Afghanistan

[jdobbin]

It seems it is Hillier who nixed the helicopters and CF-18s.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080106/...an_cda_aircraft

The Canadian military initially planned for a much wider involvement in the Afghan war than what it delivered in Kandahar, newly released documents show.

As a battle group of 2,200 soldiers was preparing to face the Taliban two years ago, the air force drew up plans in late 2005 to deploy eight CH-146 Griffon helicopters, specially modified as attack aircraft, and a fleet of CF-18 fighter-bombers.

The proposals were eventually set aside, despite NATO's plea for more aircraft, specifically transport and attack helicopters.

The Griffons and jetfighters were intended to give Canada's troops their own hard-hitting air power, instead of relying on other allied nations, such as the United States and Britain.

Canada eventually chose to send C-130 Hercules transports, which drop supplies to far-flung desert bases.

The country's top military commander said he asked the air force to draw up the contingency plans, but ultimately decided against recommending the deployment of the fighters and helicopters.

"The air force believes in this mission," Gen. Rick Hillier, chief of defence staff, said in a recent interview with The Canadian Press.

Edited January 6, 2008 by jdobbin

[bush_cheney2004]

The latest?

Two Canadian soldiers were killed Sunday when their armoured vehicle rolled over in rough terrain near Kandahar City.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

[sharkman]

I take it this afghanistan thread is different than all of the other Afghanistan threads because you once again put 'the latest' in the title plus used a year? Which is, of course, different from all of your other thread titles in which you use the phrase, "the latest". For someone who claims to be a writer, you sure could use an imagination.

I bet this is the part where you use the phrase, "personal attack" again. *yawn*

[M.Dancer]

It seems it is Hillier who nixed the helicopters and CF-18s.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080106/...an_cda_aircraft

Hillier is absolutely correct about the helicopters. It is a sad picture that Canada has no helicopters that can give our troops close air support. Over 25 years ago when I was a miltiaman and we trained with Grizzlies, we stopped carrying the Browning MG. The reason was the Grizzly had a Browning and a .50 HMG. The thing was the grizzly when we trained never went as far as our objectives, so we were always without a medium machine gun. When I asked about that I was told that the Grizzly being a valuable unit was never brought close to danger unless there was close air support, which of course we never had....

Now that is ancient history, the vintage browning is retired and they have a lighter medium to use....but still no close air support of their own.

[Oleg Bach]

Hillier is absolutely correct about the helicopters. It is a sad picture that Canada has no helicopters that can give our troops close air support. Over 25 years ago when I was a miltiaman and we trained with Grizzlies, we stopped carrying the Browning MG. The reason was the Grizzly had a Browning and a .50 HMG. The thing was the grizzly when we trained never went as far as our objectives, so we were always without a medium machine gun. When I asked about that I was told that the Grizzly being a valuable unit was never brought close to danger unless there was close air support, which of course we never had....

Now that is ancient history, the vintage browning is retired and they have a lighter medium to use....but still no close air support of their own.

Hiller is correct about nothing! He spear head race suicide by what is left of the great white anglo saxon breeders..good and strong corn fed rural white Christian boys - every time one is killed by the sport that is Afghanistan - that means that the man will NOT sire children - so in other words - for every white Christian boy needlessly sacraficed in Afgahnistan - that - a thousand in the future will NOT be born - what the hell are you anglos thinking - killing your own young and ensureing that there are less of you in the future! Stupid - have you no vision? You don't see the wise immigrants signing up to die for the blood sport of the rich - that's because they and their fathers have seen it before - it's called corruption and they want no part of dieing for a rich bored idiot that effects policy here and abroad - immigrants are survivors - we on the othe hand eat our young!

