Open warfare in South Ossetia

Argus · August 13, 2008

With the Internet and computer technology there is another aspect of this conflict that has not been mentioned yet.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...813?hub=SciTech

Hitler'd

Controlling the flow and type of information getting out is anther strategy the military can use to their ends.

Russia has an enormous criminal organization which is involved in every form of internet theft, hacking, and virus making, with ties to the government, of course. It has been known to make attacks on US government computers as well.

In fact, China and Russia are notorious for supporting widespread and well-organized attempts at industrial and military espionage through hacking and disrupting western computer systems - even in peacetime.

myata · August 13, 2008

If the russians hit the capital it will be within 3 days.

Allright. See you here the night of 16th. Hopefully, much smoke will clear out by then.

Argus · August 13, 2008

Did I say that? I just thought that it was time for the Neocons and American Exceptionalists to consider for once, that other regions of the World have their own regional interests! If you were a Russian, you would agree with the majority of Russians that the U.S. and Western Europe has been working a strategy of carving out former Soviet territories to exploit their oil and other national resources, and trying to surround Russia with hostile states armed with American missiles.

People who are kept in ignorance, with no free press or media, will often believe amazingly stupid things. That doesn't justify their actions or make anything they believe correct.

Everyone who criticizes U.S. foreign policy (and yes, the Clinton Admin. was practicing the same strategy on a more limited scale) is immediately charged as being anti-American.

When one brings up those criticisms in order to excuse brutal behaviour by dictatorships it's not surprising people would accuse you of being extremely anti-American - to the point you embrace any tyranny which is seen as being against the US.

GostHacked · August 13, 2008

People who are kept in ignorance, with no free press or media, will often believe amazingly stupid things. That doesn't justify their actions or make anything they believe correct.

Even free press can keep people in the dark. Along with the media, blame those ignorant people who don't bother to look for the truth and take it at face value

When one brings up those criticisms in order to excuse brutal behaviour by dictatorships it's not surprising people would accuse you of being extremely anti-American - to the point you embrace any tyranny which is seen as being against the US.

To a Russian, the US is the evil empire. If you ignore this, then you could be one of the ignorant.

Russia has an enormous criminal organization which is involved in every form of internet theft, hacking, and virus making, with ties to the government, of course. It has been known to make attacks on US government computers as well.

The Pentagon also has a group in place to do just the things Russia is using. Russia just does not seem to be shy about how they go about things. The Chinese are very good at the hacking as well it seems. The Pentagon is very aware of the importance of controlling information on the Internet.

The one advantage the US has over Russia is that they have more control over DNS. DNS is an essential part of the protocol we all use to comminicate through the Internet.

When you can control the Internet, you can control information. Everyone is playing this game.

bush_cheney2004 · August 13, 2008

Did I say that? I just thought that it was time for the Neocons and American Exceptionalists to consider for once, that other regions of the World have their own regional interests! If you were a Russian, you would agree with the majority of Russians that the U.S. and Western Europe has been working a strategy of carving out former Soviet territories to exploit their oil and other national resources, and trying to surround Russia with hostile states armed with American missiles. Sometimes the picture looks different when you're standing in a different spot in the room!

Hmmm..."former Soviet territories" just about says it all. Please fly to one of these former satellite states and say that.

Everyone who criticizes U.S. foreign policy (and yes, the Clinton Admin. was practicing the same strategy on a more limited scale) is immediately charged as being anti-American. This should make one consider the fascist nature of extreme nationalistic thinking which responds to criticism with charges of anti-Americanism!

Of course...and this only applies to the Americans.

bush_cheney2004 · August 13, 2008

....To a Russian, the US is the evil empire.

Not quite...doesn't explain why so many have joined the "dark side". How much for US work visa, comrade?

When you can control the Internet, you can control information. Everyone is playing this game.

Good thing our guy Al Gore invented it, huh?

GostHacked · August 13, 2008

Not quite...doesn't explain why so many have joined the "dark side". How much for US work visa, comrade?

Russian Brides marry you to come over, divorce you so they can stay. I have actually SEEN this happen. Then they go off and work in the adult entertainment industry.

To the US Russia is evil... and vice versa... good try though.

Good thing our guy Al Gore invented it, huh?

Not to mention another senator thinks it is a series of tubes.

moderateamericain · August 13, 2008

I was watching CNN today and they were showing a broadcast with BBC reporters, apparently the Russians are moving east on the main road. They same reporter drove down the road and found a Georgian military unit, most likely recon within 3 miles of the Russians. I have news for you people. Military armies that close to each other are like bugs to a zapper, get close enough and somebody is going to end up dead. Do you really think Russia gives a shit about south ossetia really? Not a fat chance, its just a convenient excuse for a bigger game. If Russia doesn't stop i am willing to bet that Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine are next.

