Army Guy

That explains it all, a worldly quote from a man who wants to continue running our nation. I hope that is not the best Canada can do and i hope the rest of Canada speaks through thier votes.

Black dog: There is already a federal dept and provincal depts of emergency preparedness which is funded out of the Military budget. Accounting for just over 1/4 of DND's total budget. As a cost saving measure it was agreed to use military equipment and personal for reasons already stated in other posts. You'll have to admit the military does go along way in carrying out our foreign policies.

I agree that spreading already existing and established Regular force units or formations across the nation is "not" the answer, and would only dilute thier effectiveness in any situation , be it preparing for combat or national crisses. Unless they were new formations that were created. On the other hand Harper never really was specfic in what "Military forces he wanted in our cities" regular or reserve forces, and perhaps we are all just assuming that is what he meant (putting in regular force units) . The Dept of national defense has been saying for years that it wants to increase the size of our reserve and Militia forces. These forces are already located in most if not all major popualation centers across the country. Yes they have guns, Tanks, even aircraft. and have had this equipment for decades. They are postioned in each of these population centers because that is where thier primary jobs are, being a reserve or part of a militia unit is thier secondary job. Thier not there to control the population, or in case of a national crisses ie forest fire, Ice strom, or flood, those units are there because that is where the population is based. Mr. Martin is not only the leader of the liberal party but is responsiable for all it's actions including all those that happen in the election campiagn, But he is also the PM of this country...of which the Department of National defense serve. His comments depict every man,women that has served or is currently serving our country as blood thristy beasts that threaten the very people they are paid to serve, and are unworthy or uncapable of living side by side with the rest of ordinary citizens of Canada. These comments only go to prove what the Liberal party truly thinks about the men and women of our Armed Forces. That risk thier lives on a daily basis putting our governments words and promises into action. These are not the comments expected of the leader of this Nation, but words of a desperate liberal trying to stay in the pork barrel.

What is the difference, the Navy is still part of our Military forces is it not. And your right it is all about perception and interpretation exactly what the liberals wanted. The fact remains that our military did assist the US naval forces during the time the invasion took place. Jordan

When as a nation have we used our military based on a bad chioce ? And i can't say with 100 % certainity that it will not happen in the future, However most of our operations that Canada has been involed with have been on a volunteer opition, if a soldier does not fully agree with the operation he simply does not volunteer. Yes there has been periods that this country has ordered it's citizens to war. but even then there are clauses placed in there to allow an indiv an out. When have we as a nation gone to war or sent troops solely based on the fact we were protecting the interest of the wealthy and powerful? As for the OIL aspect the western world depends on oil for it survival, not only the rich and powerful but everyone. The war on Iraq is not going to change that. Nor is it going to solve that, How much oil is actually imported from the outside the US, i think you'll find those numbers very small. Not every military operation is the same, but for the most part Canada as a nation has taken part in some noble operations. Which have primarily been about rights and freedoms if not ours then someone elses. Everyone is going to have different reasons for joining up and fighting. What freedoms would we have now under Nazi rule. Again you are entitled to your opinon. I believe this nation needs a force of people that are willing to stand-up to those that may want to take something from this country be it our freedoms or rights. And when man finally grows up and decides it's armys are no longer required i'll be the first to turn in my uniform.

The task force you are talking about was part of a US naval battle group which included an A/C carrier. what do you think that battle group was doing in the gulf if not supporting the invasion. Intercepting and boarding what suspect ships ( Iraqi ships) If that is not enough why are we now training Iraqi military and police forces in Jordan. We are involved, our goverment is just not telling you the whole truth. All this info is available on the DND web site.

A tool of the goverment perhaps yes, but no more than any other government worker. As far as our government is concerned and the powers to send us into combat your right we are at thier mercy to a piont , but we rely on the voters to keep them in check. Besides soldiers are not just going to throw thier lifes away for a governments bad chioce or politcal asperations. you've lost me, what privileged place are you talking about, Europe not under german control, or the rest of us under Nazi control. what have we siezed from someone else to earn our priviliged place. How do you get that (above) out of what you wrote (below) And as you've pionted out above you sure they protect our freedoms and are making a difference why not just say "thanks" and save your comments for those that deserve it. I agree that war is not to be glorified, and is the result of the lack of strong government leadership. but then your statement was not about war, but soldiers and citizens that believe there are things worth fighting over. such as rights and freedoms. Suckers."

