Open warfare in South Ossetia

[Wild Bill]

If you are truly Georgian (Gruzin) than I am sorry for what happened to your country... No matter whose fault it was, the people always suffer... I hope your relatives are fine.

I am also originally from a republic that was split into multiple parts - Moldova. We had a small-scale civil war, I hope that doesn't happen again.

I do believe that in this argument you're wasting your time. The popular opinion of the Russian bear in western countries is just too firmly entrenched to ever be changed. It is based on the actions of the USSR, on sympathy for the conquered Baltic nations and on innumerable Hollywood movies. You can argue if the opinion is accurate but it doesn't matter. It is what it is.

Russia seems singularly inept at its propaganda attempts to change this perception. I'm starting to wonder if it is part and parcel of the Slavic character. I first began to pay attention to this back during the NATO bombing of Kosovo. The news was full of Bosnian civilians in front of CNN cameras. They appeared frightened and cried out how oppressed they were by the Serb forces, desperate to get UN help.

Whenever I saw footage of Serbian civilians, they seemed to be shouting "We too are oppressed! And we will rise up and destroy our oppressors!"

Now both sides in that conflict no doubt committed similar atrocities against each other during that terrible civil war. Still, in the battle for world opinion the Serbs had clearly lost. No one feels pity for a warrior, only for who appear to be helpless victims.

Russia appears to be reverting to its old character. It ties its sense of self-pride to its ability to use force. This can of course be very effective, as long as it doesn't trigger a war bigger than Russia intended to deal with.

The downside is that once Russia starts down this path, it will never get allies and cooperation on a volunteer basis. It will ALWAYS have to use force!

And free nations will never again trust Russia. She can use all the diplomats and propagandists she wants to justify whatever she does but it won't matter. The average western citizen still remembers East Germany, Solidarnosc and Joe Stalin as the underpinnings of modern Russia. When you have a bad rep a thousand positive deeds are forgotten in the face of one negative.

Russia has gotten what it wanted in Georgia. She should pay attention to the training it has given her. She will get little or nothing on the world stage again from negotiation. Her swords will be her only useful tools for a long time to come.

[MMT]

And which facts do you suggest we check? "Facts" provided by you?

How about the real facts?

...

I don’t think the World realizes that the way you raise your youth is scary and maybe even scarier than the way you act in Georgia.

As for sentimental posts about poor South Ossetians. Do you think Russians killed less than 2000 people in Georgia? Do you realize that people get kidnapped, raped, burned alive in Georgia right now as we post in this forum? There is no good reason for Russians to stay in Georgia right now. They just stay there to steal more, destroy more and kill (or let Ossetians kill) more Georgians to punish and scare them. So, talk about interests, land, power, pipeline but dont you dare talk about lost Ossetian lives.

Dear Georgian,

Did you learn a view on war in Georgia by "other" Russians? http://vdesyatku.com/eng/

[PoliticalCitizen]

I do believe that in this argument you're wasting your time. The popular opinion of the Russian bear in western countries is just too firmly entrenched to ever be changed. It is based on the actions of the USSR, on sympathy for the conquered Baltic nations and on innumerable Hollywood movies. You can argue if the opinion is accurate but it doesn't matter. It is what it is.

Russia seems singularly inept at its propaganda attempts to change this perception. I'm starting to wonder if it is part and parcel of the Slavic character. I first began to pay attention to this back during the NATO bombing of Kosovo. The news was full of Bosnian civilians in front of CNN cameras. They appeared frightened and cried out how oppressed they were by the Serb forces, desperate to get UN help.

Whenever I saw footage of Serbian civilians, they seemed to be shouting "We too are oppressed! And we will rise up and destroy our oppressors!"

Now both sides in that conflict no doubt committed similar atrocities against each other during that terrible civil war. Still, in the battle for world opinion the Serbs had clearly lost. No one feels pity for a warrior, only for who appear to be helpless victims.

Russia appears to be reverting to its old character. It ties its sense of self-pride to its ability to use force. This can of course be very effective, as long as it doesn't trigger a war bigger than Russia intended to deal with.

