Moscow Metro Bombed

[M.Dancer]

Are you 12? This, "I know you are but what am I?" crap belongs on the playground.

Sorry, I don't play tr00ther games...ask Michael Hardner...he willing suffers them..

[nicky10013]

Sorry, I don't play tr00ther games...ask Michael Hardner...he willing suffers them..

Something tells me you're going to be a winner of a darwin awards prize one day.

[Michael Hardner]

Sorry, I don't play tr00ther games...ask Michael Hardner...he willing suffers them..

And yet my contribution to this thread is as court jester only. Maybe I'm finally learning.

[ToadBrother]

Just as I suspected. No argument to counter, resort to childish tactics. Fitting.

You yourself seem unwilling to overly commit yourself, so why would you be so hot under the collar about someone who views it only slightly more critically than you do?

Edited March 29, 2010 by ToadBrother

[nicky10013]

You yourself seem unwilling to overly commit yourself, so why would you be so hot under the collar about someone who views it only slightly more critically than you do?

The Apartment Building Bombings from 99? I think that without a doubt they did it. However, despite how solid the evidence is (and it is pretty solid) this will never be tried in any court; the truth will never officially come out. The government arrested anyone who either investigated or stumbled upon evidence that the FSB may indeed have been involved. Indeed, even if it was allowed to go to court, there is no independent judiciary in Russia. The best anyone can do is line up the evidence and say this is what happened, this is what we know happened behind the scences, make the decision for yourself. That's the academically honest way to go about it.

As for this morning's bombing, I have no idea whether the government was involved or not. I can merely state that I follow Russia quite closely and know that due to the horrible losses the Russian economy has sustained, the popularity of the government has taken a hit. I also know that the Chechen situation has really cooled off. Though it could easily be Chechen terrorists, I merely pointed out that this could easily be the work of the FSB as a way to remind Russia "why you need the government." It's happened before, and considering the criminality of the current government, it can certainly happen again.

The reason why I get upset is that he challenges the evidence I provide, which is understandable, but then resorts to inane ramblings rather than admitting "hey, that actually may make sense." A real discussion doesn't involve disagreeing for the sake of disagreement and I find it incredibly frustrating.

Edited March 29, 2010 by nicky10013

[M.Dancer]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/twin-blasts-rock-moscow-subway-brat-rush-hour-dozens-killed/article1515378/

It's fairly certain that they were behind the string of apartment block bombings that led to the second Chechen War.

I'm not saying it's not circumstantial...

The Apartment Building Bombings from 99? I think that without a doubt they did it.

*Snortle*

Analysts

Andrey Soldatov is skeptical about Mikhail Trepashkin's awareness of the details of the Russian apartment bombings. According to Soldatov, the Russian government's suppression of the discussion of the FSB involvement theory reflects paranoia rather than guilt on its part. He points out that, ironically, the paranoia produced the conspiracy theories that the government was keen to stamp out.[156]

In 2009, Russian journalist and radio host Yulia Latynina, commenting on Scott Anderson's article "Vladimir Putin's Dark Rise to Power" noted that deaths of Sergey Yushenkov and Yury Schekochihin "in any case, had no relation to bombings in Moscow". Latynina opined, that the version that FSB did the bombings was not only absurd, but purposefully invented by Berezovsky after he was deprived of the power. Her major argument was, that since Berezovsky was one of the key figures to push Putin into the power, he knew for certain the theory was wrong. If Berezovsky felt that "there are some people else beyond Putin, some fearsome siloviks who can explode houses, they [the Family] would throw Putin away, as a hot potato".[157]

Theory of Ibn Al Khattab's Involvement

Paul J. Murphy, a former US counterterrorism expert stated that "the evidence that Al-Khattab was responsible for the apartment building bombings in Moscow is clear".[15] Murphy also states "the findings by the Russian government prove that the Liberation Army of Dagestan, which claimed responsibility for the attacks, is the same as Al-Khattab's Islamic Army of Dagestan, which launched the invasion of Dagestan from Chechnya in August, 1999".[15]