It is relevent, it has everything to do with it. They joined because they believe that they can make a difference, that there sacrifice will be worth something. But, for the most part, it doesn't. And it's not. Thats your opinion, i have been doing this for over 26 years now, and i still believe that every endevour Canada has taken place in has been worth it. every last minute of it. To you it's a lie, to us that do it everyday it's what we believe in, and we do that as strongly as you do, in disbelieving it. when they stop believing they'll stop and get out of the military. Soldiers are not a bunch of mindless robots, everyone is giving the option to get out, war time being a little different but no one can make an indiv fight if the don't want to. Those that do believe what they are doing is right. Then what are you saying other than they are "suckers" implying that all our present freedoms that we take advantage of daily where not worth the price they paid for them. What price would you pay for any if not all the freedoms you enjoy today. What is it you are trying to tell me, that you don't like your current freedoms because the price was to high. And to achieve our current freedoms it took military intervention. the western world got to where it is now, through alot more than it's supremacy of arms "canada a perfect example" but it does retain it's current freedoms because it's military acts as a deterant to others. I think you watch to much TV, And regardless of what i post i will not change your mind, as someone has feed you a line of shit and you've bought it hook line and sinker. Soldiers are regular people just like you they have families ,dreams , asperations just like the rest of Canadians why is it so hard for you to believe that those that wear the uniform are going above and beyond that the everyday Canadian citizen does and they do it because they believe that what they are doing is worth it. they believe it is going to improve someones life. Stop thinking that the world is full of roses ...it's not ..it's full of thugs, scumbags who would not think twice of taking what every you have, and put 2 in your forehead just because. Someone has to stand up . Draw a line in the stand and tell them cross it and pay the price.

It is relevent, it has everything to do with it. They joined because they believe that they can make a difference, that there sacrifice will be worth something. It's not about taking a few moments and remembering those that sent them to fight...it's about those who believed it was a worthy cause and risked thier lives for a better future. Thats all. Soldiers don't care much for politics or the people that send them into battle. And there not doing it for our political masters they are doing it for a better future, hoping that their sacrafice will mean something to someone someday. To call those people suckers is a slap in the face. It implies that those that did go before us, did so in vain and yet we are here today taking advantage of the fruits of thier labour. The world may of been a much different place had they not gone and fought in the fields of Ypres, Somme,Vimy Ridge,or Dieppe,battle of britain,Holland,korea and the many many more battles. The piont is this, It's not about approval of War, or our political masters it's about taking a moment and saying thanks to a soldier. A Hero, just like a firemen, or a policemen. No the game stops, when man figures out a way to solve his problems with out violence. We both know that is not going to happen in the near future.

Black dog: Comments better served ,by keeping them to yourself. I'm sure that every soldier has his owns reasons for serving his country. I also sure that none join for the reasons you've mentioned. Calling them suckers, because they have a different set of morals, a different set of values and see the world in a different light than you do is an insult. Don't hate the player hate the game.