The downside is that once Russia starts down this path, it will never get allies and cooperation on a volunteer basis. It will ALWAYS have to use force!

And free nations will never again trust Russia. She can use all the diplomats and propagandists she wants to justify whatever she does but it won't matter. The average western citizen still remembers East Germany, Solidarnosc and Joe Stalin as the underpinnings of modern Russia. When you have a bad rep a thousand positive deeds are forgotten in the face of one negative.

Russia has gotten what it wanted in Georgia. She should pay attention to the training it has given her. She will get little or nothing on the world stage again from negotiation. Her swords will be her only useful tools for a long time to come.

I appreciate you sharing your point of view on my posts and on Russia in general. I am pretty sure that your words reflect the general position of North America towards Russia.

I don't believe I'm wasting my time - I'm trying to give an alternative view on things to my fellow Canadians and US members of the board.

BTW, since you mentioned Slavic nations - Bosnians, Poles and Ukrainians are Slav too. Some of them love to play victims...

I sincerely hope Russia will not use force in its relations with Ukraine or any other former USSR republics. Moldova also has a Russian-speaking unrecognized breakaway region of Transdniestria that has enjoyed a de-facto independence. I hope their struggle for independence doesn't lead to confrontation or military actions.

[Kaisa]

If you are truly Georgian (Gruzin) than I am sorry for what happened to your country... No matter whose fault it was, the people always suffer... I hope your relatives are fine.

I am also originally from a republic that was split into multiple parts - Moldova. We had a small-scale civil war, I hope that doesn't happen again.

Why would I pretend that I am gruzin (actually gruzinka)?

I dont think anybody on this board feels as terrible as I do now, but I dont want to concentrate on feelings. I understand that mother of a Russian who died in this war is devastated too and I know what she must be going through, even though his Vania came to Georgia to kill my Vano and take away that does not belong to him.

There are many things that could have been done to handle this situation better. Everyone made mistakes. But the most important thing is that the war could not have been avoided no matter how smart Saakashvili acted. It is easy to point fingers and blame him, everyone was so happy with the status quo. So what Georgians were dying because of Russian/Ossetian provocations, who cares, only few have heard about that anyways. At least nobody was talking about III world or cold war. However you need to understand one thing: Russians were not happy with the status quo, Georgia was still controlling the pipelilne (and it is not only about pipeline either) and Russians wanted to change things. And when you have a powerful country run by bunch of KGB mentality people who are absolutely shameless and want to invade a neighbour country, they do it no matter what.

[Kaisa]

Dear Georgian,

Did you learn a view on war in Georgia by "other" Russians? http://vdesyatku.com/eng/

See, I dont need Russians to tell me about Georgia. I studied Soviet history at school, I know how succesful they can be in fabricating facts so I am not suprised that the whole Georgian history is rewritten by Russians.

You question my sources? How come everyone in the world has access to your sources yet they still blame you.

[Kaisa]

I appreciate you sharing your point of view on my posts and on Russia in general. I am pretty sure that your words reflect the general position of North America towards Russia.

I don't believe I'm wasting my time - I'm trying to give an alternative view on things to my fellow Canadians and US members of the board.

He is right, he is not wasting his time. If Georgians are so slow in delivering real facts why shouldn't Russians take advantage of their sloppiness and try to win some gullible people's support?

North America is so "unfair" to his motherland but he still lives in North America. They hate Georgians but still want Georgia to be a part of Russia. So typical..

[MMT]

See, I dont need Russians to tell me about Georgia. I studied Soviet history at school, I know how succesful they can be in fabricating facts so I am not suprised that the whole Georgian history is rewritten by Russians.

You question my sources? How come everyone in the world has access to your sources yet they still blame you.

I didn't question your sources. I simply invited you to read what you willingly rejected.

What fabrications are you talking about? Offer of Russian nationalists to Republic of Georgia for information support in case of next war happened, published in May 2008? You call it fabrication?!

If you did not want to hear anything from your ally just because you labeled it with terrible for you word "Russian", then I rest my case.

With your help or without, I think those guys in Russia, which you deliberately ignore right now, will overthrown the neo-KGB regime.

