that the solution has and always will be in the hands of China..all China has to do is send one message that might read..."Shut up and behave yourself or we will destroy your sick little mafia out post"...but no..Much the way Saudi Arabia funds and facilitates terrorism - China likes to use North Korea as a stick with a pin on it...People have to decide what is more important . Justice or Money? That is not much of a decision ...people always take food first...and justice second..."like a sad dog you sit under your corrupt masters table waiting for a crumb of bread to fall".