David Frum Blames Right-Wing Commentators for Heathcare Passing

[Michael Hardner]

David Frum echoes comments I have been making about the hog-callers on right-wing TV and Radio here.

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.

Wow. The right-wing hog-callers are rightly blamed by their own kind for acting in their own interests and wrecking any chance for victory. They're too influential and can't be controlled. Hell, Beck even goes as far as admits that he doesn't say what he means. Now, right-wing America, you don't have use for these guys any more I guess. How do you get rid of them ?

[punked]

What I really liked about Frum, is when he said it would be impossible to repel, and how Republicans shouldn't care if they win in November because they weren't playing the long game. Truly telling of how Republicans govern in comparison to Democrats.

[dizzy]

I think that they became giddy with their own rhetoric. Most of what I've heard on the matter of US politics over the past year has been informed by its media pundits and their absolute world views, not its politicians. The problem with media pundits (other than that they are media pundits) is that they don't have to live in the world of compromise in which most of us operate. So, to the limbaughs, the becks and their offshoots teabaggers I say, "you lose". And tonight, politicians worked for their keep and the ones who bought your way of thinking also lost.

Edited March 22, 2010 by dizzy

[bush_cheney2004]

What I really liked about Frum,...

What I really liked about Frum.....Axis of Evil!

[August1991]

Wow. The right-wing hog-callers are rightly blamed by their own kind for acting in their own interests and wrecking any chance for victory.

I think Frum is wrong and the commenters after his column are right: there was no compromise possible. Pelosi and Obama were looking for window-dressing. They were not looking for compromise. Obama is his mother's son.

----

Now then, is this legislation good? To be honest, I still don't understand it. The Dems claim that 32 million uninsured Americans will be covered but who will pay for this? And what of the undocumented people in America? The legislation apparently forces private insurers to accept people with pre-diagnosed conditions. (That works now but what about previously pre-diagnosed conditions?)

In short, I don't understand what the Senate passed, the House has voted and what Obama will sign. Apparently, there will be further legislation to clarify.

---

I favour State involvement in health care. Most of us fear the small chance of a catastrophic accident and health care; as parents, we all fear the small chance of a child born with extensive health care requirements. I remember thinking, when I first saw the movie Midnight Cowboy, that it was a good argument for State health care.

Nevertheless, I tend to agree with Steyn that Obama has put the US on a trend to failure and defeat. The US is about to go through the crazy learning experience and public debates of State health care. It sounds good on paper but it doesn't work in practice. In 50 years, America will know this.

----

When I worked abroad, I used to say to my American colleagues that we Canadians could afford our foolishness because of America. Well, we in the West are about to discover what happens when America embarks on foolishness.

Where will Danny Williams go when America's health system is like Canada's?

[Michael Hardner]

Auguste,

This post was primarily about Frum turning on the extreme commentators, but your comments are indeed valid. I don't think America is prone to the same mistakes in delivery of public services that Canada is, though.

[Smallc]

I don't think America is prone to the same mistakes in delivery of public services that Canada is, though.

Why is that?

[Sir Bandelot]

Show me a health care system that does work. It's not something you switch on, like a machine and just let it run. It requires constant effort and diligence to keep it working as well as possible, And ultimately, at the end of the day, someone must pay for it.

[eyeball]

Show me a health care system that does work. It's not something you switch on, like a machine and just let it run. It requires constant effort and diligence to keep it working as well as possible, And ultimately, at the end of the day, someone must pay for it.

I think you've given a better description for a society.

[Pliny]

I suspect David Frum is a true neo-con. He has his roots in lib-left ideology and has transferred them over to the right wing. I suppose I could learn more about him and confirm my suspicions but in my mind he doesn't seem relevant enough to peak my interest.

You know, I think the Republicans took the wrong tack ontheir arguments about the health care bill. Obama kept saying that the Republicans didn't want health care reform; he was right that they didn't want his health care reform but they did want reforms and I think they were good market reforms not government takeovers.