[Borg]

Hiller is correct about nothing! He spear head race suicide by what is left of the great white anglo saxon breeders..good and strong corn fed rural white Christian boys - every time one is killed by the sport that is Afghanistan - that means that the man will NOT sire children - so in other words - for every white Christian boy needlessly sacraficed in Afgahnistan - that - a thousand in the future will NOT be born - what the hell are you anglos thinking - killing your own young and ensureing that there are less of you in the future! Stupid - have you no vision? You don't see the wise immigrants signing up to die for the blood sport of the rich - that's because they and their fathers have seen it before - it's called corruption and they want no part of dieing for a rich bored idiot that effects policy here and abroad - immigrants are survivors - we on the othe hand eat our young!

You've already got your kids - why not get in shape and join up - take up one space - save the race from extinction?

You can join until 50 or 55 now. I am sure you could also use those human rights folks to get you on board. And at the same time you could have a regular income!!

Borg

[Army Guy]

Hiller is correct about nothing! He spear head race suicide by what is left of the great white anglo saxon breeders..good and strong corn fed rural white Christian boys - every time one is killed by the sport that is Afghanistan - that means that the man will NOT sire children - so in other words - for every white Christian boy needlessly sacraficed in Afgahnistan - that - a thousand in the future will NOT be born - what the hell are you anglos thinking - killing your own young and ensureing that there are less of you in the future! Stupid - have you no vision? You don't see the wise immigrants signing up to die for the blood sport of the rich - that's because they and their fathers have seen it before - it's called corruption and they want no part of dieing for a rich bored idiot that effects policy here and abroad - immigrants are survivors - we on the othe hand eat our young!

DO you really just make this stuff up as you go, have you checked the last names of those boys killed in combat...apparently not, perhaps you should do a little research before lighting you hair on fire and then jumping on your computer.....and starting one of your rants.

This whole country was built by immigrants, it is also defended by immigrants, both new and old alike. made up of men and women who share the same ideals, that not all of us can sit back and watch the world go by, someone has to stand up and fight for what they belief in, or for a cause that is noble....

But of course you are exericising one of your basic rights, freedom of speach and expression, so enlighten us, the poor, white ,christian ,corn feed, sacraficial lambs....pour out your sources to back up your claims that we are all toys for the rich and famous to play with, to prove to the other rich Muslims that they are in the same class, and have balls of gold...the size of large grape fruit... or maybe just maybe there is no boggie man theories and this is just as it is a bunch of nations trying to help another....

[Topaz]

Why don't we all watch a video about Afghanistan and regroup. www.cbc.ca/the hour/video.php?id=1525

[Muddy]

What balderdash! When I served in Germany ,1960 to 1964,our battalion was mostly WASP. We had two blacks and some Native Indians. Fine soldiers all. Two people were excused Church Parade from my company. A Greek Orthodox and a Jewish Lad. The rest of us either were expected to be Prostestant or Catholic.I was at our regimental mens Christmas dinner this year. The majority of the Lads were visably not WASP descent. I sat with these Lads. Fine chaps who are proud as punch to wear their countrys uniform ,and to my ears not much different to my generation as far as young people are concerned who wear the Queens uniform. They are proud Canadian soldiers and I am as proud of them as I could be. Don`t put down the new Canadians kids. They are loyal and will defend our freedom and country when ordered to,and willingly to boot. Ask our Lads who have been to Afganistan how they feel about their mission. It has been my experience that they believe they are on the side of right and the downtrodden. Their biggest enemy is not the terrorists who hide behind civilian garb ,it is the traitorous news media of the left here at home who are selective in their so called news reporting. I support the troops and their mission. Volunteers all! God bless em!

[Keepitsimple]

Not sure what the intent of this post was. Rick Hillier made a decision. That's what Generals do - every day.

[jdobbin]

Not sure what the intent of this post was. Rick Hillier made a decision. That's what Generals do - every day.

If I recall, when the issue of why Canada didn't have aircraft sent to the area in 2005, some critics said it was a political decision. Until today, I hadn't heard that it was Hillier himself who had nixed the idea.

[jbg]

I take it this afghanistan thread is different than all of the other Afghanistan threads because you once again put 'the latest' in the title plus used a year? Which is, of course, different from all of your other thread titles in which you use the phrase, "the latest". For someone who claims to be a writer, you sure could use an imagination.

