10 Billion for military equipment

[Jerry J. Fortin]

IF Canada spent ten times as much per year for the next ten years we might be able to field sufficient force to protect this nation, and project at least a minimum amount of force outside the nation while still defending our own land. The Canadian people will not accept this number.

Aircraft carrier= 5 billion plus per ship

90 aircraft per ship = 2.5 billion per ship

2700 sailors per ship plus fuel and munitions about 160 million per year per ship

Each strike group consists of;

2/3 destroyers or frigates 1/2.5 billion per ship

2 Aegis cruisers 1/2 billion per ship

2/3 guided missile destroyers 2.5/3.5 billion per ship

2 attack submarines 2 billion per boat.

Projected cost per carrier strike group possibly 31 billion per group, plus annual operating costs. This does not include supply and refit ships for each group. Canada needs about four of these damned things so you can figure 120 plus billion dollars. Lots of bucks, lots and lots. That is just to cover navy people.........

[Machjo]

All wars are come as your are parties....why on earth would you suggest we always be under equipped, under armed and under manned. Does you hate of Canada go that far?

This is ridiculous. If you want to criticize his ideas on legitimate grounds, please do so. But to insult him by insinuating that his idas are somehow 'un-Canadian' is pure rubbish. 'un-Canadian' sounds about as contorted as 'un-American', another word highly abused, and loosely defined as anything I don't agree with.

And seriously, is Canada really thratened? What is the Taliban going to do, get on rafts and start paddling to Canada?

[bush_cheney2004]

What's really dishonourable is keeping treaties with interfering super-powers that preach democracy and liberty with one hand while aiding and abbetting dictatorships with the other. We should be ashamed of ourselves. The fact is we should be in America's face and telling it to stand down and behave itself.

Would that be before or after the next shipment of oil, uranium, lumber, seafood, beef, aluminum, automobiles, and parts?

[Machjo]

10 bil is a pittance for military equipment. We need much more than that to modernize and properly equip our military. The money needs to be spent in times of peace as well as in times of war, so that our forces are kept viable and up to date.

My dad was in the military, and he was saying they waste alot of money on compulsory French-language courses. Why not cut such wastage first.

[Machjo]

What I want is a libertarian government, fiscally conservative and spendthrift. One possibility would be to let businesses pay for naval escorts. I'm sure with ever more pirating off coasts, in Somalia and such, that petroleum companies or Cruise Lines would be willing to either arm themselves or appreciate it if Navy's went into the business of providing protection for a fee. User pay baby. No more socialism and statism. No more welfare subsidies to large corporations. Why should my tax dollars pay to provide naval escort to Esso ships? I don't get police escort if I decide to cross a bad part of town as a short cut to get to a friend's place, so why should they.

User pay, baby, user pay.

[ba1614]

oops, wrong thread. lol

Edited July 12, 2009 by ba1614

[eyeball]

What I want is a libertarian government, fiscally conservative and spendthrift. One possibility would be to let businesses pay for naval escorts. I'm sure with ever more pirating off coasts, in Somalia and such, that petroleum companies or Cruise Lines would be willing to either arm themselves or appreciate it if Navy's went into the business of providing protection for a fee. User pay baby. No more socialism and statism. No more welfare subsidies to large corporations. Why should my tax dollars pay to provide naval escort to Esso ships? I don't get police escort if I decide to cross a bad part of town as a short cut to get to a friend's place, so why should they.

User pay, baby, user pay.

In the same vein why should I have to pay for military adventures in far off lands? The people who support missions like the one to Afghanistan should put their money where their mouths are and buy war bonds to fund it.

[xul]

E

If we had gone to Iraq, like the Australians did, we would have earned a lot of good will from the Americans,

The real world is not like the magic world in the story of Harry Potter...once the Dark Lord wins, he will reward his Death Eaters who have ever sacrificed themselves for his raise.

But in our miserable real world.....BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A consortium led by BP and including China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC) on Tuesday accepted a contract to develop Iraq's biggest oilfield, the 17-billion barrel southern Rumaila field.

Even in Harry Potter's magic world, the Dark Lord didn't respect Bellatrix, who spent sixteen years in jail for trying to rescue him when he fell, more than Snape who did nothing for Dark Lord but just kept himself safe, just because of what Snape had told Bellatrix, "I had sixteen years of information on Dumbledore to give him when he returned, a rather more useful welcome-back present than endless reminiscences of how unpleasant Azkaban is... "

and would in all likelihood have taken far fewer casualties. The Aussies, I think, lost a couple of people in Iraq compared to our 124 to date in Afghanistan.

