Peter F Posted January 28, 2008 Report Posted January 28, 2008 The fact that useless "precautions" take the place of effective ones, such as profiling. Worse, they dilute the public appetite for security since any intelligent person knows these precautions are largely bogus. The 'useless precautions' would have been the cat's ass on September 11, 2001. Such useless precautions would have avoided tens of thousands of deaths. Racial profiling can't accomplish anything but get you moving through the line faster. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Wilber Posted January 28, 2008 Report Posted January 28, 2008 I somehow doubt that Mohamed is going to peacefully and serenely allow his weapons to be seized by airport security. He'll find some other way to accomplish his objective. Making people snake through nonsensical "security" precautions to avoid profiling would be funny if it weren't so tragic. I think you need both. Hijacking almost completely disappeared after screening came in, although it was seen by many as overkill at the time. The phenomena of suicide squads taking over aircraft with the intention of killing all on board is new. It has been nearly seven years since 9/11 and there hasn't been a repeat so you can't really say the more intense screening is nonsensical, although at times it certainly seems that way. I also think there is a certain amount of profiling going on but no one is about to admit to it. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
jbg Posted January 28, 2008 Report Posted January 28, 2008 I think you need both. Hijacking almost completely disappeared after screening came in, although it was seen by many as overkill at the time. The phenomena of suicide squads taking over aircraft with the intention of killing all on board is new. It has been nearly seven years since 9/11 and there hasn't been a repeat so you can't really say the more intense screening is nonsensical, although at times it certainly seems that way. I also think there is a certain amount of profiling going on but no one is about to admit to it.You make a fairly god point. However, I think most of that comes from what happened on United Flight 93 that the passengers crashed into the fields of Pennsylvania. The suicide jockeys realize that the passengers, facing death, would rather die as heros than compliantly. Also, the "screening" that you refer to for a time included a "profile" which flagged passengers buying one way tickets for cash, and included other age and ethnic characteristics. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Army Guy Posted January 28, 2008 Report Posted January 28, 2008 Eyeball: So let me get this straight, we're stuck in a quagmire over there so we can avoid one here? Okay. And you folks are quite certain this is only costing us 2 cents out of every tax dollar? Thats the problem isn't it, you can't get anything straight, you've made up your mind long ago, and refuse to approach this topic with an open mind...and now your bent on converting others to your cause, not sure what that is, i'm not even sure if you know what that is... You discribe Afganistan mission as an awkward situation for you and your cause, but have failed really to say why ? other than you have a problem with the use of your tax dollars....You made it quite clear that your real problem is the Afgan people..... screw them, frigg'in backward hillybillies....you'll use every excuse in the book, It cost to much money....it has cost us to many soldiers.....history shows us it can't be done....They aren't smart enough to run there own country...They are corrupt...There national GDP is based on Drug sales....It is a lost cause..... I'm glad that the Canadian's had'nt thought that way while looking up on vimy ridge, or on the D-day landings, or Korea, or the hundrds of UN and NATO missions we've been on....You really need to remove your head from the sand....and instead of concentrating on the neg, look at the postive things we could accomplish in this nation if we were given half the chance....That chance needs to come from Canadians...they are the only ones that can turn this thing around, they are the only ones with the power to give these people the chance they need at peace, and raising thier kids without war.... And the only thing holding you back is the 2 cents on every dollar....Are you serious...are you that cheap...that you have refuse to give this gift we offer because of 2 cents....I would gladly give you back your share of tax dollars spent in your name, and given to the afgan people ....if you just stop this sobbing about how you've been soooooo inconenienced .... By the way, I still haven't seen any Islamofacists coming up the driveway. I get a couple of JW's from time to time but no sword-wielding maniacs to report yet. More proof that it is working.