It would be easier with a little help. But they count on themselves and I wish them best luck.

Actually, I wish the best luck to all of us.

[myata]

Russia's occupation of the airport in Pristina was perhaps one of the first indications that it would not be a team player.

A team player in what, exactly? In self appointed moral superiority (which up to now haven't been backed up by a matching track record - see the facts section).

It is entirely wrong to comapre NATO's invasion fo Afghanistan to defeat the Taliban regime or the US coalition to invade Iraq to eliminate Saddam's regime and what we are now witnessing in Georgia.

Why exactly is it "entirely wrong"? Because you say so? Or on some rational, factual grounds? West barges into "sovereign" countries on the flimsiest of pretexts (e.g Iraq). Even in Kosovo, nothing like massive military attack on a civilian city has happened, yet West's justfication is never questioned.

One more time, I'd like to understand the thought process by which we arrive at these decisions: this, good and justified, that, bad and disproportionate.. Maybe try better this time around. All what came out as comprehensible last time, was references to "50 millions".

And finally, about annexation. I see that you have a valid concern here. It hasn't not happen yet, so it may be somewhat premature to speculate about "annexation". But, the concern is real, no denying that. So, two wars in less than two decades... What should everybody do about it?

Fortunately, we have the example of Canada. Free and democratic will of people should be respected... (I have to reemphasize - to avoid any potential confusion - the stress on free and democratic, as a precondition to any consideration). But assuming that such free and democratic expression of will is made, what do you think should happen?

Edited August 18, 2008 by myata

[PoliticalCitizen]

He is right, he is not wasting his time. If Georgians are so slow in delivering real facts why shouldn't Russians take advantage of their sloppiness and try to win some gullible people's support?

North America is so "unfair" to his motherland but he still lives in North America. They hate Georgians but still want Georgia to be a part of Russia. So typical..

I do sympathize with all the people affected by that war.

But if you live in North America you cannot be blind to Georgia's case being trumpeted all over the news and Russia being painted an aggressor.

It is also hard not to notice that US administration avoids even pronouncing the word "Ossetian" at all costs.

And yes I know Ossetians are no angels and there have been ethnic cleansings on both sides prior to the conflict.

[GostHacked]

PC, if you read the quote, you'd see that Putin believes that Bush fired Dan Rather. In 2005, it is alarming that the president of Russia has so little understanding of how politics is conducted in the West and in America. It is also telling in how Putin exercises power.

At the same time, Bush did not know that there were 3 different factions in Iraq as they invaded. Which shows his lack of knowledge for the Middle East. You mean there are different types of Muslims??

Bush has not changed the US constitution to give himself the power to name State governors (rather than let them be elected locally). Bush has not eliminated the Democratic Party as a functioning institution. Bush has not named his own cronies to senior positions in the Congress and then got himself elected as Senate majority leader. The US government does not own directly or through State enterprises all the major media.

Executive Orders can be implemented that will essentially override the Consitition/bill of rights.

I have heard/read reports of both nature. Russia started it. Georgia started it. Hard to really know exactly what happened. However, you don't place your military in numbers at the border unless you got intelligence that something is gonna go down, or that you plan to strike first to prevent yourself from getting hurt.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Hey check this out - Abkhazia replaced Afganistan as the #1 country in the alphabetical list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries

[Kaisa]

I didn't question your sources. I simply invited you to read what you willingly rejected.

What fabrications are you talking about? Offer of Russian nationalists to Republic of Georgia for information support in case of next war happened, published in May 2008? You call it fabrication?!

If you did not want to hear anything from your ally just because you labeled it with terrible for you word "Russian", then I rest my case.

With your help or without, I think those guys in Russia, which you deliberately ignore right now, will overthrown the neo-KGB regime.

It would be easier with a little help. But they count on themselves and I wish them best luck.

Actually, I wish the best luck to all of us.

I am sorry if I was wrong but I thought you were being sarcastic.

