Harper's 16 Billion Dollar Fighter Jet Purchase Plan

[Wilber]

Tornado??? we're talking about the Typhoon here, how are you going to have a fly off when the F35 isn't even ready for production...and yes the Typhoon will do all the missions required it's a multi-role aircraft not only a air to air...from every acount I can find and I've searched through many the Typhoon is a far better plane than the F35 will be, it appears to be as good if not better than the F22, it has gone up against the F22 but reports of the meetings are being supressed for security reasons, and no doubt political as well it's a half to a third less money than the F22...what I have found is the Typhoon can detect the F22 at range with IR detection which nulifies the stealth, the F35's stealth is not as good as the F22's

Yes, I meant the Typhoon. My bad. You are basing your opinions on what you find on the net, a lot of them blogs. The only way those questions can be answered for sure would be in a head to head competition. If you can't do a head to head competition you have to use your judgment based on verifiable information.

Nothing can stay invisible for ever. As long as your stealth is better than the other guys, you will probably see him first and so will your weapons. You get the first shot. It's always been that way since the only detection apparatus was the MK 1 eyeball. It's no good being a better dog fighter if you can't get close enough to use it or don't see the other guy coming. There is a lot more to air to air fighting than just being able to maneuver.

[capricorn]

“Canada is in danger of falling back into its historic role of hewers of wood and drawers of water with all the technological advances in countries like India and China,” he warned. “We can’t afford to lose ground in the aerospace industry, and our involvement in this contract will create new jobs and opportunities in that and associated industries."

Who said that? LIBERAL Senator Colin Kenny.

“When purchasing military equipment, an open, transparent, competitive bidding process is the best way to obtain value for money. Except when it isn’t. And when it comes to updating Canada’s aging fleet of CF-18 fighter jets, it surely isn’t,” Sen. Colin Kenny says.

Sen. Kenny is not without considerable expertise on all matters military. He served as chair of the Senate’s National Security and Defence Committee for eight years, generating a small mountain of well-informed reports.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/10/29/don-martin-liberal-senator-shreds-ignatieffs-position-on-f-35s/

If this doesn't give Ignatieff a bout of acute indigestion I don't know what will.

[wyly]

Yes, I meant the Typhoon. My bad. You are basing your opinions on what you find on the net, a lot of them blogs. The only way those questions can be answered for sure would be in a head to head competition. If you can't do a head to head competition you have to use your judgment based on verifiable information.

when did we get verifiable information on the F35 and other options?..when did the DND have a head to head competition?...the F35 has never gone head to head with any opponent....

the Typhoon has gone head to head with the F22 but that's being kept under wraps, but even in that case there was never any chance the USA was going to buy anything made in europe they have a military industrial complex to support...Antonov won a competition in the US but the air force was told redo the competition, the government wanted an american contractor to win....the F35 has had no competition, we have no idea if it's the best deal out there, if we're committed to price for an equal dollar value the Typhoon appears to be a much much better plane...it appears we're buying the F35 because the americans are not because it's the best for us or the best plane out there, or the best value...

Nothing can stay invisible for ever. As long as your stealth is better than the other guys, you will probably see him first and so will your weapons. You get the first shot. It's always been that way since the only detection apparatus was the MK 1 eyeball. It's no good being a better dog fighter if you can't get close enough to use it or don't see the other guy coming. There is a lot more to air to air fighting than just being able to maneuver.

but that's no more verifiable than what I've come across, ie: the Typhoon picking up the F22 at range with IR, and there is no reason to doubt the russian technology cannot do the same...

[Wilber]

the Typhoon has gone head to head with the F22 but that's being kept under wraps, but even in that case there was never any chance the USA was going to buy anything made in europe they have a military industrial complex to support...Antonov won a competition in the US but the air force was told redo the competition, the government wanted an american contractor to win....the F35 has had no competition, we have no idea if it's the best deal out there, if we're committed to price for an equal dollar value the Typhoon appears to be a much much better plane...it appears we're buying the F35 because the americans are not because it's the best for us or the best plane out there, or the best value...

