Healthcare Reform, Town halls and mobs.

August 19, 2009

CRS report

A CRS report Comparing the US with Other OECD Countries

Average healthcare spending as a percent of GDP

Average 8.9%

Canada 9.9%

U.S. 15.3%

France 10.5%

bush_cheney2004 · August 19, 2009

CRS report
A CRS report Comparing the US with Other OECD Countries

Average healthcare spending as a percent of GDP

Average 8.9%

Canada 9.9%

U.S. 15.3%

France 10.5%

France is not single payer...it is public - private system, as are many others. For single payer systems, Canada is the most expensive.

punked · August 20, 2009

France is not single payer...it is public - private system, as are many others. For single payer systems, Canada is the most expensive.

You said Universal health care move the post why don't you. Taiwan is the only other single payer system and yes they spend less, so one might say Canada is the second lest expensive single payer system in the world. Thanks for showing your ignorance on Health Care BC but doing nothing isn't an option.

bush_cheney2004 · August 20, 2009

You said Universal health care move the post why don't you. Taiwan is the only other single payer system and yes they spend less, so one might say Canada is the second lest expensive single payer system in the world. Thanks for showing your ignorance on Health Care BC but doing nothing isn't an option.

Most expensive single payer system in the WORLD......and only ranked at the bottom.....just like the USA.

You better get moving....doing nothing isn't an option.....in Canada! :lol:

punked · August 20, 2009

Most expensive single payer system in the WORLD......and only ranked at the bottom.....just like the USA.
You better get moving....doing nothing isn't an option.....in Canada!

What are you talking about? I am going to defend my system to someone who thinks a system where 15000 people die every year is good, where having 45 million people are not covered by anything, where 1 million people were added to that list this year along, where 100,000 working families lose their coverage every month, a system that is the leading cause of bankruptcies and where 75% of the country wants something new. I do not need to defend my system which is has a higher life expectancy, a system with a lower infant mortality rate and which some 85-90% of people would never give up. The second least expensive single payer system in the world.

DOING NOTHING ISN'T AN OPTION.

bush_cheney2004 · August 20, 2009

What are you talking about? I am going to defend my system to someone who thinks a system where 15000 people die every year is good, where having 45 million people are not covered by anything, where 1 million people were added to that list this year along, where 100,000 working families lose their coverage every month, a system that is the leading cause of bankruptcies and where 75% of the country wants something new.

Nobody dies in Canada? Hey, that is good...must be all that dope. :rolleyes:

I do not need to defend my system which is has a higher life expectancy, a system with a lower infant mortality rate and which some 85-90% of people would never give up. The second least expensive single payer system in the world.
DOING NOTHING ISN'T AN OPTION.

Make up your mind...are you an American or not.....(I think not after that rant.) Don't worry, we will still let you send your citizens to the American system when yours can't handle it.

punked · August 20, 2009

Nobody dies in Canada? Hey, that is good...must be all that dope.

Nobody because they are scared to go the doctor like in America. Also people die at an older age on average, and less babies die.

Make up your mind...are you an American or not.....(I think not after that rant.) Don't worry, we will still let you send your citizens to the American system when yours can't handle it.

There is funny law that if you have grandparents who are American and you get your citizenship before you 18 you can have both Canadian American citizenships. Must eat you up inside that I get a vote.

I bet Canada will still let Americans get drugs from Canada why it is the best of both worlds. Although doing nothing on Health Care isn't an option.

August1991 · August 20, 2009

I am not lying I am telling it the way it is Canada's system is cheaper then a lot of systems and in Canada people aren't scared of their doctors office like the US where 15000 people die every year. I admit doing nothing has been THE OPTION for the Republicans for a long long time. I don't agree it is an option for the American people.

Canada's system is cheaper?

Only if you don't count the time spent waiting in ERs or hastling on the phone to find a GP. (About 25% of the people in Montreal don't have one.)

Also, where do you get this 15,000 number from? In the US, about 2 million people die every year. Are you saying that 15,000 die because they are afraid to go to a doctor? Was that the registered cause of death - "Death due to fear of doctor"?

I'm reminded of statistics showing that child mortality rates in Cuba are lower than in the US. (The CIA website I believe repeats this stat.) The problem is that US medical technology allows more live births that unfortunately end in death. In Cuba, the "infant mortality" would be recorded as a still birth, a statistical category above an abortion.

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This whole US medical debate leaves me cold. Most people don't understand health care or the economics of health care. I know that I don't. IME, these debates turn in to proxy discussions of phobias and existentialism. We know we're all going to die and we all fear a doctor telling us that we have terminal cancer. For most of us, a discussion of health care policy brings up these ideas and we viscerally hope that everyone, even the government, is on our side.

Unfortunately, in the case of the US, this debate has also become a litmus test of Obama's hardcore support.

punked · August 20, 2009

Canada's system is cheaper?
Only if you don't count the time spent waiting in ERs or hastling on the phone to find a GP. (About 25% of the people in Montreal don't have one.)