Edited August 13, 2008 by moderateamericain

bush_cheney2004 · August 13, 2008

Russian Brides marry you to come over, divorce you so they can stay. I have actually SEEN this happen. Then they go off and work in the adult entertainment industry.

I think you contradicted your argument...America needs more porn stars.

To the US Russia is evil... and vice versa... good try though.

Thanks for fixing your previous error...Russia...not Russians. The Russians who work with me on H1B visas are not porn stars...just like the Canadians who come here for big opportunities in the evil empire.

GostHacked · August 13, 2008

I think you contradicted your argument...America needs more porn stars.

I guess that is because America's waste line is getting to big. They don't make for great porn stars.

Thanks for fixing your previous error...Russia...not Russians. The Russians who work with me on H1B visas are not porn stars...just like the Canadians who come here for big opportunities in the evil empire.

Actuallty I should have said to your average russian. But I accept your apologies.

bush_cheney2004 · August 13, 2008

I guess that is because America's waste line is getting to big. They don't make for great porn stars.

We got plenty of 'em...but we also import 'em from Canada too (e.g. Pam Anderson). She loved it so much she became a citizen and won't go home! :lol:

Actuallty I should have said to your average russian. But I accept your apologies.

I don't think you would know an average Russian even if he/she jumped in your lap and called you mama.

AngusThermopyle · August 13, 2008

The one advantage the US has over Russia is that they have more control over DNS.

WTF!

Obviously you have the most fleeting grasp of the internet and the technology that makes it possible. First question, do you even know what DNS stands for? I'll be nice and tell you. It means Domain Name Server, the key word here being server. Now, could you explain how the US controls all the servers belonging to all the providers in all the countries around the world?

No you can't, because obviously they don't. If they did do you think internet connectivity would even exist in countries hostile to the US? And just how exactly could they even begin to control all those servers in all those countries? Do you think all those countries would stand for the US controlling their internet resource? What they can do is the same thing that all other countries can do, they can attack and disrupt through the use of various means, DoS, that sort of thing. They can not however control another countries internet service.

Just more paranoid garbage based on an extreme lack of knowledge.

By the way, the newest and most effective attack is now the DDoS attack, very difficult to counter and very effective in shutting down the parties attacked.

If you are interested in knowing more about this subject I suggest you check out this site, the Gibson Research Institute. This guy is good, one of the very best in the world. Spend some time on his site and you'll start to learn just how these things are done. a really interest article is the one where he describes a DoS attack against the institute using Zombie Bots and how he countered them and finally shut them down.

Gibson Research Institute

Edited August 13, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

MMT · August 13, 2008

To a Russian, the US is the evil empire. If you ignore this, then you could be one of the ignorant...
To the US Russia is evil... and vice versa... good try though...

There are Russians and Russians. Some identify themselves as Russia's people. Others call Russia exactly as you wrote - the Evil empire. They even don't want to use such name as Russia for their future national state. They prefer Rus. Read about what Russian nationalists say about "War in Georgia" http://vdesyatku.com/eng/index.php?option=...4&Itemid=25

Quote:

Patriotism of "Russian" idiots is the last hope of Kremlin to stay in power to carry on the robbery and genocide of Russian people, accompanied by a perfectly planned relocation of the North Caucasus residents to the heartland of Russia. And the population of migrants from Caucasus is rapidly growing, as it’s generously sponsored by the earnings taken from Russians.
The ground for Russia’s participation in the conflict is the desire to control a smuggling process through the Roksky tunnel, where the Russia’s peacekeepers are simply babysitting a free-trade flow of Chechen oil in exchange to non-certified alcohol produced by our Ossetian friends in millions of deciliters. The Kremlin’s authorities do not care what poisoned Ossetian vodka killed or made the disabled already hundreds of thousands of Russian men and women.

It is time once and for all for everybody, calling themselves Russians, to remember: what is good for Kremlin that is bad for Russians... Who stands for Kremlin that is against Russians.

Another quote:

We can only conclude that by escalating the conflict in South Ossetia, the imperialistic Russophobe monster continues to carry on its anti-Russian policy. And we could only wait, when it will break its back over Georgia as the anti-Russian Soviet Union once broke its back over Afghanistan.

GostHacked · August 13, 2008

We got plenty of 'em...but we also import 'em from Canada too (e.g. Pam Anderson). She loved it so much she became a citizen and won't go home!

You can keep her, along with Celine Dion.

I don't think you would know an average Russian even if he/she jumped in your lap and called you mama.

Probably right, I have only met a couple of those Russians who wanted to come over to Canada for a better life. I guess they are not the average Russian.

Angus.

Obviously you have the most fleeting grasp of the internet and the technology that makes it possible. First question, do you even know what DNS stands for? I'll be nice and tell you. It means Domain Name Server, the key word here being server. Now, could you explain how the US controls all the servers belonging to all the providers in all the countries around the world?

http://www.slate.com/id/2131182/

CANN hasn't been doing a bad job. For one thing, there have been no major outages in its seven years as cyber traffic cop. Nevertheless, in the months leading up to the summit, a group of countries (most notably Brazil, Cuba, Iran, and Zimbabwe) pressed the United Nations to assume ICANN's functions, while members of the European Union clamored to dilute American control.

How the hell do you think China conrtols it's internet. China blocks many websites outside of China. This is done by simply modifying a DNS table. Not to mention firewalls and proxys to prevent outside getting in and vise versa. DNS propagates worldwide. So it would be easy to modify one, and have it propagate. Sure this is a form of attack. But it also shows how essential DNS is to internet traffic.

The TCP/IP protocol was invented and first used by the US military. Chances are they know quite abit on how to exploit it for their purposes. This includes DNS.

If you think that another country cannot control the DNS in another country, then you are failing to understand more than me. IT might be really hard, but it can be done. A denial of service attack is meant to take down a DNS server. Screw that server up and you cannot get to for example ... this website. EDIT .. So this disrupts internet traffic, unless you know the IP of where you want to go. Control the DNS means you can direct traffic on the Internet. This is what DNS is in a nutshell. When it comes to internet addresses like .coms and stuff. done edit.

I can change your DNS server and have all sorts of things point to somewhere else.

Messed with PCs since about 95.

2 years of college

Honours diploma in Network Technology

4 years call center experience.

2 years as my current role as Systems Administrator for a grocery warehouse.

You are right. I know nothing about how DNS works.

Edited August 14, 2008 by GostHacked

August1991 · August 14, 2008

What I don't get is this.
The two autonomous states/regions in Georgia (South Ottestia and Abkhazia). Russia seems to have influence on those two areas. Since they are autonomous, which means they run their own show, but has ties to Georgia. If they want to break away, Russia will help make it happen.

Do these two regions want to rejoin Russia? Or do they just want their own independance from Georgia.

GostHacked, these are good questions but you should understand the notion of "governance" or "sovereignty" in some parts of the world. To compare to Canada, does the Quebec government govern in Oka or Kanasatake?

Russia has 89 constituent parts - some are independent republics. South Ossetia, like Abkhazia, is on Geirgian territory but God knows where they paid their taxes.

Georgia launched the major offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday.
Lavrov told reporters Saturday that some 1,500 people had been killed in South Ossetia since Friday, with the death toll rising. The figures could not be independently confirmed.

But residents of the South Ossentian provincial capital Tskhinvali who survived the bombardment by hiding in basements and later fled the city estimated that hundreds of civilians had died. They said bodies were lying everywhere.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hV2N6fV...IdaZ4QD92FDLSG0

I have noticed this line extensively in the Western press. "Russia responded to a Georgian invasion of South Ossetia". IOW, I think the Russians have cleverly made a good PR case (and chosen their timing after the G8 but during the Olympics impeccably).

For example, here is how Russia's MFA Lavrov described this:

"Over the next few days, on the condition that Georgia refrains from military activity and keeps its forces out of the region, Russia will continue to take the diplomatic steps required to consolidate this temporary cessation to hostilities," Lavrov wrote.
He also criticised what he described as a "truly David and Goliath interpretation" of the conflict in which "the plucky republic of Georgia, with just a few million citizens, was attacked by its giant eastern neighbour".

"Let me be absolutely clear," he wrote. "This is not a conflict of Russia's making. This is not a conflict of Russia's choosing. There are no winners from this conflict."

Reuters

The truth is a little different. In my mind, the Russians are using this as a pretext to justify their action. Read this interview with Mikhail Saakashvili in Newsweek. I quote at length:

First of all, the Russian troops in North Ossetia [part of the Russian Federation] were massing for the last four months. They called it "exercises." But every time I would hear about these exercises, the Russians would say that they were preparing for military actions inside Georgia. They would say it publicly. President Putin would always hint at that. He said, "We need different ways to get to Georgia." So we knew Russia was preparing. We were worried about it. But there wasn't much we could do about it.
Now, in South Ossetia, there had been tensions for years. That's nothing new. So when the latest round of confrontations had started we didn't take it too seriously. I mean, they tried to blow up houses and opened fire on [a Georgian] police convoy. We returned fire and killed five or six of them. I thought this would end there. But then they started to bombard villages we controlled with mortar fire. But even these kind of things had happened in the past, so initially we didn't think it was serious. But sometime late on the afternoon it all started, I started to smell something bad. So I began, frantically, to call the Russians. They wouldn't respond. I called the secretary-general of NATO. I called [European Union High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy] Javier Solana. I called several other European presidents, like [Lithuanian President] Valdas Adamkus. I said we are coming under an extensive barrage, and nothing like this has ever happened before. Something is wrong here.

Then we contacted the local Russian peacekeepers in Ossetia. The head of the local peacekeepers and Ambassador Yuri Popov [Russian co-chair of the Joint Control Commission for Georgian-Ossetian Conflict Resolution]. Both said they no longer had control over the Ossetian separatists. They told us that the [separatists] are out of their minds. That they don't pick up their phones and can't be reached. But the whole point is that this whole thing started immediately after [Ossetian separatist leader Eduard] Kokoity came back from Moscow. We asked the Russians, "What's going on?" I believe that there are different factions in Russia fighting each other. One faction has become nasty, and the other doesn't know what they are up to.

...

Was this planned by the Russians?

When I called the secretary-general of NATO [Jaap de Hoop Scheffer], I said, "Look, this is happening. Conditions are nasty." I said the Russians are being helpful. They are trying to stop the separatists. And you know what he told me? He said, "I don't think so. I think this is a Russian game."

Newsweek

----

To me, one of the more ominous comments in the interview is the refence to "different factions in Russia". IMV, and I'm going way out here, Moscow is a place waiting for a silent coup. There is a tremendous amount of oil money sitting on the table in Russia and some people must be planning to get hold of it. Russia has all the makings of a northern Nigerian with the difference that outsiders would barely know that a coup had occurred.

YEGmann · August 14, 2008

The independence of Ossetia is not recognised by any nation except Russia.

I am affraid this is not precisely true. Russia, as far as I am concerned, has not recognised independence of South Ossetia. So far Russia has not disputed SO being part of the state of Georgia.

There is no doubt it was Russian aggression under the pretex of "Russian citizens were killed in South Ossetia."

myata · August 14, 2008

The truth is a little different. In my mind, the Russians are using this as a pretext to justify their action. Read this interview with Mikhail Saakashvili in Newsweek. I quote at

Does it change the fact, that without that first massive assault, the disaster the see now would not have happened?

As it may not have happened if the US, and their buddies in the Security Council showed a genuine committment to justice and peace, and came up with a resolution to stop hostilities, there at the first meeting. Withdraw invading troops from the peacekeeping zone. Or just called their protege and told him the same thing, making sure he understands they mean it. Wouldn't that have been an act of "peace", I mean something actually confirmed by deed, act, rather than drowned in the double talk we're so used to?

"Provocations"? Sure, there're provocations and provocations. Anybody with a minimal understanding of how things work, would know that build up for that kind of military operation takes a while (ask e.g. A/G or M/A here: how long would it take to get 9,000 troops with heavy weaponry, aircraft, and all supplies, into attack position??). But certainly, massive build up of military presence next to the zone of conflict, has nothing to do with, "provocations", does it?

Pretext to justify .... One more time, and maybe try to answer this time around, if an Israeli settlement in the West Bank came under massive rocket fire, bombardment and ground assault from e.g. Iran, what would the "action" be? Who would condemn it, and call it disportionate? No need to guess, just google for "Lebanon war".

Western policies, and first of all, those of the US, are a big and outrageous pile of hypocrisy. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if they eventually pull us back into a new cold war. I mean there's a new guy in Kremlin, and close as he may be to Putin, he isn't Putin. Things change. This may have been the chance to show, for once, what we mean it when we lecture about peace and justice; maybe if they saw it, something would have moved on their side too? But who would know, now? In the end, it all came down to the same, tried and trusted, "see no evil, hear no evil", from those who're mine. And so, it'll now be.

Palestine

Kosovo

Lebanon

Afghanistan

Iraq

Our proud record. Our ticket to lecture others about peace, justice and "proportional" response.

Argus · August 14, 2008

blah-blah-blah Russians are wonderful, peace loving folks, blah-blah-blah, evil American capitalist swine, blah-blah-blah warmongering Georgian capitalists, blah-blah-blah.

