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Guest American Woman

I read that when it came out. Excellent Op-Ed. An d no one can accuse me of being anti-Muslim by referring to it; the writer is Muslim.

It is excellent. He really hits on some relevant points, which is why, I'm sure, no one has been able to address one thing he's said. What he said regarding what's wrong with Islam in other countries really hit home, because it does make no sense that Imam Rauf is over there, ignoring what's wrong with Islam in the Middle East, while promoting American acceptance. Deal with what's wrong over there, and there's likely to be a lot more acceptance here.

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I don't know. You tell me. Why are you weasels too frightened to admit that you support and root for al-Qaeda? What's the big deal?

Figure that out, and I think you'll figure out the other. ;)

Great point. Their circular arguments have once again come full circle. Apparently they're back to the "you blame all Muslims" meme once again. You've got to start to wonder how their education failed them so brutally during their days back in school. :blink:

However, I guess it's been a few pages, so it was probably time for somebody of their ilk to regurgitate that claim again. :rolleyes:

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I don't know. You tell me. Why are you weasels too frightened to admit that you support and root for al-Qaeda? What's the big deal?

Figure that out, and I think you'll figure out the other. ;)

Why do people ignore the fact that the CIA helped the Muhajideen to fight off the soviets, which evolved into Al-Queda?

Edited by GostHacked
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Why do people ignore the fact that the CIA helped the Muhajideen to fight off the soviets

Nobody's ignoring that. It was the right thing to do against evil Soviet aggression.

which evolved into Al-Queda?

The mujahideen/holy warriors didn't evolve into Al-Qaeda because the CIA helped them. They evolved into Al Qaeda over Islamic fundamentalist ideology.

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Guest American Woman

Why do people ignore the fact that the CIA helped the Muhajideen to fight off the soviets, which evolved into Al-Queda?

Who's ignoring it? You think that gives them credibility?

Edited by American Woman
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I don't know. You tell me. Why are you weasels too frightened to admit that you support and root for al-Qaeda? What's the big deal?

Figure that out, and I think you'll figure out the other. ;)

The difference here is that we don't believe that support for peaceful muslims and Al-Qaeda are two seperate things.

The fact that you're against it for god knows what reason, the last one being I believe that it's a victory monument to the people who did 9/11, speaks to the very opposite. Not even close. Try again, though! I had quite the laugh. :)

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The difference here is that we don't believe that support for peaceful muslims and Al-Qaeda are two seperate things.

The fact that you're against it for god knows what reason, the last one being I believe that it's a victory monument to the people who did 9/11, speaks to the very opposite. Not even close. Try again, though! I had quite the laugh. :)

:D

Edited by DogOnPorch
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It is excellent. He really hits on some relevant points, which is why, I'm sure, no one has been able to address one thing he's said. What he said regarding what's wrong with Islam in other countries really hit home, because it does make no sense that Imam Rauf is over there, ignoring what's wrong with Islam in the Middle East, while promoting American acceptance. Deal with what's wrong over there, and there's likely to be a lot more acceptance here.

Deal with what's wrong over there, and there's likely to be a lot more acceptance here.

Actually they HAVE been dealing with whats wrong over there. In the last few years there has been a wide spread rejection of Islamic Jihadism, and a sea change in the attitude of muslims. But anti muslim sentiment in the US has INCREASED not decreased.

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I don't know. You tell me. Why are you weasels too frightened to admit that you support and root for al-Qaeda? What's the big deal?

Figure that out, and I think you'll figure out the other. ;)

Why are you too frightened to explain why a developer's landlord/tenant relations are of interest to you in this instance and not in other instances like, say, at the Freedom Tower?

Figure that out, and I think you'll figure out the other. ;)

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Great point. Their circular arguments have once again come full circle. Apparently they're back to the "you blame all Muslims" meme once again. You've got to start to wonder how their education failed them so brutally during their days back in school. :blink:

However, I guess it's been a few pages, so it was probably time for somebody of their ilk to regurgitate that claim again. :rolleyes:

My apologies. I thought you were being honest about how you see 9/11 as being derived from the culture of Islam as a whole. It's funny how you're otherwise open about being anti-muslim (which is fine---I am too), but your talking points instruct you to deny it.

Life must be very confusing for you.

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Oh really?

Yeah I find that an unlikely story as well. Islamism has been gaining greater influence all throughout the middle-east, whether with the recent developments in Turkey, or the rise of Hamas (which is more Islamist than its rival Fatah), or the coming to power of Ahmadinejad, who is much more deeply Islamist than his predecessors (though of course the supreme leader is a theocrat in any case), or the rising influence of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and even looking at the types of political parties now being successful in Iraq.