Yes it's all a great conspiracy just like the 9/11 Truthies.

Re: the Antonov. I have to admit that I have never been in the military but after spending a good 35 years of my life maintaining and flying large transport aircraft, I thought I had a pretty good idea of how they worked and were crewed. Apparently not.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Wilber

[bush_cheney2004]

....we have no idea if it's the best deal out there, if we're committed to price for an equal dollar value the Typhoon appears to be a much much better plane...it appears we're buying the F35 because the americans are not because it's the best for us or the best plane out there, or the best value...

I am certain there would be just as much bitching about this if the choice had been Typhoon....or anything else. Such is the nature of Canadian DND procurments. Everyone knows that the best information and critical analysis can be had from internet aviation blogs!

[wyly]

Yes it's all a great conspiracy just like the 9/11 Truthies.

conspiracy...no common sense any military is going to hide their equipment's optimum performance or deficiencies a closely guarded secret...

if your plane has weaknesses/limitations you're not going to want that known, you exaggerate how wonderful it is... at the same time if it's fantastic plane you want to keep it's true abilities secret as long as possible...

[Wilber]

conspiracy...no common sense any military is going to hide their equipment's optimum performance or deficiencies a closely guarded secret...

if your plane has weaknesses/limitations you're not going to want that known, you exaggerate how wonderful it is... at the same time if it's fantastic plane you want to keep it's true abilities secret as long as possible...

So why do you believe everything you find on a blog?

[YEGmann]

the F35 has never gone head to head with any opponent....

Wrong. F-35 won JSF tender.

the Typhoon has gone head to head with the F22 but that's being kept under wraps,

When? What are you talking about?

but even in that case there was never any chance the USA was going to buy anything made in europe they have a military industrial complex to support...

Wrong. There are some european stuff in the US military: AV-8 Harrier and C-27 Spartan. US Coast Guard operates European planes and helicopters.

Quite to contrary, these are Europeans who protect their aerospace indusry and are ready to bunkrupt themselves with projects like A400M and Eurofighter Typhoon, just for not to buy American planes.

Antonov won a competition in the US but the air force was told redo the competition, the government wanted an american contractor to win....

Lol! Antonov never won any competition in the US. Did you mean EADS? The story is a little bit more complicated than you are trying to present.

[nicky10013]

Using an attempted terrorist attack to shill for new jets? Hell yes!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/tories-use-terror-plot-as-ammunition-in-fighter-jet-battle/article1779354/

[Topaz]

This topic has everyone coming out and giving their opinion and here's an former RCAF retired pilot having his view and some on here probably won't like it including the Harper government. http://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters/article/883396--f-35-fighters-are-not-what-we-need

[Topaz]

Yesn another view from someone that worked on the Arrow. http://www.nsnews.com/Pentagon+plays+Canada+sucker+with+purchase/3753788/story.html

[bush_cheney2004]

This topic has everyone coming out and giving their opinion and here's an former RCAF retired pilot having his view and some on here probably won't like it including the Harper government.

Please inform your retired RCAF expert that the Fairchild A-10 has been out of production since the mid 1980's....service life extension is underway for American airframes with new wings and subsystem upgrades. None have been exported to date.

Canada flew CAP missions during the Gulf War, over Bosnia, and during NATO's action in Kosovo (1999)....well past the 1970's. As did other NATO partners, which continue to procure air superiority and strike aircraft.

Methinks the retired RCAF pilot flew cargo, as there is much enthusiasm for very expensive Globemaster and Hercules procurements, yet these were subject to similar penny pinching criticism.

[eyeball]

Using an attempted terrorist attack to shill for new jets? Hell yes!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/tories-use-terror-plot-as-ammunition-in-fighter-jet-battle/article1779354/

Those who say there is no need at all for replacements must explain what they would have Canada do the next time a similar situation arises.

