Army Guy

Since we are talking about a court of Law here, one can not assume anything one must be able to prove it...It works for both sides. The US government might not be able to convict Omar on throwing the grenade as they assumed because he was the only one left alive who could have done so....

Actually there is a need to define it, and it is defined under the Genva convention, Inter national law and Canadian law. Under which it states "...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental"... This same content is used under all 3 of the above agreements that Canada has signed. Omar was not subjected to torture in fact his own lawyers have quoted he may of been subjected to torture...they did not say he was subjected to torture...Even our supreme court does not mention he was subject to torture...and thier main bone of contention was his other rights were not protected....hence thier judgement...

I think most Canadians will agree that our soldiers are paying a signicant part of the cost for this mission. Is it worth it, i think it is, but thats one opinion, but then again there has been thousands of soliders opinions recorded in the media, you'd be hard press to find a negative one....I also think that the fact that this mission is made up of strictly voluteers, speaks volumes to that fact...and a large portion of those volunteers are repeats serveral times over...it is not uncommon to find soldiers with 5 or 6 tours....and yet they continue to stick thier hands up, and it's not for the money, because really it's not all that great. it's not because we want to be in combat, because it's not all that great either... It's about being a Canadian Soldier, part of a world class military, from a country that has so much to offer, .It's about using all our training , abilities , resources to accomplish something good...not just combat , but changing lifes...one at a time....It's this helping others that has got our soldiers hooked, seeing a major changes in every roto that we do...good changes not just in the schools we build, the dams we build, the hyways we build, but the Afghans using them to improve thier lives...I've yet to talk to a soldier who has come back and said that was a waste of time and effort....and if some how we could convey that to the people of Canada i'm sure we would be staying until the job was done. Thats what our soldier want to stay and finish the job, so we don't have to come back, so our cost already paid will not be for naught.

I found this while doing some research on the conventions and Canada laws refering to Omars case. I'm not sure what to make of it . It's a copy of a court transcript filed Under Omar... While we have spent alot of band width discussing Torture or what constuits it...the court documnet does not spend a lot of time on it. infact it only suggests that what happened to Omar "May" constuit torture...i think it goes along way into explaining the courts actions...perhaps someone can give us a deeper explantion. The para i'm reffering to is under the OVERVIEW, and in Para 7 My linkwww.law.utoronto.ca/

Thanks waldo.

That question is answer every time those aircraft arrive in trenton, amd those coffins are lowered to hallow Caanadian ground for the final time...It's been answered well over a hundrd times have you not been listening....or perhaps you've been ignoring them.

I'd still like to read a cite as i can not find one, to get the entire picture from all sides..One would hope that the courts did infact look at this charge in detail and using Canada's own definition of torture and compare them with actual events. not those displayed in the media where it is assumed that was torture of the worse kind. But in stating all that... Where do you think this is all heading...is it preparation for something to come....I just have a bad feeling that in one years time from now i'll be reading the news and it's headlines will read, Khadr set free, landmark lawsuit settled for millions....later on to be seen on terrorist networks on thier version of cribs....showing off thier new multi million dollar home....mean while back in the states they'll show the home of Sgt Speers widow, Canadian justice at it's finest....Or for that matter lets show them our wounded vets in court trying to stop government claw backs from meager wounded benifits....

So let me get this straight, Amnesty international is the worlds leading experts on the defination of torture. Not the UN or geneva convention but AI. And they have declared in this case of Omars defense that he was subjected to torture based on all the facts in this case. Is there a cite for this claim? I mention that because it is really a major portion of the claims made by some on this board that Canada is guilty of violating Omars rights. They have indicated that CSIS persons interviewed him knowing that he had been tortured and did not take any action on his behalf....And will play a major role "if" he is returned to Canada for proscution... I'm not sure i'm ready to refer to AI for what may or may not be a large payout of tax payers money to a known terrorist.

Does'nt really say much about the Canadian people and thier exceptance of going to war does it...As for knowing it was futile, i doubt very much that Most Canadians could find Afghanistan on a map, today let alone when this whole operation went into effect.... Do you really think the average Canadian has perspective on things in Afghan, I don't....here is some of thier arguments the NO sayers have for perspective... 1. Historically no country has been able to defeat the Afghan people. Which makes it a mission Impossiable...Can not be done regardless of what we do. 2. You can not defeat an ideal, in this case the taliban Ideal, .... 3. You can not defeat a terrorist group with military forces.... 4. NATO military actions are drive Afghan people into the Taliban arms, and creating more taliban fighters. 5. We support our soldiers not the mission. And the list goes on and on, and on....would you say those are the factual perspectives based on what is going on thier now... Your point about The West is true, but I would say that things have changed over the last 8 years or so.

