What form of government would you like to see?

[ToadBrother]

I'm in for it, with a couple of additions:

a) qualification - voter takes a quiz to qualify to a counted ballot. Perhaps links to information on the issue can be provided in the same context.

Yeah, that will inspire apathetic voters, Wikipedia-style voting.

b ) refinement - once a general choice has been established professionals refine and detalize it to the solution that will be implemented.

And who picks the experts?

[Michael Hardner]

Here's a few random ideas...

1) The Internet Direct Democracy

Rather than a representative system, everyone has a direct say in government, should they choose to utilize it. It would be structured as some sort of internet forum, where every citizen over a certain age is able to post ideas, proposals, and vote on them. Individuals who contribute more will have greater influence, while those who contribute less will have less influence.

This could actually work, but only if your voting public took active interest in discussion and researching the issues. We're nowhere near that.

And... you would still need a party responsible for owning the plan, a budget and so on or you will end up with "the tragedy of the commons"... IOW a country managed by many, owned by no-one and left to ruin with only finger-pointing remaining as a cultural touchstone.

[myata]

IOW a country managed by many, owned by no-one

Indeed that is my hope how the things will be in some far away future

and left to ruin with only finger-pointing remaining as a cultural touchstone.

where people have no more interest in useless politicking or finger pointing simply because they have so many other interesting and exciting things to fill their time with.

Imagine:

- an interest group has identified issue and presented it to a virtual citizens forum;

- alternative proposals created and presented by other interest groups;

- a self governing panel of experts have come together; experts know the worth of each other so no bulls.. would be tolerated (not like it's not impossible, take e.g. Internet forum, any number of free source software development sites);

- after qualified vote has happened, experts define solution; it's approved by the "government" that will ensure its execution.

Owned by no-one, what a dream!

[ToadBrother]

Indeed that is my hope how the things will be in some far away future

where people have no more interest in useless politicking or finger pointing simply because they have so many other interesting and exciting things to fill their time with.

Imagine:

- an interest group has identified issue and presented it to a virtual citizens forum;

- alternative proposals created and presented by other interest groups;

- a self governing panel of experts have come together; experts know the worth of each other so no bulls.. would be tolerated (not like it's not impossible, take e.g. Internet forum, any number of free source software development sites);

- after qualified vote has happened, experts define solution; it's approved by the "government" that will ensure its execution.

Owned by no-one, what a dream!

More like a fantasy, and a poorly thought out one at that.

[Michael Hardner]

Owned by no-one, what a dream!

Also known as 'Tragedy of the Commons'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

[Moonlight Graham]

Few people take the time and effort to see behind the headlines to what politicians are really doing, or have to understand the complexities of modern government, budgeting, and economics.

Very true. It's one of the reasons why having elected representatives is a good idea, as they can devote their day jobs to keeping up with this stuff. Working 8+ hours a day at an everyday job, spending an hour in rushhour traffic...then coming home and having to take care of a couple kids, making dinner, spend time with the wife, and take a few minutes to just relax doesn't leave a lot of time for hardworking adults with families to stay on top of the news as well as they should.

MP's etc. do this for us, and vote for us in Parliament.

In short, the universal electorate is, by and large, not competent to make intelligent decisions about who is to rule over them.

I would agree. However, a huge amount of the electorate chooses not to vote anyways. About 60% of voters turned out last election, so near 40% of the most apathetic and to a large degree the most uninformed voters didn't vote (though i realize some informed people don't vote, and some uniformed do vote also).

What form of gov't would i like? Something that fused the best of the presidential-congressional system of the U.S. with the Westminster system we have. The U.S. system is fundamentally very well conceived, better than the Westminster system for sure IMO, but i would change it by making it easier to get rid of the executive (as our system of responsible gov't does with a minority gov't). I'd also make much stricter campaign finance laws, since big business & interests have severely corrupted that system. Maybe i'd add a few more judges to the Supreme Court also, and of course get rid of the 2nd Amendment.