I bet this is the part where you use the phrase, "personal attack" again. *yawn*

To paraphrase the Jewish "Four Questions" (Rue would appreciate this), "wherefore is this thread different from all the other threads" (link)?

[Army Guy]

If I recall, when the issue of why Canada didn't have aircraft sent to the area in 2005, some critics said it was a political decision. Until today, I hadn't heard that it was Hillier himself who had nixed the idea.

Hillier nixed the idea or did he advised to have the decission go as it did....Hillier may be the CDS but he still reports to a clear chain of command....The MND and the PM would be the guys that made the final chioce...

[Topaz]

I have a niece who's 20 and she wanted to be a MP in the RCMP but for some reason she could join so she enlisted in the Navy. She got her basic training and was waiting for orders. Well this past week the Air Force called and she has 2 weeks before she shipped over to Afghanistan, which she was told she HAS to do at least ONE tour over there and 5 years in the military. She said she doing ``supply`` for the troops and we all know what can happen with them, even though they will have security, which she may be apart of. She only 5 ft, maybe a 100 lbs and it hard to see her over there doing that and she was so excitied about the big pay cheque. I just hope she comes home to spend it! May the force be with all of those over there!

[M.Dancer]

I have a niece who's 20 and she wanted to be a MP in the RCMP but for some reason she could join so she enlisted in the Navy. She got her basic training and was waiting for orders. Well this past week the Air Force called and she has 2 weeks before she shipped over to Afghanistan, which she was told she HAS to do at least ONE tour over there and 5 years in the military. She said she doing ``supply`` for the troops and we all know what can happen with them, even though they will have security, which she may be apart of. She only 5 ft, maybe a 100 lbs and it hard to see her over there doing that and she was so excitied about the big pay cheque. I just hope she comes home to spend it! May the force be with all of those over there!

What?

Your niece wanted to be an MP in the RCMP? You realize that doesn't make any sense|?

She joined the navy but the air force called? She got her basic training and she was waiting orders?

I really think if you are not making this up, you only heard every 3rd word of the conversation.

[Muddy]

What?

Your niece wanted to be an MP in the RCMP? You realize that doesn't make any sense|?

She joined the navy but the air force called? She got her basic training and she was waiting orders?

I really think if you are not making this up, you only heard every 3rd word of the conversation.

Yes ,that was a very confuseing post! Just so you know your not alone dancer.

Meanwhile ,if she is being tasked over there no matter what branch she is serving in I wish her well. I still don`t believe little girls should be put deliberately into harms way. But then again I come from another era when we used the term, This Mans army!

[Topaz]

What?

Your niece wanted to be an MP in the RCMP? You realize that doesn't make any sense|?

She joined the navy but the air force called? She got her basic training and she was waiting orders?

I really think if you are not making this up, you only heard every 3rd word of the conversation.

She went to college for security and wanted to go into the RCMP's as MP but for some reason she didn't go. So she joined the navy, took basic training and was waiting for a callup which she got last week. I was told that it was the Air Force that had called and I thought the same as you. She DOES know she has to do at least one tour of Afghanistan, which will be supply and has to service 5 years. Maybe if I had said she found this on a the eve of her grandmother funeral, who she was very close to, you would understand more. I DON't make things up. Perhaps the Air Force is flying over there and that's were she got that. Is this any clearer??

[M.Dancer]

She went to college for security and wanted to go into the RCMP's as MP but for some reason she didn't go.

Maybe because the RCMP doesn't have MPs.....

and the rest is confused to. You say she is a new recruit and she has to serve 5 years. I say you don't know what you're talking about. The 1st enlistment is 3 YEARS.

You also say she will be heading off overseas in 2 weeks. I say once again you don't know what you are talking about. If indeed she is going she will be on an orientation course for I believe six weeks just to see if she can hadle the job.