don't think there's too much of a question about it. The world is now very different than it was pre-Iraq-II. Muslims around the world are now lining up to be recruited into anti-American groups... like never before... So I wouldn't say that the world is safer at all.... or better off... unless of course you have shares in Exxon, BP, or Haliburton Thats not true, it is not becoming more popular with foreign muslims it's actually estamated that they make up only 10 % of the insurgents. Number of total insurgents are est at between 10,000 and 30,000. Compare those numbers to ones that are jioning the Iraq military, police,etc and you'll find that more Iraqi's are jioning the US coalitlition side than the insurgents side. What message does that send. It proves that they are more interested in getting on with thier lifes than fighting the US and coalition forces. As you suggested. No i'm not, those guys that attacked England,Spain, etc were part of a small cell of terrorists of maybe 6 to 10 people out of the millions of Muslims in the world they make up what % of the total muslim population. your statement above makes it sound likes thousands are joining and they are not. Just a few radicals. So let me get this straight you can assist in war operations again'st Iraqi forces, terrorists,and other hostile forces and not be considered actually taking part in the war on Iraq. Is that what you are saying.. Because that is what i am trying to tell you, that the Canadian Navy along with Maritime A/C assisted in operations again'st Iraq. The answer to your question is NO, Canadian troops did not land troops in Iraq, they did however take part in naval operations again'st Iraq. Our Liberal party lied to you and to the rest of us. Canadians did take part in the invasion of Iraq. That is your opinion, your entitled to it. but that is not the piont here is it. the piont is in order for the Iraqi people to recover from this Canada and the rest of the world are going to have to do something to establish security so that the regrowth of the nation can begin. Sticking our heads in the sand and pionting out all the US mistakes are making is not the answer. what really matters here are the Iraqi people. Not who's mess it is. We already know who's mess it is, lets stop are childish behavior and just do something about it.

What is stopping them from putting down thier arms right now, and concentrating on building something. anything. Israel is not stopping them from doing that. Have you been to Israel, i ask because at most Israelis borders you look into the Israelis side and see green you see life, you see infra structure you get the piont. view into the the other borders all you see is sand, sure a few houses but mostly sand. My piont is if the Israelis can turn a barren hell hole into a green area, why can't the rest of the arabs. Your joking right, palestianians bomb Israel, Israel takes measures to protect itself and it now becomes Israel's fault that the Palestinians are in the boat they are in. Your quote below even states that Israel takes measures to lessen the effects on the palestianians and they repay Israel with a new wave of violence. Your right it is Israel's fault, and they should be made to take down the wall, they should learn how to die like good jews did in WW II, They should be made to pay them dirty little bastar*s. Someone once said every man is responsiable for his own actions. And for every action there is a reaction. It's time for both sides to take responsibility for thier actions.

I agree, however that does not mean you don't take every threat serious. i mean were are not talking about a couple of AK's here, but a Nuk wpn that could cripple Israel enough so that other Arab nations or even Iran could easily finish the job. What about Sadam, You can not tell me that he did not know what the US or Coalition forces could do militarily. perhaps maybe the first gulf war, but the second. He had to have known that he would be overthrown. This is a man that allowed his SON's to die in combat...what else could he sacrafice perhaps his own life...making me think that nothing else matter except his own life, (or he to would have died in combat next to his sons or during capture ) and he or others like him think they will survive any attack.

A leader of a nation does not go on International TV and make threats that they have no intention of carring out. that works both ways Irans leadership has been quoting they will use Nuk wpns against Israel and Israel has said they will not permit Iran to have Nuk wpns. They are not threats but promises. Here is another is another link.My Webpage This new wpn system actually works unlike the one the US has been developing and surprise who is backing it all the US. I'd also like to piont out Israel naval capabilities.

Thats not true, it is not becoming more popular with foreign muslims it's actually estamated that they make up only 10 % of the insurgents. Number of total insurgents are est at between 10,000 and 30,000. Compare those numbers to ones that are jioning the Iraq military, police,etc and you'll find that more Iraqi's are jioning the US coalitlition side than the insurgents side. What message does that send. Even if they below estamates were off lets say by 100 % that leaves 100,000 insurgents out of 27 million. I'm not getting the same message as you are, this shows me that a majority of Iraqis want peace, and the either don't want to fight or want the changes that the US is offering. On returning from a recent tour of Iraq, U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman, a Democrat, wrote in the Wall Street Journal: "It is a war between 27 million and 10,000; 27 million Iraqis who want to live lives of freedom, opportunity and prosperity and roughly 10,000 terrorists who are either Saddam revanchists, Iraqi Islamic extremists or al-Qaida foreign fighters who know their wretched causes will be set back if Iraq becomes free and modern." for insurg My Webpage My Webpage You don't get it ...while the liberals were telling you and the rest of Canadians that Canada would have nothing to do with this operation, they ordered the navy our navy into the gulf to assist US naval forces involved in the Invasion of Iraq. They were not sitting in some port awaiting for things to change they were in the gulf assisting US naval forces. So Cretien never keep his word. He lied to all of us. And when the US asked for more, he agreed to send troops into Afgan to free up US forces there. Again it's not about the US it's about the people in Iraq and rebuilding thier country. Why Canadians soldiers because this is what we do...it is what our military is good at. Would oil make any difference, would it justify our actions, would it justify our inactions ...it's not about oil but people.