Canada is not alone in the south, there are dozens of countries that are also involved in the fight, and our district while very hostile is not the most dangerous , try the Hemlend district which the british operate in.... That being said our military has been operating above it's wieght for some time now, and has been accomplishing the jobs and tasks assigned to them but thats thanks to our soldiers that do more with less....The same soldiers that want to stay and finish the job....But it has not been carrying all the weight, not even close...considering the British in the hemland with twice the amount of troops and equipment....

It's not historical precedent that wins wars, it's countries with the will to win, thats what wins wars...had we followed historical precedent Vimy would still be in german hands... I hope your counting the majority of Canadians in that blood thristy crowd you talk about...and war isn't Hollywood....if there been more coverage on the Afghan people and the day to day fight they contend with , i think most Canadians would still be in favor of destroying the Taliban and thier cronies....

Kind of Ironic that it was the Battle winners that decided to save Khadrs life, who decided to write the history as it is today...even you admit it was US soldiers that decided to take action and save this mans life... But i'm wondering what did the members of Al Qaeda decide that day, what where there actions which involved this kid...there actions where to gun down 3 Afghanis soldiers who where knocking on the door...there actions where to bring the fight to those soldiers...knowing full well it was not going to end well for them....

Here is where we disagree, and while the killing of an armed under age terrorist would be regretable, It would strenghten my resolve that this terrorist group needed to be stopped, and brought to justice as these crimes of using children in battle are but just one on a list that is very long... But then again we are from opposite sides of the coin. he see it as a blight again'st Canada, and NATO...i see it as a blight again'st the taliban and it's terrorist comrads... What is Canada's policy on crimanals placed under custody in foreign jails or prisons, what is the policies for bringing back combatants or terrorist serving in foreign prisons...do they all get the treatment we requested for Omar....Just a question.

And what of the new Pie detecting devices that see thru crusts....who's going to pay for them...will other pies protest as it would be a form of porno...imigine seeing naked pies all day, forced to look at fat double crusted pies, burnt pies,topless pies, even hairy pies, ....where is this country going to stop all this....

Shit...shady you'd be branded a Terrorist, a meat pie terrorist the worst kind....

If found guilty Capt Semrau will serve his time...And justice will be served...I wonder do you think he'll get a 2 for one consideration, maybe a braclet...or maybe we should demand the full sentence be served ... But you failed to answer the question...if khadr had been killed on the battlefield would you have had the same reaction...

Here is what the Canadian experts are saying...MIGHT happen if Khadr is brought back.... He'd be released and subect to wearing an elctronic braclet....Man that is one harsh sentence..does our justice system proud...but what do i know... mean while hundrds of our vets sent over to smash the same organization that Mr Omar belonged to....hundrds of them that have been disfigured and maimed for LIFE might have to run into young mr omar in the streets of toronto....wonder how that will go down...Seems fair our vets handed a LIFE sentence....omar got what time served and a braclet.... My linknews.globaltv.com/world/story

We don't have to like the solution, but lets not forget we are thier because his government invited us there, this may be edvidence that NATO is not pulling the strings but the Afghan government is. We also agree to assist them in rebuilding thier country, not to our standards but to Afghan standards...and once again we don't have to like it, but rather support them in thier slow process of regaining thier country back to a form acceptable to most afghanis. One also has to remember that alot of those Taliban fighters are fighting for money to feed thier families, and may not be tied to the taliban because of thier beliefs but rather they pay better than the Afghanis government...in this country money talks alot, and so does feeding your family.... Can't please 100 % of the people all of the time....there are alot of unsavory characters already in the Afghanis government shit their is alot of unsavory characters in our government. in the end it is the Afghanis people who will have to decide who goes and who stays through elections... Shit we have terrorist in this country that peacefully pursue thier agenda's, and we turn a blind eye....if you understood the afghan people then you would know they are not willing to live under taliban rule again...and if taliban want to remain in power then perhaps it is them that will have to change thier ways or not get re elected... I like you, fine...sir Bandelot in fact i like you more than some of the other posters here atleast you can string thoughts together and express an idea....with some facts...