Professor Peter Reddaway and researcher Dmitri Glinski described the involvement of the Liberation Army of Dagestan as the best explanation for the bombings.[153]

According to Dr. Robert Bruce Ware, an associate professor of Southern Illinois University, the best explanation for the apartment block blasts is that they were perpetrated by Wahhabis under the leadership of Khattab, as retribution for the federal attacks on Karamachi, Chabanmakhi, and Kadar. "If the blasts were organized by Khattab and other Wahhabis as retribution for the federal attacks on Dagestan's Islamic Djamaat, then this would explain the timing of the attacks, and why there were no attacks after the date on which fighting in Dagestan was concluded. It would explain why no Chechen claimed responsibility. It would account for Basayev's reference to Dagestani responsibility, and it would be consistent with Khattab's vow to set off bombs everywhere... blasting through [Russian] cities."[12]

Tr00thers....In denial of everything obvious.

[nicky10013]

*Snortle*

Tr00thers....In denial of everything obvious.

Dancer, in regards to Berezovsky, I'd do a little research on him if I were you. Firstly, pretty much all reporters in Russia are under the heel of the state. That a reporter would call out Berezovsky isn't surprising. Why? Because Berezovsky is a media billionaire. The Russian Government arrested him on corruptions charges which are probably not that far off base, however, everyone in Russia is corrupt. Why he really ended up in prison is because he wasn't saying very nice things about Mr. Putin. The Russian government tried and convicted him in absentia. They've tried to assassinate him.

See, as an example Toad, we're quoting from the same article but he's completely ignoring this:

The type of explosives controversy

It was initially reported by the FSB that the explosives used by the terrorists was RDX (or "hexogen"). However, it was officially declared later that the explosive was not RDX, but a mixture of aluminum powder, niter (saltpeter), sugar, and TNT prepared by the perpetrators in a concrete mixer at a fertilizer factory in Urus-Martan, Chechnya.[55][56] RDX is produced in only one factory in Russia, in the city of Perm,[9]. According to the book by Satter, the FSB changed the story about the type of explosive, since it was difficult to explain how huge amounts of RDX disappeared from the closely guarded Perm facility.

A military storage with RDX disguised as "sugar"

In March 2000, Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta reported about a Private Alexei Pinyaev of the 137th Regiment who guarded a military facility near the city of Ryazan. He was surprised to see that "a storehouse with weapons and ammunition" contained sacks with the word "sugar" on them. The two paratroopers cut a hole in one of the bags and made tea with the sugar taken from the bag. But the taste of the tea was terrible. They became suspicious since people were talking about the explosions. The substance turned out to be hexogen. After the newspaper report, FSB officers "descended on Pinyaev's unit", accused them of "divulging a state secret", and told them "You guys can't even imagine what serious business you've got yourselves tangled up in." The regiment later sued Novaya Gazeta for insulting the honor of the Russian Army, since there was no Private Alexei Pinyaev in the regiment, according to their statement.[57] At an FSB press conference Private Pinyayev stated that there was not any hexogen in the 137th sky troops Regiment and that he was hospitalized in December 1999 and no longer visited the range.[54]

Incident in Russian Parliament

On 13 September, just hours after the second explosion in Moscow, Russian Duma speaker Gennadiy Seleznyov of the Communist Party made an announcement: "I have just received a report. According to information from Rostov-on-Don, an apartment building in the city of Volgodonsk was blown up last night".[58][59][60][61] However, the bombing in Volgodonsk took place three days later, on 16 September. When the Volgodonsk bombing happened, Vladimir Zhirinovsky demanded an explanation in the Duma, but Seleznev turned his microphone off.[58][62]

Two years later, in March 2002, Seleznyov claimed in an interview that he had been referring to an unrelated hand grenade-based explosion, which did not kill anyone and did not destroy any buildings, and which indeed happened in Volgodonsk.[63][64] It remains unclear why Seleznyov reported such an insignificant incident to the Russian Parliament and why he did not explain the misunderstanding to Zhirinovsky and other Duma members.[63]