Watch the incoming plane on radar. What does escorting a plane in a similar situation do for us that a radar can't accomplish?

Edited October 31, 2010 by eyeball

[Wilber]

Watch the incoming plane on radar. What does escorting a plane in a similar situation do for us that a radar can't accomplish?

Force it to land or shoot it down, that is why it is there.

[DrGreenthumb]

Force it to land or shoot it down, that is why it is there.

We don't need the world's fastest jet or stealth capability to do that.

[Wilber]

We don't need the world's fastest jet or stealth capability to do that.

We don't need F-18's either, but that's not the issue.

[William Ashley]

Just an update on this Israel has gotten an extra 3 billion in free F35's (up to around 6 billion of f35's in military aid)

wow funny how israel just scored 2/3rds of Canada commitment with only needing to only finish the houses they are building in the west bank over the next 90 days, then the US won't ask them to stop again?

Maybe Canada should start to mess around with Greenland and see what it can rustle up. Maybe plant a few churches and create a faith based on the destruction of greenland by global warming and pigmies? The little people will spell the end of the world when they use their magic lenses from the cores of the icesheets against them.

The canadian mindset of this only feels like cheap whore.

Since when is Israel G-ds gift to man? or perhaps YWH's gift to man?

I'm actually fairly surprised it seems Israel is about 78 billion dollars in debt. Or about 1/10th of Canada debt while 1/5th its size.. hold on according to this Canada has twice as much per capital debt as Israel.. yet Israel gets 6 billion in free f35's for harassing their autonomous neighbor and Canada pays 16 billion?

Nothing against Israel but Canada doesn't seem to be getting treated fairly and Canada's war against Islam ain't exactly making it less of a terror target, or rather target for revenge, with the high number of rapes and murders done overseas, not only the sexual harassment on our own forces but also on the enemy.

http://www.indexmundi.com/israel/public_debt.html

Maybe Quebec separatism isn't such a bad thing.

Sucks to be Japan right about now on debt.. check this out

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=is&v=143

And my apologies if my comments are offensive to anyone it merely indicates some feelings on the subject of the f35 purchases, after reading an article on Israels new deal for f35s, and how this contrasts against my awareness of the Canadian deal.

http://www.themarknews.com/articles/2664-sexual-harassment-common-of-afghan-bases-soldier-said

My condolences goes out to anyone who suffered hardship under any of the above peoples or may in the future.

Edited November 16, 2010 by William Ashley

[Army Guy]

William:

WOW, what a rant, more like a whine, And here i thought you were a teacher and yet you've done no research into the so called problem or even looked at the big picture. All you can see is Israel is getting thier aircraft for cheaper, so you start pionting fingers at what you don't understand kicking your feet and raising a shit storm....

You even go as far as saying Canada is no less a terror target than Israel, now that is just talking out your ass, perhaps you can show us a valid quote for that one....stats showing both Nations have the same terror problems.. i take it you have not been to Israel, walked the streets, gone to the markets, or to gone to the airport....and compared the two countries, like i said before out your ass.

Nothing against Israel but Canada doesn't seem to be getting treated fairly and Canada's war against Islam ain't exactly making it less of a terror target, or rather target for revenge, with the high number of rapes and murders done overseas, not only the sexual harassment on our own forces but also on the enemy

How we go from talking about being treated unfairly in the F-35 deal to rape and murders is beyond me, niether topics are even close....but once again you failed to do your research, and start pulling things out of your ass.

You even include a letter from Capt Goddard nice touch, but lets get some of the facts straight, first of it's not a Canadian base, it's a NATO base which holds 2500 Canadian soldiers, and 25,000 other NATO soldiers. And while sexual harrasment even Rape were evident in Camp, lets put that in context shall we , first off NO pers where allowed to roam the camp unarmed, every soldier had to have a wpn on them at all times, including when you went to eat, shower, or slept....so everyone was armed, well armed....next policy was for Canadian soldiers to travel in groups of 2 or more, and for the most part females were escorted, or also ttraveled in groups, these females are soldiers, they have the same training as thier male counter parts, corner them in a dark ally and you'll get your balls handed to you...Thier soldiers not soccer moms at the mall.

and while all this was going on not one case had been report of any Canadian soldier being a victim or party in any harrasment, or rape...