There also are Australian troops and other NATO members in Afghanistan, but we hardly hear that they have a lot of casualties....if soldiers just seat in bunkers of their military fortresses never going out, they will unlikely get casualties. Canadian troops have lost a lot of soldiers in Afghanistan becasue they are more initiative in the mission, always go out to patrol vicinal area and protect their supply lines. It seems that Canadian troops is the only NATO troop (except Americans themselves) which like takes initiative actions in Afghanistan, and the mountainous south of Afghanistan is the worst place for these foreign soldiers, regardless they are NATO soldiers or Soviet soldiers.

Edited July 12, 2009 by xul

[Average Joe]

While the death of the Arrow was indeed a blow for Canadian aviation, the resulting brain drain to the USA wasn't without its good points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Chamberlin

Ok I read that and can't figure out who you think it was good for. The way I read it, it was a great day for Uncle Sam and the Space program when the Arrow was cancelled. Bad for us.

[Average Joe]

That's not true. About half of the budget goes to personnel, including administration. That's actually lower than places like the Netherlands.

My bad, the way I read it was a lot of wasted money for dead wood personal. I wish I could find it again but my head hurts from all those cars at the Honda Indy buzzing around in my ears.

[tango]

In the same vein why should I have to pay for military adventures in far off lands? The people who support missions like the one to Afghanistan should put their money where their mouths are and buy war bonds to fund it.

Hmm ... good idea!

The war profiteers can fund the war.

I'm sure they'll go for that.

[Argus]

My bad, the way I read it was a lot of wasted money for dead wood personal. I wish I could find it again but my head hurts from all those cars at the Honda Indy buzzing around in my ears.

I do recall this bit of information. DND has more HR employees than it does actual combat troops. For that matter, I believe it has more officers than it does privates and corporals. At least it did at one point.

One of the problems is that Canada is a member of all sorts of international groups, for which we need to send a military representative. The bigger countries with the bigger armies have caused rank inflation among the others. For example, if there's going to be a council of whatever, and the Americans are going to send a three star general as their representative, well then, nobody else wants to send a colonel. They don't want their representative having to call the American representative "sir" all the time in a supposed council of equals. So Canada has all sorts of generals for this purpose, few of whom have ever really commended anything over a platoon, nor are really capable of doing so.

[Smallc]

Yes, there is a rather big civilian staff at DND, and I'm really not sure why.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Yes, there is a rather big civilian staff at DND, and I'm really not sure why.

Increasing defense spending will do little to change that, in fact the opposite is true.

[CAMP]

Show some proof they hated Canadians before 911, you can't because it is not there. It was the US involvement with the mujahedeen by supplying them weapons for the soviet war in afghanistan.With mujahedeen leaders unable to agree on a structure for governance, chaos ensued, with constantly reorganizing alliances fighting for control of ill-defined territories, leaving the country devastated.

You need understand the root of the war and Canada had nothing to do with it until Harper chose to INVADE not peacekeeping but full blown war, a war that will never end. Harpers a Bush wannabe Tyrant,

There will always be some people in a population that don't like Canada. But for the most part I believe you are right. We have left the realm of peacekeepers and entered the realm of aggression. We as a country have made a grave mistake and will feel the repercussions of it for many years to come. We have lost the respect we use to have as peacekeepers in many countries now. When it's all boiled down we were spun the concept that the women and girls over there were being oppressed, so in comes Canada to save them, because we are so noble. The truth is this is a war to control a large percentage of oil, that would otherwise fall into some other controlling interest than the UN countries.

I'm worried we are there for a very long time, and casualties will increase much higher than now, and even what we are being told presently by the news media.

The following point can only be considered hear say but I personally believe the relevance of it. This information was given to me by a veteran from the inside.

Quote: There are well over double the amount of casualties than the media can state because the DND won't release the number of the other casualties of this war. Soldiers who come home and suffer from PTS (Post Traumatic Syndrome) who commit suicide. Our government tries to shove this information under the carpet.

[Machjo]

In the same vein why should I have to pay for military adventures in far off lands? The people who support missions like the one to Afghanistan should put their money where their mouths are and buy war bonds to fund it.

War bonds? War isn't an investment. Where will the government get the money to pay the bonds back?

Forget war bonds. You want to fight in far off lands, the military could register as a charity. Make charitable contributions tax dedudtible, simple as that. You want to feed the military, do it on your own dime. No more socialism and welfare statism period.