FSB defector Alexander Litvinenko described this as "the usual Kontora mess up": "Moscow-2 was on the 13th and Volgodonsk on 16th, but they got it to the speaker the other way around," he said. Investigator Mikhail Trepashkin confirmed that the man who gave Seleznev the note was indeed an FSB officer.[65]

Sealing of all materials by Russian Duma

The Russian Duma rejected two motions for parliamentary investigation of the Ryazan incident.[66][67] The Duma, on a pro-Kremlin party-line vote, voted to seal all materials related to the Ryazan incident for the next 75 years and forbade an investigation into what happened.[citation needed]

Arrest of independent investigator Trepashkin

The commission of Sergei Kovalev asked lawyer Mikhail Trepashkin to investigate the case. Trepashkin found that the basement of one of the bombed buildings was rented by FSB officer Vladimir Romanovich and that the latter was witnessed by several people. However, Trepashkin was unable to bring the evidence to court, because he was arrested by FSB in October 2003 (imprisoned in Nizhny Tagil), allegedly for "disclosing state secrets", just a few days before he was to make his findings public.[68] He was sentenced by a military closed court to four years imprisonment.[69] Amnesty International issued a statement that "there are serious grounds to believe that Mikhail Trepashkin was arrested and convicted under falsified criminal charges which may be politically motivated, in order to prevent him continuing his investigative and legal work related to the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and other cities".[70]

Edited March 29, 2010 by nicky10013

[GostHacked]

Correct. You have no argument to counter. Tr00thers never do. No answer will ever satistfy a tr00ther so I don't bother.

I simply enable them to look stupid.

ON the same token we have those who believe everything the government says. Just sayin.

[eyeball]

ON the same token we have those who believe everything the government says. Just sayin.

...like children who gaze up at their father...

[Mr.Canada]

How long will this go one before we learn and take action. We need to dump all of this political correctness crap and do the what needs to be done. How long must we bury our children? How many of our citizens must die before something is done?

Makes me sick to my stomach that people would rather bury their cowardly heads in the sand before tackling this problem head on. They'd rather watch their own people die before dealing with it. Hopefully Russia will show us the way before it's too late.

Russia was a fairly racist place before this happened with non whites being attacked in public daily, this will not only continue but grow more widespread. There are a lot of white nationalist para military groups in Russia who have kidnapped and beheaded Muslims, they aren't the wimps like we have in North America. If Putin doesn't get a handle on these terrorists resentment will grow and violence will continue to worsen along with public support for extremist groups.

How long before the subway in Toronto is bombed? Is anything being done to protect Canadian citizens?

Edited March 30, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[eyeball]

Makes me sick to my stomach that people would rather bury their cowardly heads in the sand before tackling this problem head on. They'd rather watch their own people die before dealing with it. Hopefully Russia will show us the way before it's too late.

According to reports Putin has led Russians to believe their government has had terrorism under control - they've told their people to be happy and to not worry.

Sort of like telling them 'Mission Accomplished' I guess.

[Moonlight Graham]

I blame Muslims!

[Mr.Canada]

According to reports Putin has led Russians to believe their government has had terrorism under control - they've told their people to be happy and to not worry.

Sort of like telling them 'Mission Accomplished' I guess.

Putin said that he "dragged out from the bottom of the sewers and into the Light of God". That's a direct quote. He also said he will "destroy" the people responsible. I want a leader like this is Canada. One with the guts to do what is necessary to protect its citizens.

I blame Muslims!

Yes, they were Muslims. No big surprise there.

"We know that they are lying low. But it is a matter of honor for the security services to drag them out from the bottom of the sewers into the light of God" Putin said. "I am convinced that this will happen."Source

Edited March 30, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[bush_cheney2004]

...Sort of like telling them 'Mission Accomplished' I guess.