Edited by Bonam
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Why are you too frightened to explain why a developer's landlord/tenant relations are of interest to you in this instance and not in other instances like, say, at the Freedom Tower?

Figure that out, and I think you'll figure out the other. ;)

I addressed this earlier, and I didn't see a response:

Are we no longer proclaiming Imam Rauf to be the champion of peace? Is he now just another real-estate developer? Is Park 51 now just another real-estate development? We're lowering the bar on that one, are we?

I'm not aware of other real-estate developers being hailed as champions of unity, builders of bridges between communities, healers of the nation, and so forth. The sterling character of Imam Rauf has in fact been made a focal point of this discussion. His supporters claim it's unthinkable to question his motives in light of all his wonderful intentions and good works. If that's going to be the argument, then his works are entirely open for discussion, Bubber.

Iman Rauf's call for unity between Jews, Christians, and Muslims (but not atheists) is based on what he calls "the two greatest commandments", shared by all 3 Abrahamic religions: (1) to love god, and (2) to love all our fellow human beings as we love ourselves.

Now, I don't presume to know what sort of home he provides for Daisy. But I have a hunch that he would not house her in a tenement that's been flagged for safety violations. If he's letting people live in buildings that are being sued for building code violations, is he really "loving his neighbors"?

Any response?

-k

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Yeah I find that an unlikely story as well. Islamism has been gaining greater influence all throughout the middle-east, whether with the recent developments in Turkey, or the rise of Hamas (which is more Islamist than its rival Fatah), or the coming to power of Ahmadinejad, who is much more deeply Islamist than his predecessors (though of course the supreme leader is a theocrat in any case), or the rising influence of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and even looking at the types of political parties now being successful in Iraq.

I have a sneaking suspicion that things will get MUCH worse before they get what we might call...better. One more good terrorist strike against a major target will produce rather unpredictable responses across the board. People joked about

after 9-11...my hunch is that there will be not a lot of joking around if there's another similar event. Edited by DogOnPorch
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Its commonly referred to as the "everything but the kitchen sink" strategy. People who dont want this project are scouring post-hoc for to justify their initial positions. If this guy so much as stole a candy bar when he was a kid, yer gonna hear about it by the time we hit page 500.

Its been really neat actually.... watching the argument evolve.

First we had...

The Muslims should have empathy!

Then it was like "Its too big!".

Then "too close"... not enough blocks away!

Then it was because Muslims are mean to women.

Then it was the name of the project.

Then it was the source of funding for the project.

Then it was the sincerity of this guy.

Hes not serious about building bridges.

He wasnt anti Hammas enough.

Now its his credentials as a residential landlord.

And these people are just getting started!!! Pretty soon theyll trot out chix he diddled when he was a teenager. You say "what the hell does that have to do with it?" and theyll be all like "Those are facts man!".

I just had to preserve this :lol: . Awesome post dre.

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Funny you're asking for responses considering you never answered mine about providing book passages that define the Imam as anything but a Liberal.

I think it's funny that you keep capitalizing liberal, nicky.

It's a lot of work, since the book isn't provided in a format that can be cut-and-pasted and has to be transcribed by hand. Nonetheless, since you ask so politely...

"Islamic history offers models of pluralism that could be quite instructive for modern American society, such as a court system that decided cases according to different religions' laws. Throughout most of Islamic history, laws differed not only from region to region but also within a given region. Laws were applied based on the litigants' beliefs, especially in matters of marriage and divorce, custody, and inheritance." (page 2)

(if that sounds familiar, it's because he said something similar in his Huffington Post piece about Sharia:

"At the core of Shariah law are God's commandments, revealed in the Old Testament and revised in the New Testament and the Quran. The principles behind American secular law are similar to Shariah law - that we protect life, liberty and property, that we provide for the common welfare, that we maintain a certain amount of modesty. What Muslims want is to ensure that their secular laws are not in conflict with the Quran or the Hadith, the sayings of Muhammad.

(...)

"In America, we have a Constitution that created a three-branch form of government - legislative, executive and judiciary. The role of the judiciary is to ensure that the other two branches comply with the Constitution. What Muslims want is a judiciary that ensures that the laws are not in conflict with the Quran and the Hadith. Just as the Constitution has gone through interpretations, so does Shariah law.")

And Media Matters quotes pages 86-87 of "What's Right With Islam":

"For America to score even higher on the "Islamic" or "Shariah Compliance" scale, America would need to do two things: invite the voices of all religions to join the dialogue in shaping the nation's practical life, and allow religious communities more leeway to judge among themselves according to their own laws."