The approach, from my perspective, should have been to redefine America as not a nanny state of entitlements but a land where people worked together to help each other achieve their dreams through everyone giving their best and the elimination of oppression of any kind that stops people from contributing freely to society or prevents steals their returns being the only province of government.

I think the right-wing commentators should have told the people to listen to Obama and attempt to understand what he says. They would then have known he isn't saying anything substantial. He speaks in vagueness and generalities. Some people thought that America needed transforming both on the left and the right but what did Barack mean when he said, "Together we will transform America." Vague and non-specific but brought a standing ovation. There is no common understanding or vision in what he says but he implies, and I think it is his intention to imply, that his vision is your vision. It is only when you analyze what he says that you understand his vision isnot your vision, it is only his vision.

I believe that is a trait of the lib-left progressive movement. There is only a general idea of direction, a vision of a goal or an end, but there is no common understanding of how to get there, there is only the desire to be there, and I don't think any work involved in arriving or maintaining the vision is ever given any consideration - that is left up to someone else, but that someone else never appears to do the real leg work. And that end goal or ideal never involves a contribution of the masses - the government will somehow work it's magic and we will be in Utopia with all our entitlements.

Today is a sad day for the world.

[waldo]

David Frum echoes comments I have been making about the hog-callers on right-wing TV and Radio here.

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

Wow. The right-wing hog-callers are rightly blamed by their own kind for acting in their own interests and wrecking any chance for victory. They're too influential and can't be controlled. Hell, Beck even goes as far as admits that he doesn't say what he means. Now, right-wing America, you don't have use for these guys any more I guess. How do you get rid of them ?

I don't buy into Frum's premise that the so-called "Conservative media" held back... prevented... the GOP House & Senate from allowing real substantive Health care reform to be brought to Americans. The GOP House & Senate embraced the politics of Conservative media disinformation; they threw themselves behind the antics of the tea-baggers, behind the Becks/Limbaughs... rather than work cooperatively with Democrats. Lead or get out of the way!

GOP had a choice... just as citizens at large have a choice... rather than take the lazy way out, rather than embrace the politics of media disinformation, propaganda... rather than accept the media's own lazy dishonest brand of sullied "journalism", start to demand more - start to challenge the media to improve. The getting rid of them plays itself out - eventually. For example, it's been suggested that FOX is quite literally financing Beck's show, since the cavalcade of sponsors left Beck. Another case example is playing itself out within the British tabloids, particularly the Times newspaper where assorted embargoes have been placed upon the Times given the blog level scrutiny raised against it's most dishonest writer, one Jonathan Leake... you know... Shady's go-to tabloid source. Effectively newsdesks, news agencies, are refusing to send their syndicated stories directly to the Times given the newspapers outright printed distortions... it's a start to attempt to force a cleanup! There will always be those miscreants who favour disinformation and propaganda over the interests of public good - whether it plays itself out directly within mainstream politics or within climate science denial. Their time is coming due... they are being outed - they will not win.

[Michael Hardner]

Why is that?

Why do I think that or why is it a fact ?

I think that because Americans don't respond to social problems in the same general way as Canadians do. There is more monitoring of expenditures, and the pressure is greater to reduce costs. Why is it different there than here ? I would suspect that fact that the mercantile class had a larger role in the foundation of the country, versus royalists and loyalists in Canada.

None of this is bad or good either. It just is.

[Black Dog]

What gets me about all this (and I apologize if it's a bit of a digression), is how much of the wheeling and dealing around this bill was around abortion. It boggles my mind that this single issue seems to be the driving force in health care politics in the U.S. It's insane.

[bush_cheney2004]

What gets me about all this (and I apologize if it's a bit of a digression), is how much of the wheeling and dealing around this bill was around abortion. It boggles my mind that this single issue seems to be the driving force in health care politics in the U.S. It's insane.

Insane to you...pragmatic to get the bill's passage. Federal funding of abortions is a political no-no, and pro-life Democrats (i.e. Stupak Gang) needed a gentlemen's agreement that such provisions would be removed if the House accepted the Senate bill unchanged. Without the pro-life votes, the bill does not pass as is.

[Shady]

I'm still trying to figure out how right-wing commentators passed healthcare?

[Jack Weber]

I'm still trying to figure out how right-wing commentators passed healthcare?

Well...With their over the top,carnival barking antics I'm thinking it turned alot of folks who might be predisposed to side with Republicans.The right seems to own the discourse on talk radio in the states,and other than extreme right wing ideologues who buy this bombastic fear mongering game hook,line,and,sinker,it alienated alot of people.

Beyond that,it simply debases any intellectual discusion...

[Shady]

Well...With their over the top,carnival barking antics I'm thinking it turned alot of folks who might be predisposed to side with Republicans.

And so that forced Pelosi and Reid to write the healthcare bill, and it forced Democrats to vote for it? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Lets just pretend that none of the so-called "right-wing" commentators existed at all. Does that mean healthcare legislation written by Pelosi/Reid/Obama wouldn't have passed? Of course not. Frum's premise is ridiculously flawed. If anything, their reform would have passed sooner, and it would have been a lot farther to the left (ie public options, etc).

I'd like to live in the fantasy land David Frum lives in!

[Jack Weber]

And so that forced Pelosi and Reid to write the healthcare bill, and it forced Democrats to vote for it? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Lets just pretend that none of the so-called "right-wing" commentators existed at all. Does that mean healthcare legislation written by Pelosi/Reid/Obama wouldn't have passed? Of course not. Frum's premise is ridiculously flawed. If anything, their reform would have passed sooner, and it would have been a lot farther to the left (ie public options, etc).

I'd like to live in the fantasy land David Frum lives in!

I think you're,not shockingly,missing the point.The point is that the carnival barkers do nothing to further the Republican position.In fact,they are the rights own worst enemy.Rigid ideologues ,on either side,do absolutely nothing to find consensus.Perhaps it's a commentary on the intractable ideological differences in the U.S. at the moment.

I don't agree much with David Frum,however,Republicans would be wise to heed his warnings if they want electoral success in the future.Following the rigid hardline thought processes of the Tea Part crowd will simply marginalize them to most of the smaller,electorally less relevent rural states.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Michael Hardner]

I think you're,not shockingly,missing the point.The point is that the carnival barkers do nothing to further the Republican position.In fact,they are the rights own worst enemy.

Agreed. Their agenda is to complain endlessly, because continual strife brings them attention and success. It is their goal to get ratings, not to establish long-term policies that keep taxes low, etc.

[Smallc]

I think that because Americans don't respond to social problems in the same general way as Canadians do. There is more monitoring of expenditures, and the pressure is greater to reduce costs.

I'm not convinced about that. Every time the smallest thing goes wrong in Ottawa or a provincial government in terms of money, we hear about....and American's just don't seem to be good at controlling costs.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Smallc

[eyeball]

Their time is coming due... they are being outed - they will not win.

I think it may be too late myself. The best indicator of this is the fact that even Frum is now scared of the monster he's helped create.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm not convinced about that. Every time the smallest thing goes wrong in Ottawa or a provincial government in terms of money, we hear about....and American's just don't seem to be good at controlling costs.

Sure...those Americans blew a big wad on their Gun Registry...LOL!

[Smallc]

Well, your federal government seems to blow money on almost everything else...and there was heavy criticism for the cost of the registry. All the costs were accounted for, even if it was lied about before the program was started.

[scorpio]

Sure...those Americans blew a big wad on their Gun Registry...LOL!

At least our cops access it, so it was a useful expenditure.

In a Canada Firearms Centre (CAFC) survey, 92% of general duty police officers stated that they use the system. link

Edited March 23, 2010 by scorpio

[bush_cheney2004]

At least our cops access it, so it was a useful expenditure.

In a Canada Firearms Centre (CAFC) survey, 92% of general duty police officers stated that they use the system. link

It was and still is a project management fiasco....in the IT industry, we use the Canadian Gun Registry to teach project managers how effed up things can get.

(waldo bait...let's see if he bites!)

Edited March 23, 2010 by bush_cheney2004