[dre]

The U.S. system is fundamentally very well conceived, better than the Westminster system for sure IMO

I disagree the US political system is profoundly broken, and nearly 80% of Americans think their government serves them very poorly, and voter turnout is among the lowest in the industrialized world.

I personally think Canada us MUCH better served by its political system and government.

[maple_leafs182]

That sounds like Anarcho-Syndicalism...It's a form of Leftist Libertarianism....

I just looked Anarcho-Syndicalism up, in some aspects it does seem similar to a resource based economy but it isn't the same.

Which is why there have been exceedingly few democracies of that type throughout history. Pretty much all modern democracies are constitutional representative democracies, generally containing some sort of bill of rights to constrain the state, for its own interests, or simply as the tool of the majority, from undermining or removing the rights of minorities. It is not, of course, perfect, and constitutions, or at least the interpretations of constitutions, change over time. Still, all in all, I'd say modern democracies have done a better job than just about any governmental system in history in preserving basic liberties, if for no other reason that they actually recognize basic liberties as an inherent aspect of those who live within the state.

The good thing about Socialism and Communism in society is the fascism that takes hold is obvious as appose to a Democracy where it is hidden behind money.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is nothing more then a Charter of Privileges. Either you have unlimited rights or you have no rights.

[bush_cheney2004]

I disagree the US political system is profoundly broken, and nearly 80% of Americans think their government serves them very poorly, and voter turnout is among the lowest in the industrialized world.

I personally think Canada us MUCH better served by its political system and government.

I sure hope so, because this idea would never fly in Canada:

...And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country.

[Jack Weber]

I just looked Anarcho-Syndicalism up, in some aspects it does seem similar to a resource based economy but it isn't the same.

The good thing about Socialism and Communism in society is the fascism that takes hold is obvious as appose to a Democracy where it is hidden behind money.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is nothing more then a Charter of Privileges. Either you have unlimited rights or you have no rights.

Well,I'm not saying I'm an Anarcho-Syndicalist,but I think what you are talking about is a devolution of the economic levers of power back to a more localized level?Unlike Statist Marxist,Anarcho-Syndicalists don't believe in any state at all.They don't believe in private property,for that matter.Historically,they are opposed to the authoritarian violence proposed,and usually enacted by,Marxist revolutionaries.A prime example of this is the Anarcho-Syndicalists in Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War.In fact,they basically did away with money for a short period of time.

Now,I would not say that Socialism or Communism become Fascism.While all three can be authoritarian,they come at that final destination from entirely opposite directions.Communism is all about state control of every single thing within that state.Fascism differs from this in 3 ways...

1.Citizens can usually own private property

2.There is some measure of free entreprise

3.There is a nationalist component that is not seen in a Communist state.

Now,I would agree with you that democracy has been hijacked by the corrupting influence of money.I believe we are heading into a form of Corporate Fascism,where the needs of corporations are supplanting the needs of different citizenries in democracies all over the world.

[Mr.Canada]

ATM I think that a very strong nationalist right wing government would serve us best at this most dangerous time. Something like Franco's Spain but just not as severe. The traitors to Canada need to be arrested immediately and tried for treason. The pandering to the special interests is to stop and police given expanded powers to weed out the traitors from the nationalists. Build prison camps for the traitors until they are put on trial where if found guilty will be executed or imprisoned depending on the severity of the treason.

Build up our military with equipment built by Canadians for Canadians. Shipyards, munitions, etc. Build Nuclear arms and Subs. Compulsory Military Service for all people over 18 for a min of 3 years.

Assert our Arctic sovereignty...with Military force if necessary. The days of Canada being bullied are over. Build a Far North Arctic Military outpost and ship/sub yard. It will be staffed by many Aboriginals, giving them meaningful work while cutting down the suicide rate. With this comes construction of infrastructure, housing for troops, new stores for the new military families. It will be the Aboriginals who will benefit the most. No longer will they have to pay $12 for 4 L of milk and $7 for a loaf of bread as it is now in the far North. With food being flown in only a few times a year. This is terrible and mustn't be allowed to continue.

Tear down all mosques and not allow any to be built until they allow a Church to be built in Saudi Arabia.