[Muddy]

Maybe because the RCMP doesn't have MPs.....

and the rest is confused to. You say she is a new recruit and she has to serve 5 years. I say you don't know what you're talking about. The 1st enlistment is 3 YEARS.

You also say she will be heading off overseas in 2 weeks. I say once again you don't know what you are talking about. If indeed she is going she will be on an orientation course for I believe six weeks just to see if she can hadle the job.

There you go again ,confusing the issue with facts!

[DogOnPorch]

Canada doesn't need CF-18s in Afghanistan. It would actually be a good idea for our military to get a hold of a few dozen examples of this kind of aircraft (or similar) for light ground attack duties in difficult terrain. Cheaper to maintain than choppers. Oldish...but it'd do well in a war like Afghanistan.

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/ov-10.htm

Here's one doing bird-dog duty for the California Forestry Dept.

-------------------------------------------

Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning.

---Field-Marshal Erwin Rommel

[Topaz]

What?

Your niece wanted to be an MP in the RCMP? You realize that doesn't make any sense|?

She joined the navy but the air force called? She got her basic training and she was waiting orders?

I really think if you are not making this up, you only heard every 3rd word of the conversation.

Last time and then I don't really care what YOU think. I told this forum what was told to me and then you called me a liar?? I find this forum has people who jump to conclusion and call people liars or worse before the person can clarify, end of story.

[M.Dancer]

Last time and then I don't really care what YOU think. I told this forum what was told to me and then you called me a liar?? I find this forum has people who jump to conclusion and call people liars or worse before the person can clarify, end of story.

Actually I gave you the benefit of the doubt, I said you were either fabricating or confused. I will admit a third possibility, that you are confused and fabricating....

I mean, this isn't the first time you have posted some ridiculous nonsense your overheard your toaster saying....

[weaponeer]

Hillier did not nix the idea of sending CF18 & helos to Afghanistan. We only have 79 CF18s, and they are currently undergoing a mid life upgrade, getting new computers, radars etc... The fleet of Cf18 was being upgraded and still having to maintain NORAD alert, there were not enough to send any to Afghanstan. The first upgraded jets will be online this Feb, perhaps then you will see they go.

As for helos, the CF has none to send. The Sea Kings are death traps, the new search & rescue helos are not for combat, and our griffons are not military helos, you cannot send them into a combat zone. The only real option the AF had left were some C130's....

[jdobbin]

Hillier did not nix the idea of sending CF18 & helos to Afghanistan. We only have 79 CF18s, and they are currently undergoing a mid life upgrade, getting new computers, radars etc... The fleet of Cf18 was being upgraded and still having to maintain NORAD alert, there were not enough to send any to Afghanstan. The first upgraded jets will be online this Feb, perhaps then you will see they go.

As for helos, the CF has none to send. The Sea Kings are death traps, the new search & rescue helos are not for combat, and our griffons are not military helos, you cannot send them into a combat zone. The only real option the AF had left were some C130's....

All that might be true but someone was putting together a plan. They drew up the plans at DND. The information was released under the Freedom of Information act. It states that Hillier nixed the idea. It doesn't state the full reasons but one assumes that it might have been a number of the things you mention.

One thing is certain: Back in 2005 and again in 2006, it was suggested that the Liberal or the Tory government had planned to send aircraft and that one or the other decided against it. The article appears to suggest that it was a military decision not to send the aircraft rather than a political one.

[weaponeer]

All that might be true but someone was putting together a plan. They drew up the plans at DND. The information was released under the Freedom of Information act. It states that Hillier nixed the idea. It doesn't state the full reasons but one assumes that it might have been a number of the things you mention.

One thing is certain: Back in 2005 and again in 2006, it was suggested that the Liberal or the Tory government had planned to send aircraft and that one or the other decided against it. The article appears to suggest that it was a military decision not to send the aircraft rather than a political one.

It was a military decision, and given our equipment situation the correct one. Had past governments (Tory & Lib) as well as piss poor military leadership in days gone by, been better, we would not be in this situation. Nice to hear from you jdobb.