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted January 28, 2008 Report Posted January 28, 2008 Eyeball: You just can't connect these dots can you? The military quagmire we're in over there is backing up and bubbling up through the sewers under Parliament Hill over here and we're becoming a more divided country as a result. I'd rather we get on with the business of fixing our plumbing and modernizing our own democracy than trying to build one for a society that wouldn't know what to do with it anyway. Back the truck up...Afgan is dividing our country...Afgan is not even on most peoples radar....amounting to a mere 2 or 3 mins of conversation at the dinner table on a good night ...more time is spent finding how little jonnies day at school went....Dividing the country now thats a stretch....i would have thought big issues such as the language issue, Quebec separation, would have been considered dividing issues.... Another excellant and solid reason we should give up in Afgan ("trying to build one for a society that wouldn't know what to do with it anyway.") If we weren't presenting another target for them they'd just go back to fighting amongst themselves. Its not us or them. That's just plain nonsense from the mouth of a frightened little chimp. Yes , your right, we should have appoligized to the Fanatic muslim world for building the twin towers in one of thier flight paths , but who knew....we should have let the whole problem just fade into history when the Taliban said "no you can not have them" and we will defend them if you try and take the away to face justice" 9/11 , saw 23 canadians murdered in a horrific way, would Canadians reacted any different if they had been slain in our streets here in Canada...And how many Canadians have to die before people like you take action...30, 50. 100, 1000, what is your number that will get you up off your ass and take action.... But lets not forget about our niebours losses, some 3000 of it's citizens died that day as well...and yes while we did mobilize and offer any help we could...we Canadians have a very short memory, when the US decided to hand out justice, and was looking for any allieds....we forgot about all our defensive packs that we signed with the US...we forgot that for all these years that we have slashed our defense budget, and had to rely on the US for our defense....we actually had to take some time and think about....(group meeting) we actually had to be goaded into it.... Why because those frightened little chimps you talk about, were people like you eyeball...afraid to take action, afraid to hurt anyones feelings, afraid of becoming a target, afraid that someone might get hurt in bringing them to justice... Sometimes the only way to get justice is thru a big stick...and if you don't want to be part of it, then step aside...but don't critize those that do take action, while you still live under thier protection. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
myata Posted January 28, 2008 Report Posted January 28, 2008 Sorry, there's nothing new here to convince close to 60% of this country's citizens (myself included) that this is a cause worth pursuing. We cannot build their country for other people, we can't dole justice in other people's names and we should not be fighting in other peoples wars. This is however, what the situation starts more and more to look like. Taking one side (the unpleasant and unfriendly one) agianst a puppet government that won't stand on its own if foreign lifeline is cut. Just doesn't appear as a likely winning strategy to me. Moneys will be sunk, lives lost, and in the end it'll all come down to the same: we'll go back home, and they'll live whatever way of life they're used to. Don't get me wrong. Justice should have been done, and the lesson taught. This is simply the wrong way to dole justice and teach lesson. It bleeds us, confuses us, but it reiterates the same old message to those who fight us, and their potential recruits: that we came to control, to change their way of life, to set things up the way we want them. It won't work. What could have worked is a tough lesson from outside, a la Serbia. Only for a while though, and possibly, not very long while, if the policy of meddling and interference in the other people's affairs, as opposed to open and honest engagement, continues. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
jbg Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 Don't get me wrong. Justice should have been done, and the lesson taught. This is simply the wrong way to dole justice and teach lesson. It bleeds us, confuses us, but it reiterates the same old message to those who fight us, and their potential recruits: that we came to control, to change their way of life, to set things up the way we want them. It won't work.On September 11, 2001 countless children lost parents for no good reason. Marriages were sundered. The attack was of almost unparelled randomness and brutality.Justice could well have consisted in turning the entire Islamic world into a flattened parking lot. The West, led by the GWB you detest so much tried to temper justice with mercy. Do you consider that wrong? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
capricorn Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 Justice could well have consisted in turning the entire Islamic world into a flattened parking lot. The West, led by the GWB you detest so much tried to temper justice with mercy. Do you consider that wrong? In hindsight, the parking lot could have been built and the whole episode would be nothing than a vague memory in the minds of those who now try so hard to render judgment. But as you say jbg, mercy was extended but it is unrecognized and unacknowledged by those who are hell bent on assigning culpability. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
Muddy Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 If we had not taken the fight to the foe after 9/11,I truely believe North America would have been attacked again and agian. Binny and his gang promised Canada we were a target. Bin Ladin for all his warts likes to keep his promises. If we show the weakness and faint of heart that the Islamic terrorists believe we really are the fight will be brought to us. God keep our soldiers victorious over this elusive foe who shows no mercy or follows no rules of war and who wears no uniform. Better there than here. Quote
jbg Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 If we had not taken the fight to the foe after 9/11,I truely believe North America would have been attacked again and again.Exhibits (during Clinton adminstration):WTC I, February 26, 1993; Khobar Towers, 1995 or 1996; Kenya, Tanzania US Embassies, July 1998 USS Cole, 2000 If Carter had gotten the opportunityy by being re-elected the Iran embassy attack would have created similar "instant replays". Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Army Guy Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 (edited) myata: Sorry, there's nothing new here to convince close to 60% of this country's citizens (myself included) that this is a cause worth pursuing. Would you agree that our government and our media have done a poor job on keeping our country informed about this mission ? If so are you and those 60% willing to punsh the Avg Afganis for those actions, because ultimately those are the very people that will be affected by that very decision...( to withdrawal) It's not going to be our present government, nor will it be our media it will be the Afgan people... I'd like to add to that list above, the Avg Canadian, most have already been polled and have said that thier government and media do a piss poor job relaying info Canadians need to make informed decissions, and yet in todays world Canadians really have no excuse for not searching for thier info else where....And this is not happening....in most cases... We cannot build their country for other people, we can't dole justice in other people's names and we should not be fighting in other peoples wars. We have been doing exactly that for years, under UN and NATO, just open your mind and see for yourself. This is however, what the situation starts more and more to look like. Taking one side (the unpleasant and unfriendly one) agianst a puppet government that won't stand on its own if foreign lifeline is cut. Nothing has changed since the beginning, we destroyed the Taliban regime and in it's place the AFGANIS people elected thier own government....not one installed by NATO, or any other nation...but rather elected by the Afganis people.... Will it stand on it's own, yes it will, just not yet, but you already know this fact, NATO is working around the clock to build a nation that will stand on it's own, but they and the Afganis need time...they need support...they need our assistance... Moneys will be sunk, lives lost, and in the end it'll all come down to the same: we'll go back home, and they'll live whatever way of life they're used to. Yes monies, will be sunk, 2 cents of everyone of your tax dollars, you do the math, thats less than most Canadians give in chartiable donations each year.... As for the lives, those will be paid by our military, RCMP, And diplomatic corps by volunteers each one of them, the same volunteers that continue to go over and over, again, voluteers that are very much aware of the dangers and risk involved, and yet continue to do thier part....Because they are aware of the importance of this gift our nation is offering the afgan people....a fact that is lost on most Canadians... As a soldier with 2 tours in afgan, i think i'm holding my end of the bargin up, All i'm asking is you and each Canadian is to approach this problem with an open mind, stop laying blame, or fault and do what is right.... It's sort of an old poll but it gives us all a prespective from the Afganis people.... Afganis poll Edited January 29, 2008 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 Another good read "The world according to Hillier" and it's implications towards Afgan. Hilliers comment> Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Keepitsimple Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 (edited) Another good read "The world according to Hillier" and it's implications towards Afgan.Hilliers comment> Army Guy - thanks - once again, the voice of reason - at least to me. Edited January 29, 2008 by Keepitsimple Quote Back to Basics
jbg Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 Another good read "The world according to Hillier" and it's implications towards Afgan.Hilliers comment> Excellent read for those who believe that Israel should "negotiate" with the "Palestinians". Relevant excerpt: "In Prijedor, Bosnia (where in 2000 he took command of NATO's Multinational Division (Southwest) in Bosnia-Herzegovina), we had a chief of public security, a mayor and a chief of police. And they were the equivalent of having Paul Bernardo as your mayor, Clifford Olson as your chief of public security and Karla Homolka as your chief of police. How can you deal with people like that in a dialogue and get them to actually help the people they're responsible for -- as opposed to abusing, torturing and in many cases, killing them?"Some Canadians don't understand the fact you can't just go and talk to people in Southern Afghanistan and say 'OK, now put your guns down and let's all come to an agreement that we're actually going to build some schools and we're actually going to have some boys and girls go to school and we're actually going to choose who's going to lead us here.' "People start shooting and killing folks and children, women, older people or men --they don't care -- and at some point in time, you're just going to have to say 'We're not going to accept this'." Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