...but nothing like telling them "Mission Not Accomplished...but we're still leaving by 2011".

[Oleg Bach]

The Russians are a tough lot. There are pictures of some of the wounded- real pissed of stoic types- with blackened faces pock marked by bits of cheese ball finishing nails. The victims do not run about screaming "I am terrified of the terrorists' - They have this wtf look of insult and personal inner strength..unlike the AMERICANS...who tremble in fear..striking terror into the hearts of the old Slaves is a hard nut to crack...Found out that my grandfather was an "exile of Chechnya....all I can say to the black widows is that JESUS believers that are old school eastern rights are tougher than western infidels who need porno to get off.

[Mr.Canada]

I agree Oleg, the Russians will show us the way. They will teach us how. Putin is the Russian Bear and he will wrestle these evil people and drag them into Gods Light.

[Oleg Bach]

I agree Oleg, the Russians will show us the way. They will teach us how. Putin is the Russian Bear and he will wrestle these evil people and drag them into Gods Light.

AT least the Russian mob is up front about being hoods-- where as the AMERICANS..merchant aristocrats like to show the world that they are respectable-...well that worked for a while until the water boarding barbarism came to light...The bombers are not evil- just mislead and have cut throat opportunists as leaders..it's simple gang warfare and these bombers want their turf back. Putin is a product of atheism and is also the genetic product of vile and violent peasants--- seeing the Soviets destroyed the good gene pool--I believe that they deserve each other,,, have you seen the Chechan leader...real vile and violent goof..Putin the kick boxing hooligan and him are a match made in heaven..or maybe hell..good luck to both sides.

[blueblood]

Putin said that he "dragged out from the bottom of the sewers and into the Light of God". That's a direct quote. He also said he will "destroy" the people responsible. I want a leader like this is Canada. One with the guts to do what is necessary to protect its citizens.

Holy crap you are bat s*** crazy.

This is why people shy away from the tories, it's moonbats like you who want us all to live under martial law and state control like 1984 that ruin it for the rest of us.

Were you happy Trudeau had the military parading around the streets and invoked the war measures act?

If Russia is such a great country and Canada is turning into a "socialist quagmire" why don't you emigrate there and see for yourself how great it is.

You've lost so much credibility it's gone into integers.

[Oleg Bach]

Russia, the land of opportunity if you wear a scull and cross bones on your hat and you are missing an eye.

[eyeball]

Holy crap you are bat s*** crazy.

This is why people shy away from the tories, it's moonbats like you who want us all to live under martial law and state control like 1984 that ruin it for the rest of us.

Were you happy Trudeau had the military parading around the streets and invoked the war measures act?

If Russia is such a great country and Canada is turning into a "socialist quagmire" why don't you emigrate there and see for yourself how great it is.

You've lost so much credibility it's gone into integers.

He's not far off the truth though, Putin is swearing vengeance instead of justice and I suspect this sort of talk resonates nicely with the crack-down get-tough crowd Harper represents.

On other fronts in the War on Terror... like Ethiopia...we're supplying the military regime there with money and weapons while our Chinese allies are providing the same regime with electronic monitoring-and-control software, so it can block opposition electronic communications. Imagine that, we're in cahoots with commies to thwart democracy.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:http://www.ethiopianreview.com/content/11315

Talk about bat s*** crazy.

Edited March 31, 2010 by eyeball

[August1991]

The hard evidence is that it was RDX. They know the FSB planted it. Tying it to the Kremlin can be viewed as circumstantial, but lets be honest. We all know where the FSB gets its orders from.

Nicky, you are engaging in the Russian equivalent of the American Left. You are blaming "us".

In Russia, some people blame the State because they assume that it always lies. In the West, the Left blames the powerful.

As to Russia, there is no question about who organized the Nord-Ost Dubrovka theatre attack. The FSB did not. In the US, only leftist lunatics question why the World Trade Center buildings collapsed in September 2001.

----

My fear is that we in the West are about to face similar terrorist attacks as Israel in the 1980s and 1990s. Britain faced a minor version under the IRA.