Was she concerned Yes she was, and she vented that through her letters, I'm not trying to down play her fears, and am lucky i'm a guy and did not have that extra worry to wiegh on me when we all had enough to think about out side the wire. But we were all Canadian soldiers and if something had happen to one of our own, i pity the poor bastard who had done it, as his head would have been on a pole for all to see....I think that all the other Contingents knew we could handle ourselfs on the battle field and kept clear of any Canadians....

We don't want your condolences we want you to get your facts straight.

[William Ashley]

Israel is getting thier aircraft for cheaper ...

For free. Not Canadian Free overseas base actually $300 million free, but like Free Free.

Like nothing, like nada, like zilch, like naught, like efes fs..

See you are starting to think in terms of Stephen Harper Economics.

(Not sure if their deal comes with parts, the only potentiial saving grace, from what I've heard about Israels potential economic inputs into these things - if Canada needs to pay 3/4ths their price to keep them flying over 20 years.) And we all know there will be a deathly hypersonic aircraft using scramjets on the market in a few years, after a few more years development

Edited November 16, 2010 by William Ashley

[Wilber]

Scramjets require supersonic airflow before they will work meaning aircraft using them will need other engines to get them to an altitude and speed where they can start to operate. If and when they are used it will be for hypersonic, near or sub orbital flight, not for fighters.

[Army Guy]

You think lockheed is giving away free jets and Canada should get in on the deal ? Somebody is paying for them, ask Uncle Sam why he is giving Israel jets....Then ask why Canada is paying for theirs ?

Maybe they will ask you why the US pays for 90 % of the costs for Norad, while Canada pays only 10 %...

Edited November 17, 2010 by Army Guy

[nicky10013]

You think lockheed is giving away free jets and Canada should get in on the deal ? Somebody is paying for them, ask Uncle Sam why he is giving Israel jets....Then ask why Canada is paying for theirs ?

Maybe they will ask you why the US pays for 90 % of the costs for Norad, while Canada pays only 10 %...

Maybe someone should be asking why we're only paying 10%. Perhaps it's because Canada has 10% of the population the US does. Perhaps it's because the US retains complete control over NORAD and always would.

[M.Dancer]

Perhaps it's because the US retains complete control over NORAD and always would.

Incorrect.

To accomplish these critically important missions, NORAD continually adjusts its structure to meet the demands of a changing world. The commander is appointed by, and is responsible to, both the U.S. president and the Canadian prime minister. The commander maintains his headquarters at Peterson Air Force Base, Colo. The NORAD-U.S. Northern Command (USNORTHCOM) Command Center serves as a central collection and coordination facility for a worldwide system of sensors designed to provide the commander and the leadership of Canada and the U.S. with an accurate picture of any aerospace threat. Three subordinate regional headquarters, located at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska, Canadian Forces Base, Winnipeg, Manitoba, and Tyndall Air Force Base, Florida, receive direction from the commander and control air operations within their respective areas of responsibility.

http://www.norad.mil/about/index.html

We are partners and without question, the US is the senior partner. The statement that the US has complete control is hyperbole.

[nicky10013]

Incorrect.

http://www.norad.mil/about/index.html

We are partners and without question, the US is the senior partner. The statement that the US has complete control is hyperbole.

So what you're telling me is that in case of a North American invasion or attack, the PM would have just as much say as the US President?

[M.Dancer]

So what you're telling me is that in case of a North American invasion or attack, the PM would have just as much say as the US President?

No, what you are telling me, in case of a NA attack, the PM would have no say...

Never the less, your claim that the US has complete control is false and proven so.