Your correct, there were no WMD, nor were there any terrorists links, However your not suggesting that the world would have been a better place with Sadams regime still in power. Sensible how, by telling Canadians that Canada would not take part in the Iraq invasion that it would not support this operation. Then order it's navy into the gulf to give assistance to the US fleet involved in the invasion. or by ordering it's martime surveilance aircraft to do the same. The liberals knew well ahead of time that Iraq would not go so good and any military force sent over there would suffer alot of causulties "something that is not voter freindly" NATO threw Canada a bone and the liberals jumped all over it sending troops into Afgan the safer of the two. There is no reason now to not get involved more than we are already,regardless of why the war was started thats a mout piont now. the Iraq solution requires more countries to get involved to establish the security Iraq needs so that the rebuilding process can begin. So that the Iraqis can get on with there lifes. That would be the sensiable thing to do .

Like they have a choice, Israel shares borders. I don't think that is true in most of the cases, they just remove thousands of jewish citizens that had settled in those occupied areas. A move that was a major issue with the palestians leadership. One that in my opinion was a step in the right direction. But that was not enough for the palestians they continue to bomb and attack Israelis. It goes to show that no matter what the Israelis goverment does or gives them they will not stop fighting until they push them into the sea... Building the wall, was the first step. completing the wall and then ban them entrance into Israel. It has already proven to limit the amount of attacks. Then forgetting that they are even there. Perhaps when there forced to do something else other than kill Israelis they might even consider doing something with what they already have.

Nor should they be afforded any rights, they lost those rights when they assisted the other Arab countries in the War against the Israelis. Those lands that have been mentioned are not part of Israel but considered land occupied by Israel. And the only way they are going to get back those lands is by talking at a table during peace talks...not by bombing or other cowardily attacks. What have they done to deserve any rights that Israel may give them. What have they done for themselfs, nothing... they've done nothing for themselfs because hate fills thier entire day and night. The wall was the best thing Israel could have given them the next step would be to cut them off totally.

To bad Canada can not follow thier lead.

Perhaps if we looked at this problem of why Canada needs a military at all in phases. Phase 1 DND's main job is the defence of Canada, it can't do that if there is no military, be it big or small it needs a military force atleast capable of protecting its own borders. Which brings up the question by whom is Canada threaten by. -Any country that that could project a military force, most recent example is Hans Island , they have already demostrated that they could land troops if nessicary, and have done so publicly in thier current bun fight with ottawa. It would be a mout piont if we had no military force to counter that threat. It does not have to be a full scale attack, just taking small bites at a time. - Protecting our borders, including our off shore fishing grounds, northern borders, and airspace. This function could be done by other depts but i must add in the past both France and Spain have sent warships to escort thier fishing ves, and in one case a French war ship rammed a Canadian frigate. what would have they done to an unarmed coast gaurd ves. - terrorist, I did not want to add this because the military can actually do little to prevent an attack, however there is still a military element that can deal with terrorists be it shooting down aircraft or by the JTF option. The military plays a much larger roll in protecting high value targets such as parliment, our Nuk power plants etc. And they play a much bigger roll in the after math of any attack, no dept has the equipment or personal to deal with a dirty bomb, or chemical attack, - protecting Canadians from ourselfs, be it from a Quebec separation or other internal crisses. - Having a military plays a major roll in our foreign affairs policy. And what we can do outside our borders. let alone protecting Canada's interest outside of Canada. - Any country that has a beef with the US, that pretty much includes everyone, Canada is the weakest link in the US security belt, going through Canada would be a tactical option. Phase 2 operations other than war, - without a military peace keeping would not be an option, And yes Canada has slipped in regards to peacekeeping with the UN but they are not the only peacekeeping group in town, with the UN becoming a toothless organization more effort has been placed with NATO operations such as Kosvo,Bosina, Afgan. - Humanitarian missions would not be possiable without an organization similar to DND's Phase 3 Domistic operations. - there is no other organization other than DND that can provide Canadians with a quick response to major floods,ice storms, forest fires. - DND provides a majority of the SAR effort in Canada. My piont is Having a well equipped, military is not just about war, it's about serving Canada in a multitude of ways ...being prepared to defend everything we take for granted every day. it's about defending others so they can enjoy some of the freedoms we do, it's about our moral values. It's about ensuring that those that have paid the price for our current freedoms have not done so in vain.