In the late 1800s, the western world also faced a wave of terrorism. Two US presidents were assassinated then (Garfield and McKinley), Queen Victoria survived several assassination attempts and Alexander II was killed in 1881.

[Mr.Canada]

Holy crap you are bat s*** crazy.

This is why people shy away from the tories, it's moonbats like you who want us all to live under martial law and state control like 1984 that ruin it for the rest of us.

Were you happy Trudeau had the military parading around the streets and invoked the war measures act?

If Russia is such a great country and Canada is turning into a "socialist quagmire" why don't you emigrate there and see for yourself how great it is.

You've lost so much credibility it's gone into integers.

Wanting terrorists to be caught and brought to justice isn't condoning martial law. If you're making that leap maybe you're the one whos crazy.

I was born in '75 so I don't remember when he did it but I seen it on TV. I hated almost everything about PET.

Don't worry I will be leaving Canada at some point but not yet. One of two conditions need to be met first.

1. We have enough money to leave comfortably.

2. The financial system crashes and currency becomes worthless.

This is why so many are buying precious metals and stones. Also the reason so many jewlers on TV are wanting to buy your gold. A financial crisis is expected and precious metals and stones are easily transportable and hold their value. I'm investing in these things and if you're smart you will too. It will be easier to start over someplace else with this universal currency.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[eyeball]

In Russia, some people blame the State because they assume that it always lies. In the West, the Left blames the powerful.

Spoken just like the child who's forever gazing up at...whoever's in charge.

My fear is that we in the West are about to face similar terrorist attacks as Israel in the 1980s and 1990s. Britain faced a minor version under the IRA.

Don't worry I'm sure whoever's in charge will do what's needed to make things safe.

If right-wingers think we have a Nanny state now...just wait till Daddy get's up.

[nicky10013]

He's not far off the truth though, Putin is swearing vengeance instead of justice and I suspect this sort of talk resonates nicely with the crack-down get-tough crowd Harper represents.

On other fronts in the War on Terror... like Ethiopia...we're supplying the military regime there with money and weapons while our Chinese allies are providing the same regime with electronic monitoring-and-control software, so it can block opposition electronic communications. Imagine that, we're in cahoots with commies to thwart democracy.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:http://www.ethiopianreview.com/content/11315

Talk about bat s*** crazy.

He's not off base in quoting what Putin said. I think he's a little off base in terms of wanting a leader like Putin. I personally enjoy democracy, but that's just me.

Secondly, Ethiopia isn't a military regime. It's not democratic but it's not a Junta either. It's also a pretty important country within Africa. As bad as the government is acting domestically, Ethiopia has the continent's largest armed forces and they work with the US to keep the radicals inside Somalia in check. The reality of the fact is, sometimes, we have to work with authoritarian states to advance national interests. Furthermore, I don't see why that's necessarily a bad thing. I've recommended it many times before, and I'll do it again. Read the J-Curve by Ian Bremmer. The basic tennet is the further we isolate nations we don't like for being anti-democratic, the more authoritarian they become. North Korea is the perfect example. The more we engage, the more we trade, the more likely it is that a nation state will transition towards democracy.

[nicky10013]

Wanting terrorists to be caught and brought to justice isn't condoning martial law. If you're making that leap maybe you're the one whos crazy.

Well, claiming that you want a leader like Putin, you're essentially condoning the same thing. I recommend you read this. http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2009 Click on Russia and read the democratic audit. It's not pretty.

2. The financial system crashes and currency becomes worthless.

Call me skeptical but this isn't going to happen.

This is why so many are buying precious metals and stones. Also the reason so many jewlers on TV are wanting to buy your gold. A financial crisis is expected and precious metals and stones are easily transportable and hold their value. I'm investing in these things and if you're smart you will too. It will be easier to start over someplace else with this universal currency.

No, the financial crisis already happened. People are freaked out so these gold dealers are trying to prey on people's fear.