I think AM is on the right track here, and i'd like to piont out your facts are based on "that 30 % wome who took the survey" not 30 % of all serving women within the Military...DId all the women in the US military take the survey ?, survey's are kind of like polls they give you a sample but not "all" the facts... It does not say how many where surveyed, 1, 2,12, or all 206 K ....

It's become so serious that some liberals want to see if PETA can by tried under our current anti terrorist laws....who knows maybe in the near future we will have anti pie laws, where if convicted you'll get a life sentence, serve two years and be put on the no fly list as well.... And perhaps pies will be banned from all modes of transportation....and one more question for you while checking in your bags...Have you left them unattended sir, vist any bakers sir, have any pies on your person sir....Thank you for flying liberal air....

Then you have a site backing up your claim, that those pakistan soldiers where following US orders...Since when does any pakistan soldier listen to orders issued by the US...No william i think you'll find those orders came from the Pakistan government.... You also have a site proving that humanitarians are being hunted down by Pakistan or US forces, i'll make it easier lets say all of NATO forces... Are you implying that Al Qaeda or the taliban are humanitarians? your sadly misinformed...how may humanitarian groups do you know that have cut childrens hands off for going to school, skinned a man alive , staked him to the ground to cook in the sun,or convince children to become suicide bombers, the list of thier crimes and actions is very long ...I wonder if the Red cross ever did anything like that... No william your facts suck because thier based on your deluded opinions, your inability to separate fact from fiction, and perhaps your anger from not being accepted into our nations military...The same military that you now claim are made up of murders....No william your facts suck because as always you've not done your research, or completely misunderstood the info presented.... I will tell you this... you can call me what ever you want as long as i can continue to serve this country with some of the best soldiers on this planet, who have conducted themselfs with nothing but honour, integrity, and commitment...they do us proud...

Ya i think he's guilty, guilty enough to recieve 3 bullets in a fire fight, with NATO troops, which ended with the deaths of serveral Aghan national army personal, and a US medic....but hey he's got what 6 or 7 other charges to answer for as well... And yet alot of Canadians are weeping for poor Omar he's just a kid...he's been twisted by his parents, tortured by the US, and forgotten by Canada....SET HIM FREE they scream...it's someone elses fault...mostly the US fault because that is the good Canadian thing to do blame the US....Nobody made him get involved in that fire fight, he could have fled, or hide or just lay in a ball crying....he needs to be held accountable for his actions, as with anyone charged with these type of offense...He made a chioce regardless of age he made it, it nearly killed him, now he must stand up and be judged...What about all the other Omars in Afghan what do we do with them.... I just wonder what would have been Canada's reaction if the media came back an annouced he'd been killed on the battlefield that day...would we have even blinked an eye...would it even made the paper....would we be calling for an inquiry on the death....would we have looked into his family past and held them accountable....I don't think so....Omar would have been put in a shallow grave his mother crying vowing vengence....and that would have been it....

Bullshit, first of all Our country is not using anything, as the case is before US courts, with Canada waiting on the outcome...and many of the SAVE OMAR crowd is quick to piont out Canada should get on it's white stead and go galloping to this terrorists rescue....What about all those other Canadians found guilty of crimes overseas, are we rescueing them to...where is thier white horse...or team of SAVE ME specialists...Is that what we do rescue terrorist now, don't we have enough terrorist in our country right now....what makes this case above all the other cases so different? They've used every excuse in the books, and yet here we sit still waiting, young mr Omar will soon be transfered to a cell in the US, and he will langish there until the US justice system is done with him...That much is fact, soon afterward Omar will fade into the limelight and thats a fact...sure we'll hear about him from time to time but he'll be in in US cells until they release him as it should be.

While doing some research about Terrorism in Canada i found this , it's actually kind of shocking.... It's old 2006 but still reflects the kind of problems that reflect todays Canada. My linkwww.canada.com/ National Post reported that as many as 3,000 people ordered deported for “human rights abuses, terrorism ties, war crimes, gangsterism links or criminal convictions” are still living in Canada. Twenty-seven thousand other foreigners also ordered deported are still living underground in Canada as part of the approximately 400,000-large illegal immigrant population. These numbers are huge...

If you read his statement, he says before the grenade was thrown he engaged the postion in which Khadr was found and was postive he had killed his target with a head shot, it was after everything was done and he approached the postion he found 2 person there, one alive and one dead, he Assumed that it was Khadr who thrown the grenade because he was the only left alive, and he'd killed the other guy before the grenade was thrown ...SO your right he is not sure, as he did not see who threw it, but then again grenades don't throw themselfs...perhaps the lone man on the knoll....