[myata]

Russia seems singularly inept at its propaganda attempts to change this perception. I'm starting to wonder if it is part and parcel of the Slavic character. I first began to pay attention to this back during the NATO bombing of Kosovo. The news was full of Bosnian civilians in front of CNN cameras. They appeared frightened and cried out how oppressed they were by the Serb forces, desperate to get UN help.

The West looks in the mirror of its media and will see what it wants to see. Only few will question the appearances against actual facts. This is so very familiar.

If however, we think that our propaganda "victory" (i.e. take things for what they appear - or, we make them appear, not what they are), actually achieves anything positive, we may be deeply mistaken.

For once, everybody else, but us, obviously, sees our complete, naked and uncovered hypocrisy. We'll use deadly force on a flimsiest of pretexts in a flick, then turn around and blame others for the same. We're also extremely good at whitewashing, and looking the other way when our buddy's doing something untoward. That lesson has not been lost on anybody, just check the world forums.

Which could a fertile ground for suspicions and mistrust for a long time to come. The hope for a consistent set of international security and justice standards may be a thing of the past. Everybody who can, will do what they want, and find a way to justify it. And to continue to be able to do that, they'll have to invest very heavily, into, well, continuation of their capabilities. Everybody, prepare to shell in for a full blown missile defence program. In at least three variants, and around the world.

Which wouldn't be a good climate at all to tackle the global challenges we're all going to face in the near future; such as the depletion of the environment resources; climate change; poverty; over production of arms and military equipment; and if we won't find the ways to rebuild trust and cooperate on these issues, it would be bad for everybody. Not just them, Russians.

Russia has gotten what it wanted in Georgia. She should pay attention to the training it has given her. She will get little or nothing on the world stage again from negotiation. Her swords will be her only useful tools for a long time to come.

I like that emotional picture: little Georgia wanted her (even littlier, so to say) prize so badly, it did something ugly; the grumpy neighbour wasn't impressed and spanked her; now the daddy and the buddies are up in arms shouting and calling names. I wouldn't overdramatise the situation; happens all the time. Granted, it's a bit odd that, being a great lecturer of peace and justice, the daddy wouldn't restrain the kid playing with dangerous stuff near the neighbours' yard, but even that isn't uncommon. S... happens, the life goes on.

Edited August 18, 2008 by myata

[Alta4ever]

Except the Czech and Slovak did not try exterminating the German population.

There is no independantly verified reports of this, just what putin and his media have told us.

[Kaisa]

I do sympathize with all the people affected by that war.

But if you live in North America you cannot be blind to Georgia's case being trumpeted all over the news and Russia being painted an aggressor.

It is also hard not to notice that US administration avoids even pronouncing the word "Ossetian" at all costs.

And yes I know Ossetians are no angels and there have been ethnic cleansings on both sides prior to the conflict.

Do you mean that they need to side with you even though you are wrong?

So, there were "ethnic cleansing" on both sides not a genocide conducted by Georgia?

Can I ask you few questions?

1. Do you think "South Ossetia" is a Georgian land?

Just to help you here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

"The Ossetians are originally descendants of the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe. They became Christians during the early Middle Ages, under Georgian and Byzantine influences. Under Mongol rule, they were pushed out of their medieval homeland south of the Don River in present-day Russia and part migrated towards and over the Caucasus mountains, to Georgia."

2. Did Georgians live in "South Ossetia" prior to 1991 war? Did they become refuges in their own country? Did they have right to decide if they wanted to stay with Georgia?

3. Who did Georgia (population around 4million) fight in 90th? "Ossetia" (population around 70 thousand) or Russia?

4. Do you think that the interested party had right to be a peacekeeper in the region? Do you think Russia was a successful peacekeeper and handled whole passport issue honestly?

5. Do you think there is a chance that Russians/Ossetians were proviking Georgians?

6. If you were a Georgian president who does not want to give up a Georgian land and whose people are constantly attacked and killed by separatists what would you do to protect them?

7. Why do you think Russian army is still in Georgia?

Thank you.

[jbg]

But if you live in North America you cannot be blind to Georgia's case being trumpeted all over the news and Russia being painted an aggressor.

Yes. Seems hauntingly similar to Germany's seizure of the Ruhr Valley and militarization of the Rhineland in 1936.