Black dog: I have tried and can not find a specfic poll to answer your question. Would you say the top ten would be on a major parties platform for re-election. And would you say our military will be on that platform. My Webpage I agree i myself worry about these every day. However most people in Canada are unaware of just how the military effects them on a daily basis. We are arguing the same piont, and i was telling another poster that the only people that can change this is the voters. and was explaining why it should be a priority before it is to late. My piont is that the lack of a white paper just proves the lack of time and effort the government has given the military, writing such a paper would mean they would have to give us the tools to do the job. writing a weak paper would mean have to answer to the people for something else...not writing one at all means no questions. So DND has taken it upon it self to re-structure to suit the budget and present equipment holdings. I'm not angry, and did not mean to come off that way, just saying bullshit. Politicization of our higher command was a problem up until a few years ago, I believe that Gen Hiller has a grip on that now, and DND's gens are becoming more focused on the troops and the Dept. I will agree that we do have some room for approvement. As for the other levels i would say no, I think this changed when DND stopped making excuses for our goverments leaders. and started becoming more transparent. Yes 94, you made it sound like it was DND who purchased the subs. Could you please send the link over again its damaged some how. I will agree with you there is alot of waste in every dept. but most of these is the governments decision to continue these wastefull practices. It is strong government leadership that is required to change those across the entire government. something we have not had in a long time.

Flea bag: It is easy to be candor when you are very passionate about your chosen station in life. As for my punctution and spelling i apologize and will take more time on my posts. "Does Canada need a military?" this is the question that really needs to be answered. I strongly believe we do, based on my experiances here in Canada and overseas. Who will the people of Canada call upon in time of crisses be it a flood, ice storm, major forest fire... and Who will the people call when things escalate beyond the capacity of the police to handle such OKA, FLQ etc...And who will assist other countries in need, be it disaster relief, or just peace keeping. And who will patrol our coast, our air space, enforcing our sovereignty and protecting everything we as Canadians like to call ours such as our fishing grounds, our Islands. But a few things todays Military gives our country on a daily basis. Countries are kept in check because they know there are consquences, and using military force is an option. Without that option would Denmark have not siezed Hans Island and worried about world opinon later. Sure you can give those responsabilites to other existing depts but in the end you'll still have the same problems of funding... This is what i get out of Black dogs comments, Nobody gives a shit about our military, nor do they want to spend any of thier hard earned dollars on an department that he thinks is redundant or serves no purpose . And DND is run by a bunch of financial challenged irrisponsiable war mongers. I will agree we don't use it like the US does, not many nations do.. but they still use it like every country with a military does, it is still used as a foriegn policy tool. And Canada has used it in an offensive manner, when they agreed to join in on the War on terror, Canada agreed to send combat troops over to Afgan not only for the sole purpose of engaging the terrorist in combat, but to give this nation a chance at peace. As i pionted out show up with what, todays warfare requires equipment that takes years to build. There are dozen of cases where Canadian soldiers have been involved in a shooting war Perhaps not in the traditional sense as history has shown...but what do you call it when to forces exchange heavy gun fire in anger. I'll give you a good example last year sometime the PPCLI was finally recongized by the GG for engaging serbian forces carrying out ethinic cleansing. and yes Canadian soldiers took the lives of over 30 bad guys. nothing was reported in Canada even today people know little about the Medac pocket. My piont is we do war every time we are sent on a peace keeping mission. This is why we are known as great peace keepers because we are impartial and will kick your ass if you cross the line. As for a mighty military proving ineffective again'st a bunch of insurgents. That is up to interpution. Ask a Iraqi insurgent, who controls his country, and he will say the US. He can plant bombs until the sun sets or raises but the next day it's the US that is still there in full control of his country. Canada's military will never reach the mighty catagory, and it is not the goal of DND. As a serving member all we want is the chance to continue serving our country, and to do that in the safest manner possiable. Something our country is failing at. DND is not a department that is in alittle bit of trouble it is one near death.