To make explicit what he's talking about, one of the widely circulated quotes available from the book:

"(it) also would not be a violation of church-state separation to have a

subsidiary entity within judiciary that employs religious jurists from diverse religious

backgrounds to comment on the compliance of certain decisions with their religious laws and to

provide guidance to their religious communities on how kosher or Shariah compliant these

decisions are." (p111, quoted here among others)

I dispute the premise that there's anything "liberal" about wanting courts to be overseen by clerics, priests, rabbis, houngans, sorcerors, witch-doctors, shamans, or fortune-tellers.

Past my bedtime; will do more tomorrow or Saturday.

-k

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Oh really?

Yeah really. Support for violent jihad is down substancially in almost every muslim country, the percentage of muslims and the idea of radical islam as this major global movement that was talked about after 911 has completely fizzled.

I know thats not the narrative you want to hear but its true.

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Yeah really. Support for violent jihad is down substancially in almost every muslim country, the percentage of muslims and the idea of radical islam as this major global movement that was talked about after 911 has completely fizzled.

I know thats not the narrative you want to hear but its true.

source

Why is it every liberal i speak to says everything the west is doing is causing more radicalization of muslims ?

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I addressed this earlier, and I didn't see a response:

Any response?

-k

I didn't respond because your post is beside the point I didn't proclaim anyone to be a champion of peace. I have no idea what his character is like, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's a total goof. I also wouldn't care, because I don't spend a lot of time worrying about how nice a person a real estate developer is.

But if some people said he's a nice guy, that makes it open season to dig up anything negative you can find? Great argument.

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I didn't respond because your post is beside the point I didn't proclaim anyone to be a champion of peace. I have no idea what his character is like, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's a total goof. I also wouldn't care, because I don't spend a lot of time worrying about how nice a person a real estate developer is.

Whether you personally think he's a champion of peace or just another real estate developer isn't the point. Some on Team Supermosque clearly want to portray him as some kind of hero.

But if some people said he's a nice guy, that makes it open season to dig up anything negative you can find? Great argument.

Yes, Bubber, that's how it works. If his supporters are going to keep referring to his sterling character to deflect questions, then it's entirely reasonable to discuss how sterling his character really is.

-k

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Holy shit.... :blink:

Yah somethings are holy and somethings are not. This is a battle about common individual freedom and the abiltiy to create wonderful things through a thing called personal talent and skill...VS. The so-called common good and insect like mob rule in the name of God that they insult by assisting as if the master of the universe is not omni-powerful.

Put is simple terms - Islam VS. freedom...once they are entrenched and powerful in western society then we will all be prostrate with our foreheads to the ground...and who ever looks up or has a good idea - will have his head figuratively chopped off...do we want the right to rise to the highest point of human potential or do we want to be part of the insect hive?

The choice is yours! Being politically correct - tolerant and kind might just be the greatest weakness the western spawns of Christian doctrine have....

Time to stand up and say - this is my house - this is my family - every man is king - every woman queen and every child is royal and of great value - I repeat and this is the difference between Islam and us.....quote "I have not come to save the whole flock but to save the one sheep that has fallen into the pit" - in other words...the INDIVIDUAL is as valuable as a million human beings - IF the rights of ONE individual are trodded on then the rights of the mass fall into rapid decay...

FREEDOM...OR Facism under the guise of god....Your choice. BUT we are running out of time and we are so weak that no one is standing their ground protecting their homes from invaders. Not saying we must wage a war - just saying - STAND UP FOR YOUR HARD EARNED HUMAN RIGHTS...do not give into some Mullah - or Saudi prince that wants to make a hobby of over throwing our empire.

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Its been really neat actually.... watching the argument evolve.

The Muslims should have empathy!

They should.

Then "too close"... not enough blocks away!

That goes with the empathy statement.

Then it was the source of funding for the project.

The funding source is a legitimate issue. And still is, until they clear it up. Why haven't they?

Then it was the sincerity of this guy.

Yes, his actions seem to be contrary to his words.

He wasnt anti Hammas enough.

If one can't recognize Hamas as a terrorist organization, how so-called moderate can one be?

Anyways, what's worse is the evolving arguments of why the mega-mosque should be there.

First it had to be there because all Muslims aren't responsible for 9/11.

Then it had to be there because some of the victims of 9/11 were Muslims.

Then it had to be there because the Imam is a moderate.

Then it had to be there because it would show the world how tolerant America is.

Then it had to be there because strip clubs and other churches are around the same area.

Then it had to be there because if it doesn't get built, the terrorists win. (Yes, sadly somebody played the "if you don't do it, the terrorists win" card.

Edited by Shady
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