[August1991]

Fortunately, we have the example of Canada. Free and democratic will of people should be respected... (I have to reemphasize - to avoid any potential confusion - the stress on free and democratic, as a precondition to any consideration). But assuming that such free and democratic expression of will is made, what do you think should happen?

We do have the example of Canada. And compare it to Poland's history.

Canada lives alongside a so-called "superpower". Has our history been comparable to Poland's? Where is the Canadian Treblinka?

Myata, you are a naive Canadian. You have no understanding of how good America (your neighbour) is and how terrible the rest of the world can be.

My argument is that you have come to Canada and get an opportunity at a better life than that craphole you came out of, then you throw it back in our face. We have fought crapholes militarily and economically like the USSR for this lifestyle. God help us if we lost the cold war, I sure don't want to be calling anyone comrade. The US attacking everyone is an investment on keeping our lifestyle preserved, and they are doing a good job at it. Freedom isn't cheap.

My problem is someone coming here and enjoying all the benefits of the lifestyle and not knowing how we achieved it. You come here and spout how evil Canada and the US are, yet you are living in Canada and enjoying a lifestyle that some in Russia would love to enjoy. The US and Canada is only evil when it's convenient for you, once again you are a hypocrite. If you were living in Russia and posting from there, your argument would be taken much more seriously.

Blueblood, your post is honest and right. We Canadians have fought for a better world.

At the same time, I think someone from abroad should be able to come, live among us and criticize what we do. I prefer an open society. The world does not lack for children; it lacks for educated children.

----

Gawd, what a thread hijack.

[Kaisa]

I like that emotional picture: little Georgia wanted her (even littlier, so to say) prize so badly, it did something ugly; the grumpy neighbour wasn't impressed and spanked her; now the daddy and the buddies are up in arms shouting and calling names. I wouldn't overdramatise the situation; happens all the time. Granted, it's a bit odd that, being a great lecturer of peace and justice, the daddy wouldn't restrain the kid playing with dangerous stuff near the neighbours' yard, but even that isn't uncommon. S... happens, the life goes on.

Have you heard this joke?

A war veteran is telling to his kid: Kolya, it was terrible, Nazis caught us, they raped half of division and killed the other half.

- What did they do to you, pa?

- They killed me, son.

When I listen to some Russians talk about this war, I wonder which one does not exist - their logic or moral values.

[blueblood]

We do have the example of Canada. And compare it to Poland's history.

Canada lives alongside a so-called "superpower". Has our history been comparable to Poland's? Where is the Canadian Treblinka?

Myata, you are a naive Canadian. You have no understanding of how good America (your neighbour) is and how terrible the rest of the world can be.

Blueblood, your post is honest and right. We Canadians have fought for a better world.

At the same time, I think someone from abroad should be able to come, live among us and criticize what we do. I prefer an open society. The world does not lack for children; it lacks for educated children.

----

Gawd, what a thread hijack.

He is allowed to criticize Canada, no argument there. I am allowed however to call bullshit and paint a picture of said person being a hypocrite. If this country is so evil, said person has the right to leave. I'm suggesting that with the rights we enjoy, also comes responsibilities. Too bad some people need an education on that.

[DogOnPorch]

He is allowed to criticize Canada, no argument there. I am allowed however to call bullshit and paint a picture of said person being a hypocrite. If this country is so evil, said person has the right to leave. I'm suggesting that with the rights we enjoy, also comes responsibilities. Too bad some people need an education on that.

Well said, blueblood...and Aristotle agrees with you.

----------------------------------------------

To take no part in the running of the community's affairs is to be either a beast or a god!

---Aristotle

[PoliticalCitizen]

Do you mean that they need to side with you even though you are wrong?

As you have probably noticed almost noone on this board sides with me.

This doesn't prevent me from expressing my compassion to the victims of war.

So, there were "ethnic cleansing" on both sides not a genocide conducted by Georgia?

Ethnic cleansing was happening on all sides starting with the early 1990s: Ossetians got rid of Georgians in their region, Abkhazians got rid of Georgians in their region and Georgia got rid of both on the rest of its territory. Sadly, these people were either forced to leave or killed...