Black dog: I must have hit some chord judging by your remarks, Thats not what the polls show, over 80 % agree that our military is in poor condition, roughly the same agree more funding is required. So someone out there has it on thier priority list. yes health care, education and taxes is on everyone minds, these depts are not even close to the disarray that DND is in. Every government has thrown monies at these problems at yet we are still faced with them every year. As for Jobs go since when did it become the feds job to create jobs. ""Canada's military tradition is of answering the bell when called;"" your dating yourself Black dog, those years are long gone when some drill instructor gave you a rifle,blanket and some training and shipped you off to war. Nothing in the military can be produced over night, or for that matter in months. All future conflicts are come as you are. or in our case as your dressed because that will all we will have. "we don't get our rocks off on a strong standing military force" Who is talking about a strong military force, is that what you call what we have now. We are talking about a military force that can fullfill all our mandates issued by our government. Not taking over a small country in the tropics. Bullshit...Don't be fooled by what our government classifies as military spending. if you do some research you'll find DND 's budget is not so large and over the years our goverment has made DND responsable for other depts and spending as well. "but of the mismanagement and lack of priorities of the military." Now your sounding like a liberal...teflon, nothing sticks to the government piont to the military they did it....When was the last time we had a white paper, oh wait DND's fault. and why is that (so they don't have to fallow through with any promises) Stop making excuses for a poorly lead government...i'm not saying DND is perfect but when it stands next to the liberals it's god like... DND did not push that purchase through, the goverment did...Subs were not even on the list of things to buy at that time. some polition seen them with a for sale sign on them and said this would be great....even the navy shook their heads in disbelieve....but when you starve someone for long enough they'll eat shit if you feed it to them... The problem with our country is goverment does not want to spend on the military, there is nothing in it for them and yet no one has the balls to tell those in uniform the games over. because that is really all we want, fund us let us do our job , or tell us to go home...not starve us to death over along period.

Is that what they call it, it's not a word i would apply to government but sure. Its is a sad fact that this damage was carried out with the people of Canada's blessing. Yes and No, the government controls everything within the military including it's numbers. DND has plenty of people banging on the doors, trying to join. Lack of funding has all but wiped out it's training enviroment and facilities. They simply could not train the numbers it would take to improve or even maintain our current levels. Something most people don't fully understand, is the average age in DND is between 34 and 36 years old with the average retirement age of 40. just in manpower terms alone DND is in critical condition. Massive recruitment will only delute the quality of the soldiers,and produce leaqdership that are not fully trained as it take upto 4 years to fully train a soldier, plus another 2 to 3 to train them in the leadership skills they need. And we have not even talked about equipment yet. Once these soldiers retire in mass numbers it will be to late for Canada's Armed Forces...There exhausted from doing deployment after deployment, thier tired of being beaten by government, and the people of Canada, they've done everything Canada asked of them and have recieved nothing in return. Do you think they will remain until Canada's government gets it's act together or do you think they'll say we told you so, and remain in retirement.

TML12: Canada's military is in the exact postion that it's people wants it to be in. The goverment is not going to change that anytime soon. ( buying a few airplanes does'nt even scratch the surface. Only the people of Canada can change the state of our military by making it one of it's priorities. By demanding our government take postive action now and by demanding more of DND's leadership. Thats unfortunate, and alright if you want to settle for second best, Because Canada's military is still one of the best in the world, despite the damage our goverment has inflicted upon it. Regardless of what equipment it has, it's members are second to none.