I've seen this sort of thing before. Nothing and no one will ever convince the likes of Myata that America is not the source of all evil on earth and that anyone, be they Hitler or Stalin or any combination thereof who in some way oppose America, isn't deserving of his complete admiration and defense.

mzaseka · August 14, 2008

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080808/ap_on_...CwSd6Mh78pvaA8F
In case you dont know this Georgia is actively trying to join with NATO. The US trains Georgian troops who currently have about 2k in Iraq. This is getting beyond serious. Open warefare is a big deal. Especially when dealing with two kids on the block who historically dont flinch when it comes to games of chicken.

The truth about this war is here: http://www.vdesyatku.net/eng/

GostHacked · August 14, 2008

I've seen this sort of thing before. Nothing and no one will ever convince the likes of Myata that America is not the source of all evil on earth and that anyone, be they Hitler or Stalin or any combination thereof who in some way oppose America, isn't deserving of his complete admiration and defense.

No, it is not the source of all evil, but some of it.

Rue · August 14, 2008

Typical crock from you... The rest is just more of your typical anti-American ranting even while your references come from the same place. Either way, all you can do is sit in your peanut gallery seat and watch while the big dogs play. Popcorn?

Get it right. Anti-Buish foreign policy ranting. It is precisely because I am pro US I criticize his foreign policy as being the worst possible thing for US interests overseas and what has led to this fiasco.

The Bush legacy is about protecting oil corporations and Haliburton and not give one's rat ass about US interests.

You want Russia out of Georgia, its simple. They are thugs. They are brutal facist thugs looking for money and leverage in future oil deals. What do you think this is about? Its a shake down.

Its your stooge Bush an his oil conglamorate being shaken down and laughed at by the Russian mob demanding a piece of the action.

The mob has just started. When the mob shakes you down once and gets away with it, its just the first of many and that is what is unfolding, a realignment and the Russian mob trying to get a piece of the action.

Did you really think the oil cartel would march into Georgia and dictate to Russia the terms of business?

Rue · August 14, 2008

Argus,

The US is just as much a victim as is anyone else. All countries are being held hostage to the oil conglamorates and their stooge puppet Bush and now the Russian mob demanding a piece of their action. We know what Putin is, a facist thug and hired gun for the mob. He was otherwise unemployed.

We know what Bush is, a stooge, a bafoon, a prancing idiot on a string that the oil network has used to control the US. US interests and foreign policy have been crippled and destroyed by the oil conglamorates and their Bush stooges. The US has been raped for over 8 years by the oil betwork as Bush sits their giggling like a baboon.

Did anyone really expect the Russian mob to sit there and not want a piece of the action? How stupid does it get. The oil network pranced into Georgia thinking this was Nigeria. Talk about stupid. Where the f..ck did they think they were? Did they not think they needed to sit down first with the mob and pay a terrirotial fee?

That is all this is about. The oil barons are being shaken down. Putin is just a gun for hire at this point. He needs the mob to survive and build his own empire. So they are in an alliance. They could turn on each other in a split second.

As for the Bush legacy of selling out the US and crippling it permanently so it could engineer a series of corupt contractual alliances with Haliburton and reep record profits, its all fate accompli.

The only question is, does the next US President have any chance of distancing US interests from these oil interests. The next President will if they are willing to renew a working relationship with the Pentagon and cowtow to its desire to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan but be able to engage in world wide engagements against terrorists with quick moving mobile strike forces.

The days of large conventional armies and expending economies on occupying countries is over. Afghanistan and Iraq once again show what took Russia down in the first place, what took the US down in Vietnam and why even the Russian thugs aren't going to leave their facist thug soldiers in Georgia for too long. They know damn well they will turn into a rogue army and turn on their masters. The Russian army is running around raping and pillaging. Does that sound like a disciplined strike force or a bunch of baboons let loose because at the moment they suit the mob's purpose?

Civilians will die because of some oil executives and mobsters engaging in a pissing match that could have more easily been conducted in some f..cking casino in Monaco..

moderateamericain · August 14, 2008

Russian says the west can forget about Territorial integrity of Georgia

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_russia

bush_cheney2004 · August 14, 2008

blah-blah-blah Russians are wonderful, peace loving folks, blah-blah-blah, evil American capitalist swine, blah-blah-blah warmongering Georgian capitalists, blah-blah-blah.
I've seen this sort of thing before. Nothing and no one will ever convince the likes of Myata that America is not the source of all evil on earth and that anyone, be they Hitler or Stalin or any combination thereof who in some way oppose America, isn't deserving of his complete admiration and defense.

It's all good...because in the end, they pretend to be fair and oh so outraged while living on this side of the fence...not in Palestine or Russia. They suckle on "evil" western teats while burping condemnations in between gulps of milk and honey.