Also, where do you get this 15,000 number from? In the US, about 2 million people die every year. Are you saying that 15,000 die because they are afraid to go to a doctor? Was that the registered cause of death - "Death due to fear of doctor"?

I'm reminded of statistics showing that child mortality rates in Cuba are lower than in the US. (The CIA website I believe repeats this stat.) The problem is that US medical technology allows more live births that unfortunately end in death. In Cuba, the "infant mortality" would be recorded as a still birth, a statistical category above an abortion.

------

This whole US medical debate leaves me cold. Most people don't understand health care or the economics of health care. I know that I don't. IME, these debates turn in to proxy discussions of phobias and existentialism. We know we're all going to die and we all fear a doctor telling us that we have terminal cancer. For most of us, a discussion of health care policy brings up these ideas and we viscerally hope that everyone, even the government, is on our side.

Unfortunately, in the case of the US, this debate has also become a litmus test of Obama's hardcore support.

Apparently it is 22,000 Americans die each year becuase they don't have Health insurance. Even more reason for reform. Doing nothing isn't an Option it costs more for less, 45 million don't have insurance, and most of American wants some type of reform.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/st...arly-because-t/

bush_cheney2004 · August 20, 2009

Apparently it is 22,000 Americans die each year becuase they don't have Health insurance. Even more reason for reform. Doing nothing isn't an Option it costs more for less, 45 million don't have insurance, and most of American wants some type of reform.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/st...arly-because-t/

Yea...just like "welfare reform".....LOL!

I got news for you...they're all gonna die anyway!

punked · August 20, 2009

Yea...just like "welfare reform".....LOL!
I got news for you...they're all gonna die anyway!

I like what Waxman is doing he is about to make this a populist thing instead of a Democrat thing. This is not over yet, doing nothing isn't an option anymore.

Shady · August 20, 2009

DOING NOTHING ISN'T AN OPTION.

Stop being so obtuse. I've already posted alternative plans to Obamacare. You continue to pose a false choice between "doing nothing" and Obamacare. THAT'S A COMPLETE LIE. STOP LYING, YOU LYING LIAR. There are other options than the crap the Dem congress is trying to put together.

bush_cheney2004 · August 20, 2009

I like what Waxman is doing he is about to make this a populist thing instead of a Democrat thing. This is not over yet, doing nothing isn't an option anymore.

Uh-oh...sounds like you have doubts...especially if you are counting on that screwball Waxman.

BubberMiley · August 20, 2009

There are other options than the crap the Dem congress is trying to put together.

Do you honestly not understand how democracy works?

Shady · August 20, 2009

I like what Waxman is doing

You mean you like what Pigman is doing. He's half-pig, half-man. :lol:

PIC

GostHacked · August 20, 2009

So what? More people die from auto crashes each year...so you wanna ban cars too?

Well, at least those who survive sever car crashes will rest easy knowing their medical expenses are covered if they can't afford them. Like punked says, doing nothing is not an option.

This has nothing to do with sick or dying people, just who is going to pay.

If you are on a health car plan that you pay into at work, and so does everyone else, you are going to be paying for someone elses medical expenses. I fail to see what the fuss is all about, because it is just going to inlcude everyone at this point and with a higer tax on you. Think of it as saving for that horrible rainy day you hope to never have.

And we are back to square one. How the hell does all this complaining on both sides resolve anything?

Also The Mayo Clinic is unique. So a bad example to be used to pro/con the whole situation. There are a concentrated number of specialists you can't find anywhere else. If they are good at what they do , then people from all over the world will flock to it. it does come at a price, and the uninsured need not waste their time there.

August

Also, where do you get this 15,000 number from? In the US, about 2 million people die every year. Are you saying that 15,000 die because they are afraid to go to a doctor? Was that the registered cause of death - "Death due to fear of doctor"?

No it's the fear of not finding a doctor in time to treat the illness.

bush_cheney2004 · August 20, 2009

Well, at least those who survive sever car crashes will rest easy knowing their medical expenses are covered if they can't afford them. Like punked says, doing nothing is not an option.

In this scenario, that would be burial expenses.

If you are on a health car plan that you pay into at work, and so does everyone else, you are going to be paying for someone elses medical expenses. I fail to see what the fuss is all about, because it is just going to inlcude everyone at this point and with a higer tax on you. Think of it as saving for that horrible rainy day you hope to never have.

What's so horrible.....I don't expect to live forever.

And we are back to square one. How the hell does all this complaining on both sides resolve anything?

Resolve what...something for nothing? Again, this is about who will pay for the uninsured, not health care.

Also The Mayo Clinic is unique. So a bad example to be used to pro/con the whole situation. There are a concentrated number of specialists you can't find anywhere else. If they are good at what they do , then people from all over the world will flock to it. it does come at a price, and the uninsured need not waste their time there.

Really? Seems that the Mayo Clinic(s) or Cleveland Clinic are good enough examples for Mr. Obama.....and many people who seek their services....even from Canada.

punked · August 20, 2009

Stop being so obtuse. I've already posted alternative plans to Obamacare. You continue to pose a false choice between "doing nothing" and Obamacare. THAT'S A COMPLETE LIE. STOP LYING, YOU LYING LIAR. There are other options than the crap the Dem congress is trying to put together.

You clearly haven't read the plan. Your alternative plan wont cover more people, it is a give away to the insurance lobby and it isn't costed. It is worse then doing nothing and GOP took a beating for it when they came out with in May it is why we here nothing of it. Doing Nothing is not an option Shady.

GostHacked · August 20, 2009

What's so horrible.....I don't expect to live forever.

Well, I do hope you live the rest of your life trouble and illness free. Hate to see you suffer and not be able to afford it.

Resolve what...something for nothing? Again, this is about who will pay for the uninsured, not health care.

It is about health care, for those who don't have it. What is so hard to understand about that?

Really? Seems that the Mayo Clinic(s) or Cleveland Clinic are good enough examples for Mr. Obama.....and many people who seek their services....even from Canada.

I guess you missed my point again, which you do deliberately. It's expected when you post. As I said, when you have a concentration of specialists, people from all over the world, and yes that includes Canada, will flock to the clinic because of their uniqueness. It is a bad example for Obama to use.

bush_cheney2004 · August 20, 2009

Well, I do hope you live the rest of your life trouble and illness free. Hate to see you suffer and not be able to afford it.

Sorry, but that is a false expectation....no wonder people are so neurotic about health care.

It is about health care, for those who don't have it. What is so hard to understand about that?

Americans get more "health care" than Canadians...the fight is over how to reduce costs and continue to pay for it.

I guess you missed my point again, which you do deliberately. It's expected when you post. As I said, when you have a concentration of specialists, people from all over the world, and yes that includes Canada, will flock to the clinic because of their uniqueness. It is a bad example for Obama to use.

You obviously have not been following the details...you do this deliberately. If you are going oggle American soap operas, please try to keep up. There is a specific reason why Mayo's methodolgy and compensation system are being studied.

punked · August 20, 2009

Americans get more "health care" than Canadians...the fight is over how to reduce costs and continue to pay for it.

Wrong some Americans get more Health care then Canadians most get less due to costs, lost insurance and so on. I would rather see a doctor then take the chance on winning the lotto to see the best doctor. An American every 30 seconds goes bankrupt due to health care costs. Doing nothing is not an option.

GostHacked · August 20, 2009

Sorry, but that is a false expectation....no wonder people are so neurotic about health care.

Sure, tell me how it is a false expectation. And then tell me it never happens.

Americans get more "health care" than Canadians...the fight is over how to reduce costs and continue to pay for it.

And to provide coverage for those who don't have it. Hence the term universal health care.

You obviously have not been following the details...you do this deliberately. If you are going oggle American soap operas, please try to keep up. There is a specific reason why Mayo's methodolgy and compensation system are being studied.

What are the details, because the last 4 pages have been utter tripe and nonsense. You certainly are not providing any answers. And this is part of the problem when debating this health care reform. This back and forth between both sides will NOT help the ones who need it most. Just more flapping of gums and no resolution in sight. Bogged down by idiotic memes that stiffle any kind of intelligent converstation towards this..

...and this is what this thread is all about in the first place. After 10 pages we have no solution at all. Thank you all for proving my point.

bush_cheney2004 · August 20, 2009

Wrong some Americans get more Health care then Canadians most get less due to costs, lost insurance and so on. I would rather see a doctor then take the chance on winning the lotto to see the best doctor. An American every 30 seconds goes bankrupt due to health care costs. Doing nothing is not an option.

America produces and delivers more health care than Canada, so much so, there is a surplus that provinces take advantage of because their systems cannot meet demand for many specialties. In Manitoba, they are still waiting for MRI labs because of a few million (measley) dollars...that's pathetic.

Oleg Bach · August 20, 2009

America produces and delivers more health care than Canada, so much so, there is a surplus that provinces take advantage of because their systems cannot meet demand for many specialties. In Manitoba, they are still waiting for MRI labs because of a few million (measley) dollars...that's pathetic.

Pathetic - pathos - sick! It was better back before they secularized the nations. I remember being sick - and a guy with a black bag would show up at your house - you could give him a few bucks for the visit - or a chicken if you had one..this was civilized.

bush_cheney2004 · August 20, 2009

Pathetic - pathos - sick! It was better back before they secularized the nations. I remember being sick - and a guy with a black bag would show up at your house - you could give him a few bucks for the visit - or a chicken if you had one..this was civilized.

Yep...that's exactly how it was....Mama paid in cash! :lol: