Army Guy

Are you saying with 100% certainty that this conflict can not be won because of the Russian invasion or Vietnam, I'm sure i could find a couple of examples in history that would prove that wrong....but then again none would be related to the present day Afghan conflict.

No, William i'm not again'st free speech, what i.m against is you and others doing on the backs of our fallen, want to make a point by all means do so....but the heading for this post disrespects those who have given their lives in something they believed in ... something you have said was a pointless waste...and yet they where the ones that made that sacrifice based on what they believed. How so, what do they mean to you as a Canadian William, your knowledge on the topic seems limited, and your comments full of emotion based on incomplete facts. I think i know how the forum works by now. I asked the question because your reply had topaz remarks not mine.... As i have said before William want to comment then post away, i however think it is inappropriate to do so on the backs of our fallen, when they clearly do not share your points or values...perhaps you can not express or articulate your piont without doing so....

Not sure if your addressing me or not william.

How so, when they are part of the same issue, without the War on terror there would be no War in Afghanistan. perhaps your suggesting something else. they are linked with the war in Afghan being one of it's chapters. Not true, lets not forget that these soldiers volunteered,it was them who stood up and said i think i got what it takes to make a difference and the Afghan mission is a noble cause..... and to further make a point these soldiers were reserve soldiers,they where not called up to active duty, but rather stood up and placed their name on a waiting list to serve their country....that alone has got to say something, about the character of these young men, so lets not dismiss what they are saying because they where just doing what they were told, but rather lets listen to what they have to say because they've earned that merit....atleast i think so.... And while these soldiers are being asked to volunteer by their government,they are expressing their opinions freely, much like you and me, as we all have to remember that it was 'us' the majority of Canadians that voted in both these governments that have kept us in this theater of war....if we are going to dismiss our soldiers opinions,perhaps we should also dismiss all those cons and liberals opinions as well, after all we did elect them and we all know that it is the people that influence how they act.... I guess only those NDP's and block party followers should be commenting on thise topic....

Here we are once again, using the deaths of soldiers and now a reporter to make a point, or in this case make a political point....Asking the same old questions over and over, ones that have been answered fully by not only this forum, our government, the media, and yet it simply alludes alot of Canadians.....want to make a point then do so, but lets not do it on the deaths of someone else... Frankly i'm a little disappointed in this whole thread which as most threads do quickly fade into a thousand different topics, and fails to concentrate on the main point.....or perhaps we all missed it,,,4 of our nations soldiers and a reporter, died in an IED attack....Doing the job this nation had assigned to them... I guess topaz had failed in reading her article she had posted, the why,where, is really spelled out in Taylors quotes....

A result of trying to rush in new tanks before thier time, It's been mentioned by serveral historians that it was these types of errors that kept germany from producing the numbers needed to keep it's tank fleets in par with it's enemies...Yes they produced a superior product , but lack the numbers to make a difference...They also produced to many model types, each model type had nummerous changes to it, which must have caused a logistical nightmare....This problem is reflected in all thier armour...Panthers, tigers, everything.

How about the largest tank ever made. German Maus tank weighed in at an incrediable 188 tons My linkwww.vincelewis.net/

The German panther tank, I think it deserves some mention here, ahead of it's time, once most of the problems were worked out. But it did have a major influence on todays tanks. My linkwww.achtungpanzer.

The Japanese have come along way in thier tank design, as seen here with thier latest Type 90 tank. Looks very similar to the Germany Leo II, and the ARV's got that american look to them. My linkpubs.globalsecurity.org/

I know it's alittle modern but here is a neat small tank with a large punch. CV90-T, armed with a 120mm main gun, and tones of defensive suits....Same family as the proposed new CCV vehs were are looking at. My linkwww.defencetalk.com/ Detailed data in the below link.... My link://www.military-today.

I was, I was frustrated with this whole event, as we just went thru with it just awhile ago, in reards to troops roughing up POW's which turned out to be false...And it looked like this was a repeat, however as time goes on it turns out that we all have been lied to, and it is very disappionting, as it will cast even more doubt on Canadians minds in regards to this mission. A mission that our nations soldiers have worked so hard at, and gave so much to...These lies threaten to undo all of that.

There is more to being a soldier than, Camaraderie, going with the flow, Soldiers are governed by many different laws and rules that dictate our actions, our way of thinking, our conduct....Civil law, military law, and inter-national law, plus the GC that Canada has signed on to. Break any of those laws and a soldier will be punished, in some cases on three different levels, for the same crime. Soldiers also have a code on honour that wraps all the above into one package, ensuring that a soldier does the right thing, at the right time. So while soldiers may be agressive in the terms they use to discribe the enemy, it's done for good reason, our primary job is to close with and destroy them, via the use of deadly force dehumunizing them is to make this job easier....but it does not mean that a soldier is uncapable of showing compasion,or be a good humanitarian when needed... I don't recall, ever getting nasty or coming across with an attitude with you, and if i have then i'm sorry it was not my intent. It has never been my intent to place doubt in your mind in regards to mine or other soldiers conduct or what they may be capable of doing. Most soldiers take great pride in adhereing to the military honour code. it is what keeps them balanced in very difficult times.

Hey DOP i thought the panther and tiger would have made your list. Not to mention any allied tanks

So what your really saying is thier is doubt in your mind, Canadian soldiers and the few Canadian officials in Afghan are capable of doing this...Capable of throwing everything we have worked so hard in building. For what exactly ? I'm not saying you don't support the troops or anything like that, what i'm asking is what placed this doubt or lack of trust in your mind ?

All this confusion is based on what exactly.... Do you honestly believe that our Nations Military would risk everything it's reputation, just so a few prisoners of War could be tortured, sorry i forgot a few famers, truck drivers, tailors, peasants, random human beings, when in reality most of the prisoners we take are off the battlefield...(even the media prints on each op we are on how many killed, taken prisoner...all available on line...) where just seconds before were shooting at us...so while he may be partially right they might not be High pri targets....but they are targets now the less...... I think there is a lack of trust between mr covin and the military....Our military does not have a quota that is set, and we take prisoners accordily, Most if not all prisoners we take are taken off the battlefield...you know guys with guns whom just seconds before were trying to put a bullet into a Canadians face....Farmers , truck drivers, tailors, peasents all must have a second job....And yet we are reading what in the media, all painting that picture or disent amoung Canadians....Canadians take the most prisoners....But we also run the most OP's and we are in a very target rich enviroment...but thats not mentioned, because that would put things into context...would it not... And somehow our prison that we hand over prisoners to is rank as one of the best Mr covin visted, the worst being the dutch's ....anything in the dutch papers...i wonder why that is.... I hope they do run an inquiry into all this bullshit...but i also hope they take action of some sort when it is proven false...and end this frigging prisoner treatment once and for all... This is not just about the top military personal, nor the government in charge....the genva convention spells out exactly how a prisoner is to be treated, and who is responsable and that runs right down to the pte that captured the poor prick......and Mr Covins statement, we are all to blame...including the Grunts on the ground....Once again we are left to explain accusations about prisoners abuse to the Canadian public, some soldiers have asked, where are our helo's, and other life saving equipment and go unheard... mention anything about some scumbag in cells, and you get peoples attention...maybe it should be us behind bars....

Israel defence budget is approx 12.4 Bil US dollars without US aid, with US aid it's 15.4 bil...hardly a make it or break it contribution... Somehow you forgot to mention what each of the other middle east countries recieve.

But the piont is it still had a role to play, yes it was re roled to keep up with ever changing tactics, and new tech, once tech allowed for a ship designed for the littoral role then the battleship as we know it was retired or should we say redesigned into a smaller lighter ship... Anything is possiable, i'm sure the German U boat commanders also have a great many of these stories as well, but then again so do the destroyers, and frigs and covette guys...sometimes murphy smiles upon you sometimes he sticks it to you.... One also has to put into contect the rules of engagement, even during the Vietnam war i'm sure carriers carried Nuk wpns...And from what i've read the new russian missle has perked up a shit load of US navy guys....as i'm sure a counter measure is on the books...all i'm saying is one wpns sys does not make an entire carrier battle group obsolete. So in ensence your saying manned fighters are going to be obsolete...that UCAV's of some form will rule tomorrow. That starts up an entirely new subject.... I guess i have some job security....i was kind of hoping for the opposite... My basic training Sgt, had a saying you can stop anything with the correct amount of balls and steel.... once a force is stalled it is hard for them to regain momentum needed to overcome an obsticle....such as a simple anti tank ditch...what works for them will also work in reverse...put enough metal on targets and something is going to give....we all don't get this lucky, thank god that the Taliban have not found this correct measure....but normally armoured forces do very well again'st grunts....

I guess the first step is to get our government to listen, listen to the voters...and if the voters place the military high enough on what they are looking at for the next leader of this country it will spur them into action..I know a large majority of Canadians are not happy with the state of our military, and many have spoken on this fact be it writing thier MP's rallies, , i guess we (citizens) are not unifed on the priorty we want our government to spend our tax dollars on... Well it goes along way in explaining lots of things, but it's not the only reasons. Over all i would say we have great leadership at the military level, and i do believe our government has our best interests in mind for the most part....and Canadians do care...i just hope we can all unite, and fix a problem that has rotted the forces for sometime now... I'm going to say yes, because of the way we are stuctured, and the way our government is structured which is a major road block in all the processes we have...we've created a mountain of red tape, and mounds of depts required to approve anything, from how much a soldier gets paided , to equipment purchases, basically everything the forces does...including combat... Both, when you live by the minute, you spend for that minute...also the way the entire government is set up for departmental funding...here is your budget , spend it or you'll get less next year...and there has been lots of spending , for the sake of spending....when this cash could have been used for something else...but this is a problem across every dept..not just DND. Our infamous purcurement process...another Made in Canada solution, that does nothing for the military, or for that matter for any dept i'm sure....I'll explain, the military wants to purchase a new truck.... it provides specs to PWSG a civlian organization...which goes out to the world with these specs, and gathers up wide varity of choices....sounds fair, much like telling your wife, i need a power tool that can cut a straight line...you can imagine what selection you will get....anyways from there we test them...we pick which one we want, thats within governmental regulations, that pretty much limit where when and what you buy....then it goes back to the government, it decides or comes back chose again, this time chose one that can be built or provide something back to Canada...a good rule normally but this is how we ended up with the famous LSVW...the government kept sending it back for testing until it passed, because it could be built in BC, by western star...DND had to take it down to the desert in the states to do final testing...guess what we have a truck that runs and works great in the desert...but sucks any where else....Yes we did approve it, but really it was a matter of approve or keep what you have now.... The perfect system would be tell DND we will fund you this year x amount of dollars to purchase equipment...follow these basic guide lines, some equipment will need governmental approval, such as stratigic equipemt like some types of ships, Subs, nuk wpns...that sort of thing...but the basic stuff like trucks tanks, helos, etc etc that should be a no brainer...And the purchases we do make should be justifiable to the government... Take a look at just what DND is on the hook for, all these expenditures in Afghan, that are not CIDA related are coming out of DND coffers...every mission is...any internal missions we do such as the olimpics, aid to civil power come out of DND coffers...plus there is other depts that come out of DND coffers, the Dept of emergancy prepations and planing, and a few more they are small but cut close to a bil or more off an already tight budget....It's all laid out in detail on each depts funding break down...not sure of the exact web site but it can be goggled... Not enough equipment to train on...bottom line there is just not enough vehs, wpns, night vision equipment, protective equipment, Basic clothing, we are short on everything....i don't mean a few here and there, most units only have 2/3 of thier peace time allotment of equipemt some less than 1/2...this shortage means DND moves it equipemt around alot....and when you place that muich demand on one piece it burns out much faster than expected, becomes even more expensive to maintain, etc etc ....for instance take the LAV III we have , when we purchased them we did not buy enough for each unit, now consider this all the equipement destroyed in training, subtract the equipment in use in Afghan, subtract the equipment destroyed in Afghan....and subtract the equipment just worn out because our numbers get smaller, and the remainder get used more....now we are in the market to replace the LAV III with serveral different makes and models...but we are once more going to buy less...because there simply is not enough funds... I'd say another issue is how we treat our wounded soldiers, yes we are getting better at it, but there simply not enough doctors or shrienks out there....Soldiers face long waiting times to get help they need... How we treat our families, always the last on every militaries list, but one of the most important... yes thier are family resource centers, and more programs in the last 5 years than we have ever had but more needs to be done in this area...not only providing our family members with the same access to doctors and shrienks....but also other programs such as affordable housing, more facilities, and other programs designed around the entire family unit....I once had a conversation with my son he was 9 years old on my last deplyment, it was a bad year for casualities, of course some of his classmates had lost thier fathers...and kids being kids made up a death poll...not all his class mates fathers where soldiers, yes the teachers put a stop to it, but it did play upon each of thier minds...this school now has a military support group, in which all military kids go in after school and just talk...and info is provided to them, things explained to them, rumours dispelled.... Don't get me wrong things are changing fast...but i would sacrifice some equipment purchases, to ensure our families have the best care money can buy... Overall we are well paid, well lead, and have the support of the people, and in return you have a great military that is well motivated to serve this nation, i just hope we can fix our problems together before it's to late...

I'm sure some navy guy can provide a more detailed picture, but the Belgrano was a cruiser. much smaller than the avg Battleship, she was also built during the second world war, but i doubt she was as modern as say the retired Missouri and her battle group. Correct me if i'm wrong but within the US navy the Battleship was the central part of a battle group, much like the Aircraft carrier is today, and like any naval battle group it's strength was in that battle group as a whole, each ship bringing something to the table...All that being said i have my doubts that a modern sub could have gotten past the battle groups own hunter killer subs, but anything is possiable... I think you underestamate the power of a carrier fleet and what it brings to the table, such as enough fire power to wipe out entire countries...If a Carrier group can make Mother Russia sit up and take notice...then thier has to be something about the abilities a carrier groups brings to the table...I'm sure even China would not want serveral Carrier groups parked off it's coast... 15 mins survival time, back in the day, when i was a young buck the avg survival time for the avg infanteer on a modern battle field was 7 seconds, from the time you stepped foot on it until someone carried you off...and yet the Infanteer will always have a role to play on the battle field...like i said before every thing has it's place it's use, and when combined that is when you see it's true value... In what way are they numbered, Just because the world is tuned itself into this Insurgent warfare rules concept don't for one second believe that the defense of this nation does not require fast air...it is a critical tool as important as ships, troops, tanks etc...much like chess each piece has a role to play, and when they are combined that is what makes them so deadly....without an aircraft to sweep the skies clean of enemy aircraft, ground forces are vunable to airstrikes...Ask the Iraqis, or Germans what it is like not to have air superiority....now add the valuable platform for delivering ordance on target on demand...good in any kind of war fare...you want a mulit task aircraft you need to pay for that... As for your fleet of helo's anything that flys is missle bait...the closer to the ground you get you alos have to worry about ground fire...Not only is the Leo IIA6 excellent at killing other tanks, but it is also very good a killing helo's, it's fire control systems are more than capable of tracking slow movers such as attack and transport helos' not only tracking them but predicting where they are going to when the shot arrives on target...top all that off with thousands of pissed off grunts like me with a some sort of wpn and you have a very deadly enviroment.... They do have a vast aray of anti tank missles available to them....however as i said a couple times already, when every wpns sys is used together it can not be defeated by one wpns sys alone...Inf screen for enemy inf , tanks provided direct and indirect fire when need, Attack helos provide the same in the air for all ground forces, etc etc when used together no one can get close enough to use those wpns...hence why they have relied on the IED, and commnad detonated the devices and have scored and damaged serveral of our tanks....

Well said AM, for alot of Canadians it is just an opportunity to piont thier fingers once again, for them it has never been about assisting in rebuilding a nation of millions, to give them a small taste of what we here enjoy and take for granted everyday...NO for them it has been about saying it is impossable tasking to accomplish, it's a waste of my tax dollars, and a waste of time, and energy... because thier victory has cost them nothing, but a few tax dollars....it is this investment that has them choked up, almost to the piont of actually getting out of thier chairs, and doing something about the mission. And yet i've yet to hear anything from the supporters of this mission, no one threatening the "i told you so speach" instead most will reflect on the time and effort that went into the mission....No finger pionting , no parades, no speaches....

Canada has alrady spent alot of time and funds chosing an replacement aircraft for the F-18....It was narrowed down to 3 aircraft, F-35, F-22 and Euro fighter...DO to cost the F-22 was knocked out, and well the F-35 is a better aircraft than the Euro fighter hands down...So if Canada ever gets the funding to purchase aircraft it's a no brainer... The government actually spent more time studying the pros and cons of manned or unmanned aircraft, than it did narrowing down the field to the F-35...

And yet they still served in most navies until well into the 90's, and well most have been made into museums they are still around... To even suggest the Aircraft carrier is a thing of the past, well sir, is alittle funney one commie missle does not make an entire naval battle group obsolete, it simply means that the battle group will have to incorporate different tactics and defensive systems. I think the Aircraft Carrier is here to stay for atleast another 30 years, serveral countries are spending billions on these new advance Carriers...It is one of the largest power projection tools in the US arsenal,in anyones arsenal and i don't think they willing to lose it just yet... As for fighters, I've read some of the research done by the CF in regards to the JSF, it seems that there was a huge concern over which type of fighter to purchase or wait for, Manned (F-35)or unmaned UCAV ( I think i may have it electronically i can PM it to anyone that wants it, it's not really for public consumption so i won't post a link to it) but no mention or concern of retiring the fighter as a tool of war...UCAV tech is coming and it won't be soon after the F-35 hits the market that the US will come up with a bigger badder UCAV, But as long as Man or i should say the Pilots have the need for thier adrinaline rush of going mach alot with thier ass on fire....man aircraft are here for awhile... After the cold war, governments where talking about getting rid of the tank....once again because of missle tech....and yet every nation seems to continue buying them up...missles or no missles...and yet every conflict we use them, because they serve an important role on the battle field.

More on Canada's concern about Software not being provided, it seems Canada is not all that concerned after all, media hype, Maybe.... My linkcommunities.canada.com

Which goes along way to proving my orginal statement of: We as a nation made that decision and now we must own it, instead of blaming one polictical party or another, or the Americans...

You mean maint on the computers themselfs, because the Military does not really repair much , what it does is replace parts until the fault is fixed...broken the computer replace it with a new one....I think there is more to this problem than what has been reported, there must be a way to maintain the aircraft, unless a US maint crew comes with each aircraft....