M.Dancer Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 Thoughts from the Secretary General of the UN. Being in Afghanistan is dangerous, not being in Afghanistan is more dangerousBAN KI-MOON Special to Globe and Mail Update January 24, 2008 at 1:28 AM EST Afghanistan is a potent symbol of the costs inherent in abandoning nations to the lawless forces of anarchy. That alone justifies international efforts to help rebuild the country. Lest there be any doubt, remember Sept. 11, 2001, and its worldwide reverberations. We learned then how a country, shorn of its civic institutions, becomes a vacuum to be filled by criminals and opportunists. In its chaos and poverty, Afghanistan became a home base for terrorism. Must we learn that lesson all over again? The past six years have seen a massive international partnership to rebuild Afghanistan's state institutions. A modern constitution was adopted after widespread popular consultations. Presidential and parliamentary elections were held. Three million refugees returned from decades of exile. Clearly, a large majority of the population supports the international community's efforts on Afghans' behalf. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...fghanistan/home Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 Bin Ladin for all his warts likes to keep his promises. Bin Laden also said al-Qaida would stop attacking Americans if America stops supporting dictatorships in their region. Promise Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 You discribe Afganistan mission as an awkward situation for you and your cause, but have failed really to say why ? Because it's in vain, the mission is based on false premises that change with each shift in the political wind. The reasons for fighting have nothing to do with the fights root causes. We're not in a awkward situation, we're in harm's way. We should be taking Jack Layton's advice and negotiating the truce that Bin Laden is offering. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 Would you agree that our government and our media have done a poor job on keeping our country informed about this mission ? Our government has done everything it can to avoid addressing the root causes of the war this mission was dispatched to. Thankfully we still have a media that hasn't. Why We Fight Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Topaz Posted January 29, 2008 Report Posted January 29, 2008 Army guy, would you like the next time, if there is one, to go to Afghanistan and do rebuilding and really help the PEOPLE instead of being in a search and capture/kill mode"? IF this is a Holy war, there are 1 billion people in the Middle-East and the ONLY way one could defeat that many people is with a nuclear bomb and I hope to God that that doesn't happen. You kill one and another show up in there place. I have read what some of those people say. They know their government is corrupt, they want Karazi gone if he doesn`t clean up the war lords within his government. Point is can he or will he? The US is 9 Trillion $$ in debt and they can not keep fighting and they will end up like Russia broke and they are getting closer of being there. I think when the vote comes the 3 parties will vote to end combat for Canada by 2009 but we will still be there but not in the south. Quote
Muddy Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 A couple of points, do you really believe that Bin Ladin and his happy gang can be negotiated with? By whom? Jack Layton perhaps? Can the Taliban be negotiated with? Again ,by whom? Jack Layton or maybe Sven Robinson perhaps? Who or what country do Al Quida and or the Taliban represent? If not Layton ,then how about the UN? Wait a minute it was the UN that requested NATO to intervene in Afganistan in the first place! Gee ,this is getting tougher! We are not fighting a foreign government here. These are Islamic terrorists. A religious based extremist that chop off peoples heads instead of taking prisoners. Gosh you would think those guys had never heard of the Geneva conventions! I am still involved with my Regimental family. The guys to a man who have been to Afganistan from my regiment really believe from their experience this is a good fight and they are making a difference to the lives of Afgani`s. You can`t build a bridge,build a school or hospital without a guy with a rifle protecting the builder from this ruthless enemy. God be with our soldiers,they need to know we are behind them. Quote
jbg Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 We should be taking Jack Layton's advice and negotiating the truce that Bin Laden is offering.Eyeball, I've always appreciated your sense of humor. Will Bin Ladin come to Washington or Ottawa to negotiate? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
myata Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 Another good read "The world according to Hillier" and it's implications towards Afgan. OK, I read it. And no, no eye openers. We're in the Afganistan for the wrong reason. Basically the same old reason we (in a more general sense) went to India, Africa and all the other places. Presuming that we're uber folks who can teach (and make) others stabilize, democratize, etc, i.e. live their lives as they should. There's all kind of do good propaganda that can be spun around that as it was spun every single time it happened. British were bringing elightement, Russians equality and communism, now we're building them a democracy. All naive illusions at best, all destined for a failure. Nothing new there. We're there for the wrong reason. Taleban is not synonimous with Al Qaeda. While they refused to extradite those responsible in 9/11, there's no evidence that they were involved. They were also one stable local government Afghanis have known in many years. But it wasn't to our liking. So, we invaded, as we do when the government isn't to our liking, not because we were defending ourselves from imminent threat. For that, there were other, less expensive and more efficient, means. We came to democratize. To rebuild, reengineer their society. Because someone somewhere (guess) had this wonderfun idea of redesigning the world according to their brilliant plans. Personally I think that as all ideas of the kind its enormous waste of resources and lives and no, doesn't worth my 2 cents. Assistance, in an open and honest relationship is one thing; installing one's way of life under a pretense of helping, is something completely different. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
jbg Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 OK, I read it. And no, no eye openers. We're in the Afganistan for the wrong reason.We're in there so they can't use a failed state as a launchpad for yet another attack. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Army Guy Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) Bin Laden also said al-Qaida would stop attacking Americans if America stops supporting dictatorships in their region. Even your smarter than that Eyeball, Bin Laden wants The US out of the region entirely, all of her troops , all of her interests, not just the US but everything attached to our western culture....to further his cause which is to create a perfect islamic paridise....we had a brief look at that paridise in Afganistan... Currently the west, mostly the US presence in the area is the only thing from keeping it from exploding or imploding ....How long do you actually think the Nation of Israel would last if the US pulled out and refused to get involved in the area.... He wants to Rebuild Iraq, and Afganistan....Into what a massive training camp for all of his cronies....do you honestly think he his going to stop there....To rebuild something in the image of Afganistan....under taliban rule...is that what you want another repressive nation or in this case a whole region of reprssive nations... With what ? and your sadly mistaken if you think that the average Afganis wants to return those good old days... Why is he offering a truce in the first place, it was him that called for a holy war....Because his side is lossing.... Because it's in vain, the mission is based on false premises that change with each shift in the political wind. The reasons for fighting have nothing to do with the fights root causes. We're not in a awkward situation, we're in harm's way. Last time i checked the only ones in harms way were those in Afgan....Can anyone tell me of one sucessful terrorist attack in Canada that has ties with Bin Laden and his merry bandits....(and all that was heard is the sounds of crickets)... Are you afraid of going to the mall, flying, traveling being attacked in your sleep....then how are you in harms way.... But then again maybe we've just been lucky to date....maybe our luck will change....and if or when they do and Canadian blood has been split then what... do we cry Uncle....we give up...we are sorry we went to afgan....or do we hunt those bastards down and gut them like fish....do we crash a 747 packed with explosives into one of thier mosques on a holy day... Edited January 30, 2008 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 Topaz: Army guy, would you like the next time, if there is one, to go to Afghanistan and do rebuilding and really help the PEOPLE instead of being in a search and capture/kill mode"? I would love to trade in my wpns for a toolbelt and a truck full of lumber, in fact i think we all would...I pray for peace in that region every.... single..... night...But while i'm doing that some brain washed scumbag is praying to his god, praying for a way to allow him to carry out his murderous ways, preying on the weak, so he will be able to keep his repressive way of life.... Perhaps i've become tainted in my views, as i've seen to much of thier handy work....which is not limited to the Afganis men, but includes thier women and children.... There is only one way to deal with those capable of such acts such crimes and that is thru force....Someone has to stand up for these people....in todays world Superman, and buddies exist only on western movie screens....in the real world reality is cruel and and unforgiving....and unless good men are willing to step up and draw the line in the sand, then we will soon be over run with these scumbags...And it just so happens Canada is full of good men and women.... They know their government is corrupt, they want Karazi gone if he doesn`t clean up the war lords within his government. Point is can he or will he? Elections are coming soon, and the Afganis people will speak thru thier vote, perhaps the new government will be an approvement, but give credit when credit is do , he has started with nothing, and is doing the best he can...lets not expect miricles but rather steady progress.... I think when the vote comes the 3 parties will vote to end combat for Canada by 2009 but we will still be there but not in the south. I think that would be a grave mistake, one for our nation, in regards to how the main allieds look at us as a partner, How they see us as a G-8 nation that is not pulling it's load....How the other nations in need will look at us for assistance, and there is the NATO aspect of it as well our pulling out will only put presure on the brits and US forces already there...it will also but presure on the cracks already developed in the NATO alliance.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
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