[Machjo]

Hmm ... good idea!

The war profiteers can fund the war.

I'm sure they'll go for that.

The military industrial complex is the most socialist bunch there is. Let's face it, their entire revenue comes from taxpayers! No taxes, and they'd all go under. And yet they're the Conservative Party's best friends. Oh the hypocricy, an anti-socialist party smooching with the most socialistic corporate-socialist bunch around.

When even the Conservatives have turned to such socialism, who's left to stand up for capitalism?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The military industrial complex is the most socialist bunch there is. Let's face it, their entire revenue comes from taxpayers! No taxes, and they'd all go under. And yet they're the Conservative Party's best friends. Oh the hypocricy, an anti-socialist party smooching with the most socialistic corporate-socialist bunch around.

When even the Conservatives have turned to such socialism, who's left to stand up for capitalism?

Nobody, because it works as well as communism. In either system money gravitates toward an elite few while the general population is converted to wage slaves.

[Machjo]

Nobody, because it works as well as communism. In either system money gravitates toward an elite few while the general population is converted to wage slaves.

And that I think is why I tend to support either openly socialist parties (such as the NDP) or decidedly free-market ones like the Libertarian Party. Though they may appear at opposite ends of the spectrum (and indeed they are), at least they're honest and consistent. The NDP says it's socialist, and makes no bones bout taxing people and using the money for education, health care, etc.

The Libertarian Party makes no bones about cutting spending through and through.

The Conservatives and the Liberals? Tax the people and subsidize industry! At least with the NDP we'd get quality government services in education, etc., and with the Libertarians, government stepping out of the way to let us live our lives. Conservatives and Liberals? Take the money, make all kinds of rules, and give nothing in return! And we vote for this riff raff?

The Green Party? I don't know, maby they might be reasonable too.

But in the end, we vote for the government we deserve.

[CAMP]

And that I think is why I tend to support either openly socialist parties (such as the NDP) or decidedly free-market ones like the Libertarian Party. Though they may appear at opposite ends of the spectrum (and indeed they are), at least they're honest and consistent. The NDP says it's socialist, and makes no bones bout taxing people and using the money for education, health care, etc.

The Libertarian Party makes no bones about cutting spending through and through.

The Conservatives and the Liberals? Tax the people and subsidize industry! At least with the NDP we'd get quality government services in education, etc., and with the Libertarians, government stepping out of the way to let us live our lives. Conservatives and Liberals? Take the money, make all kinds of rules, and give nothing in return! And we vote for this riff raff?

The Green Party? I don't know, maby they might be reasonable too.

But in the end, we vote for the government we deserve.

Conservatives and Liberals are not all that different these days. It's more about power and who will rule than the ideologies of the two parties. Both of these parties should be given credit for running Canada over the years and at least keeping a decent standard of living going. Rules and regulations are a necessary evil to keep a social and economic engine going in a positive direction.

You'd get buttered up pretty good with the NDP, unfortunately I believe we'd have gone bankrupt fiscally by now, had we ever had an NDP majority federally. Not to say we may wind up there eventually because of poor fiscal management lately.

With the Libertarians we'd have the freedom to run our lives and own our properties with little taxation. The social safety net although inadequate would largely disappear. Those who could afford it would live behind barbed wire fenced neighborhoods with security patrol, while the rest of us lived in anarchy.

Don't sell your country short. Their are many way worst places to live in this world!

[Jerry J. Fortin]

If you look at provincial NDP governments you will find stunted or depressed economies and excessive debt and taxation. Socialism is merely another word for communism. We don't need that, but we do need something different from what we have.

[Smallc]

Yes, like the depressed economy of Manitoba....oh...wait.

[Machjo]

Yes, like the depressed economy of Manitoba....oh...wait.

Don't confuse me with facts; my mind is already made up.

And just to answer the post above yours, no socialism and communism are not the same thing.

[Machjo]

Just to clarify, if I had a choice between a libertarian government and a socialist one, I'd likely go for the libertarian one. And no, I don't believe the poor would suffer much. I believe human nature to be good overall, and that push come to shove, the rich would willingly help the poor.

However, if it's a choice between being taxed and getting education and a government safety net on the one hand, and being taxed and having all my money flushed down corporate welfare on the other, I'd choose the former. At least I'm getting something in return for my taxes then.

[Smallc]

should clarify though. Most Provincial NDP governments aren't driven by socialist ideologies.