Hold State funded rallies to build up morale and belief in Canadians that we are indeed a great nation, capable of so much more then what we're doing. Parades with lines and lines of troops marching down our streets in rows to demonstrate Canada's new military power. No longer will Canada be laughed at internationally. We will now be respected on all foreign relation matters and not treated like the stupid American stepchild.

Find a tropical Caribbean country that wants to become a part of Canada. There we'll set up a Military base plus Canadians will have a nice spot to vacation with the same currency. Plus all those tourism dollars will help fund our home nation of Canada. We'll start looking at the neighboring islands and entice them to come under the Canadian flag as well.

Perhaps invade Cuba to wipe out the Castros and with them Communism, the curse of planet Earth. Using our new Tropical base asa sling shot to Cuba. After that Venezuela. Both those countries will then be under the Canadian Flag as well. After that we'll relax for a bit. Still hold rallies and parades to keep up morale and build up are Armed Forces back to where it was before the two wars.

By this time the countries around Cuba And Venezuela will get the message loud and clear. Be like us or be conquered, so I predict other countries in S. America and the Caribbean will start voting in strong right wing governments who will quickly ally themselves with Canada, a rising Superpower.

That is my vision, this would take years to accomplish mind you. Years to build up our Military alone to a proper level. The Americans have much to gain as well so they'd be quiet and would silence our critics.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[Moonlight Graham]

I disagree the US political system is profoundly broken, and nearly 80% of Americans think their government serves them very poorly, and voter turnout is among the lowest in the industrialized world.

I personally think Canada us MUCH better served by its political system and government.

How is the U.S. system "profoundly broken", beyond the things i mentioned? How is Canada's system much better?

IMO the Canadian system is profoundly broken, and nearly impossible to fix without bringing about even more problems.

I don't like having an unelected monarchy as our head of state, but turning Canada into a republic would have repercussions and cause possible deadlock between the PM and an elected president if they are from different parties. Our PM has way too much power for a large variety of reasons, ie: tight control over his party MP's & lawmaking ability since PM is a member of the legislature, PM appoints all federal judges, PM appoints all senators etc. Responsible gov't is nice, but that paired with having the PM as a member of the legislature means power and independence is taken away from individual MP's and turning them into trained clapping seals. I much prefer the separation of powers of the US. Our Senate is also virtually useless, and reforming it is a monumental task which would likely cause more problems that it solved.

It's actually amazing our system has works as well as it has given its flaws.

[eyeball]

Owned by no-one, what a dream!

Also known as 'Tragedy of the Commons'

Or owned by one, aka the 'Tragedy of Enclosure'.

I think privatization and the never ending drive to concentrate wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands will probably result in the development of a Borg-like collective more efficiently and totally than any of the usual socialist suspects could produce one. I wonder when we'll see the development of a corporation with artificial intelligence?

[Michael Hardner]

I think privatization and the never ending drive to concentrate wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands will probably result in the development of a Borg-like collective more efficiently and totally than any of the usual socialist suspects could produce one. I wonder when we'll see the development of a corporation with artificial intelligence?

In some cases, it's easier to deal with an owner than a bunch of disparate groups - especially if they're not governable.

Hardin’s thesis works only where there is no ownership.

[Jack Weber]

ATM I think that a very strong nationalist right wing government would serve us best at this most dangerous time. Something like Franco's Spain but just not as severe. The traitors to Canada need to be arrested immediately and tried for treason. The pandering to the special interests is to stop and police given expanded powers to weed out the traitors from the nationalists. Build prison camps for the traitors until they are put on trial where if found guilty will be executed or imprisoned depending on the severity of the treason.

Build up our military with equipment built by Canadians for Canadians. Shipyards, munitions, etc. Build Nuclear arms and Subs. Compulsory Military Service for all people over 18 for a min of 3 years.

Assert our Arctic sovereignty...with Military force if necessary. The days of Canada being bullied are over. Build a Far North Arctic Military outpost and ship/sub yard. It will be staffed by many Aboriginals, giving them meaningful work while cutting down the suicide rate. With this comes construction of infrastructure, housing for troops, new stores for the new military families. It will be the Aboriginals who will benefit the most. No longer will they have to pay $12 for 4 L of milk and $7 for a loaf of bread as it is now in the far North. With food being flown in only a few times a year. This is terrible and mustn't be allowed to continue.

Tear down all mosques and not allow any to be built until they allow a Church to be built in Saudi Arabia.

Hold State funded rallies to build up morale and belief in Canadians that we are indeed a great nation, capable of so much more then what we're doing. Parades with lines and lines of troops marching down our streets in rows to demonstrate Canada's new military power. No longer will Canada be laughed at internationally. We will now be respected on all foreign relation matters and not treated like the stupid American stepchild.

Find a tropical Caribbean country that wants to become a part of Canada. There we'll set up a Military base plus Canadians will have a nice spot to vacation with the same currency. Plus all those tourism dollars will help fund our home nation of Canada. We'll start looking at the neighboring islands and entice them to come under the Canadian flag as well.

Perhaps invade Cuba to wipe out the Castros and with them Communism, the curse of planet Earth. Using our new Tropical base asa sling shot to Cuba. After that Venezuela. Both those countries will then be under the Canadian Flag as well. After that we'll relax for a bit. Still hold rallies and parades to keep up morale and build up are Armed Forces back to where it was before the two wars.

By this time the countries around Cuba And Venezuela will get the message loud and clear. Be like us or be conquered, so I predict other countries in S. America and the Caribbean will start voting in strong right wing governments who will quickly ally themselves with Canada, a rising Superpower.

That is my vision, this would take years to accomplish mind you. Years to build up our Military alone to a proper level. The Americans have much to gain as well so they'd be quiet and would silence our critics.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Jack Weber

[bush_cheney2004]

....That is my vision, this would take years to accomplish mind you. Years to build up our Military alone to a proper level. The Americans have much to gain as well so they'd be quiet and would silence our critics.

No...the Americans would promptly remind you of who is the Big Dog on this block. See "Monroe Doctrine".

[Smallc]

How is the U.S. system "profoundly broken", beyond the things i mentioned? How is Canada's system much better?

IMO the Canadian system is profoundly broken, and nearly impossible to fix without bringing about even more problems.

Our system seems to breed better management. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Westminster democracy. It has worked for hundreds of years and it will continue to do so for hundreds of years, whether it has a monarch or a president at its head. The US system is good, but I certainly wouldn't say that it is superior. Some would argue that, but I certainly wouldn't. The US system has the positive of checks and balances...but it has the problem of deadlock and very slow progress. There are pros and cons in each case....but a congressional system is really no better than a parliamentary system, and vice versa.

[eyeball]

In some cases, it's easier to deal with an owner than a bunch of disparate groups - especially if they're not governable.

In any case, it's always harder to stab competitors in the back when they're sitting across the table from you. It's far easier to lobby some distant authority privately, read secretly, and get them to stab your competitors in the back for you.

Most governments would rather sit down with a bunch of millionaires and privatized owners and exploit the natural divisions that exist amongst everyone else. This lends itself well to concluding that people are ungovernable and that only distant authorities can be trusted to adequately or appropriately control everything.

In the case of the open oceans or atmosphere the disparate groups you mention are national governments, which when left to their own devices really are as ungovernable a bunch as we'll ever see. I don't think governments however are analogous to herders or fishers or what have you and I do think there may well be a technical component to fix what's wrong.

Hardin’s thesis works only where there is no ownership.

Hardin's tragedy is made real by the presence of unregulated and ungoverned authority, a government that is unaccountable and untransparent in other words.

Like I said, above all else I want a form of government that I can see through and into, from any and all angles. In this case a technical fix is what's called for in the form of inescapably rigorous institutions of accountability and transparency. I'm afraid I still don't see any other option than governing governments in a manner that would make Orwell himself blush.

Edited July 15, 2010 by eyeball

[ToadBrother]

How is the U.S. system "profoundly broken", beyond the things i mentioned? How is Canada's system much better?

IMO the Canadian system is profoundly broken, and nearly impossible to fix without bringing about even more problems.

I don't like having an unelected monarchy as our head of state, but turning Canada into a republic would have repercussions and cause possible deadlock between the PM and an elected president if they are from different parties. Our PM has way too much power for a large variety of reasons, ie: tight control over his party MP's & lawmaking ability since PM is a member of the legislature, PM appoints all federal judges, PM appoints all senators etc. Responsible gov't is nice, but that paired with having the PM as a member of the legislature means power and independence is taken away from individual MP's and turning them into trained clapping seals. I much prefer the separation of powers of the US. Our Senate is also virtually useless, and reforming it is a monumental task which would likely cause more problems that it solved.

It's actually amazing our system has works as well as it has given its flaws.

The PM has a wide amount of power because he, by and large, has a monopoly on access to Executive powers. None of the republican types I've talked to seem to inclined to go to a presidential or semi-presidential system, so we would likely get a weak presidency like Germany, Ireland or India, where the President, just like our Queen, acts in almost all situations solely on the advice of the PM and Government. In other words, we would have a nearly identical system, from a functional perspective. That's generally why I'm against ending the Monarchy in Canada, I see no purpose to doing so if the more general framework of the Westminster System is left in place.

If we do want to talk about a more check-and-balance style system like the United States, I'm all ears. I would certainly support a move in that direction, but I doubt it would happen. Canadian Federalism is frozen by its competing interests and large-scale changes simply are not in the cards. That's why I think we'll have the Monarchy for some time to come, because even changing that would explode in constitutional war. I can well imagine, say, Alberta and Ontario lining up against it, and my reading of the amending formulas suggests that to alter the position of the Crown in Canada would require all the provinces to agree to the changes.

[ToadBrother]

ATM I think that a very strong nationalist right wing government would serve us best at this most dangerous time. Something like Franco's Spain but just not as severe. The traitors to Canada need to be arrested immediately and tried for treason. The pandering to the special interests is to stop and police given expanded powers to weed out the traitors from the nationalists. Build prison camps for the traitors until they are put on trial where if found guilty will be executed or imprisoned depending on the severity of the treason.

This must be one of your jokes. You should know that it in such states the loudest allies are the first to go. Look what happened to Ernst Rohm.

[Jack Weber]

This must be one of your jokes. You should know that it in such states the loudest allies are the first to go. Look what happened to Ernst Rohm.

Look what Franco did the The Falange after they had outlived thier collective usefulness to him...

I wonder what Fascist leader Mr. Falange will use as the object of his political desires once he realizes this?

[Remiel]

No...the Americans would promptly remind you of who is the Big Dog on this block. See "Monroe Doctrine".

Mr. " Canada " " vision " and the Monroe Doctrine should both be shoved where the Sun does not shine on them.

[bush_cheney2004]

Mr. " Canada " " vision " and the Monroe Doctrine should both be shoved where the Sun does not shine on them.

They were....you can find them in your Monarchy's bum.

[ToadBrother]

They were....you can find them in your Monarchy's bum.

The proof is in the pudding. I don't live in the United States. The War of 1812 was fought to a stalemate, the US has largely ground its once lofty reputation in Latin America into the ground, the Doctrine is essentially dead. The Chinese seem to be doing a lot better in South America these days. Maybe we can call it the Deng Xiaoping Doctrine.

[bush_cheney2004]

The proof is in the pudding. I don't live in the United States. The War of 1812 was fought to a stalemate, the US has largely ground its once lofty reputation in Latin America into the ground, the Doctrine is essentially dead. The Chinese seem to be doing a lot better in South America these days. Maybe we can call it the Deng Xiaoping Doctrine.

You can call it whatever you please....President Monroe had no idea that his proclamation would have such a long run and impact on the western hemisphere. These are the Americas..the beginning of the end for the Empire(s) with no setting sun.

As for reputation, forgiveness is easier to get than permission. America can leave "lofty" to the Canadian pretenders.