But when I said "Genocide" I meant the onslaught of Georgian military on Tshinval.

Can I ask you few questions?

1. Do you think "South Ossetia" is a Georgian land?

Just to help you here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

"The Ossetians are originally descendants of the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe. They became Christians during the early Middle Ages, under Georgian and Byzantine influences. Under Mongol rule, they were pushed out of their medieval homeland south of the Don River in present-day Russia and part migrated towards and over the Caucasus mountains, to Georgia."

I'm pretty sure it was Georgian land... just like Kosovo was Serbian... Krimea was Russian... New Orleans was French...

2. Did Georgians live in "South Ossetia" prior to 1991 war? Did they become refuges in their own country? Did they have right to decide if they wanted to stay with Georgia?

See above... atrocities happened on both sides... to the time of the start of the conflict the "cleansing" was complete on all sides...

Did the Serbs in Kosovo have a right to say which country they want to be a part of?

What about the Russians in Krimea?

What about the Kurds? The poor guys don't even have a country... their land is split between Turkey, Iraq and Iran and they are hated in all 3... very sad...

3. Who did Georgia (population around 4million) fight in 90th? "Ossetia" (population around 70 thousand) or Russia?

Both. My question to you is why does a country so small (4.5 million) have such a big and powerful army?

Who were Georgians planning to fight? Russia? Or Ossetia and Abkhazia?

4. Do you think that the interested party had right to be a peacekeeper in the region? Do you think Russia was a successful peacekeeper and handled whole passport issue honestly?

I make no illusions about this: any country will first and foremost protect its interests.

Maybe in part it was supposed to help South Ossetians move to North Ossetia (which many did).

5. Do you think there is a chance that Russians/Ossetians were proviking Georgians?

I'm pretty sure there were plenty of provocations on both sides.

6. If you were a Georgian president who does not want to give up a Georgian land and whose people are constantly attacked and killed by separatists what would you do to protect them?

I know what I definitely woul NOT do - try to exterminate the separatists (for human reasons), especially backed by Russia (for self-preservation interests). But unfortunately Saakashvili may have gotten the impression Bush will send troops to protect Georgia... and I guess the question of slaughtering the South Ossetians was not against the principles of anyone involved in preparing and executing the attack...

7. Why do you think Russian army is still in Georgia?

I believe part of the Russian agenda was destroying the Georgian military. Since the Georgian army fled, saving their lives (which is a good thing) Russians are trying to find and destroy any military bases and hardware they can find to at least somehow satisfy the hard-liners in Moscow. They are certainly not in a rush to leave...

Edited August 19, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

[PoliticalCitizen]

Have you heard this joke?

A war veteran is telling to his kid: Kolya, it was terrible, Nazis caught us, they raped half of division and killed the other half.

- What did they do to you, pa?

- They killed me, son.

When I listen to some Russians talk about this war, I wonder which one does not exist - their logic or moral values.

Please, you don't want to get me started with Russian jokes about Georgians...

As I'm sure you very well know they are FAR from flattering...

[PoliticalCitizen]

Yes. Seems hauntingly similar to Germany's seizure of the Ruhr Valley and militarization of the Rhineland in 1936.

Russia does not seek to annex South Ossetia or Abkhazia...

Unlike Kosovo, they plan to follow the international laws and agreements in these regions self-determination cause.

[August1991]

Russia does not seek to annex South Ossetia or Abkhazia...

You may be right about South Ossetia but Abkhzaia and the Black Sea coast are another story.

Then again, if Russia wants Abkhazia, let them have it...

Edited August 19, 2008 by August1991

[PoliticalCitizen]

You may be right about South Ossetia but Abkhzaia and the Black Sea coast are another story.

Then again, if Russia wants Abkhazia, let them have it...

Actually a Russian economical analysis has shown that the opposite may be true:

South Ossetia cannot be self-sufficient as a state and may opt for joining North Ossetia within Russian Federation.

Abkhazia, on the other hand, has been self-sufficient for a while and will most likely opt to become an independent country.

Edited August 19, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen