dialamah Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 An oil industry executive says that countries should charge carbon taxes to help phase out use of oil and coal. His company also plans to invest 1 billion a year in renewable energy development. http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/shell-oil-warn-fossil-fuel-industry-carbon-taxes-ben-van-beurden-renewable-energy-a7622211.html Quote
Guest Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, OftenWrong said: There there not to worry. Eventually the impending suffering outweighs the preeminent suffering, so that we actually do things. I don't think it will, or we will. Until it's too late, of course. Unless you're still worried about Pluto. Seriously though, have you never heard of lung cancer? Edited March 14, 2017 by bcsapper Quote
Wilber Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 Times they are a changing. EV and plug in hybrid sales are increasing at a great rate in Europe, Norway and the Netherlands in particular. When I was in Amsterdam last year it seamed like half the Schipol cabs were Teslas. Range is a bigger problem in North America but plug in hybrids and EV's with gasoline range extenders (Volt etc.) are a good solution. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 Where can I buy a Canadian designed and manufactured EV ? Does the price include a carbon tax ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
August1991 Posted March 14, 2017 Author Report Posted March 14, 2017 Has anyone noted the OP of this thread? (Or the thread's resurrection?) Canada already has a Carbon Tax (CO2 tax) on gasoline. We have a 10 cent per litre federal excise tax on gasoline. Maybe we should extend this federal excise tax to jet fuel (kerosene) and diesel - and make the rich pay. Quote
Argus Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 16 hours ago, Wilber said: I believe they have but this government is very attached to user fees so they can claim they haven't increased taxes, so it is hard to say how the actual tax burden has been affected. Not that hard... http://www.bnn.ca/b-c-s-carbon-tax-no-longer-revenue-neutral-fraser-institute-1.673840 Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 14 hours ago, ?Impact said: Then expect a huge tariff on what you import into Canada. The current for global corporate cheaters only so called free trade needs to change. Okay, Donald. That tarrif will have to be on EVERYTHING we import, then, or just about, because nobody but Europe is willing to damage their economy by cutting back on CO2s. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Wilber Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Argus said: Okay, Donald. That tarrif will have to be on EVERYTHING we import, then, or just about, because nobody but Europe is willing to damage their economy by cutting back on CO2s. Is Europe damaging its economy by cutting back on CO2? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Argus Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Wilber said: Is Europe damaging its economy by cutting back on CO2? Given they've spent upwards of a trillion dollars on nothing, I'd say that'd damaging. Do you think higher taxes have no impact on an economy? Edited March 14, 2017 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Army Guy Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 19 hours ago, dre said: The purpose of Carbon taxation is to create a market incentive by making companies internalize the costs of pollution. The hope is that creating an incentive for technologies that release no CO2, or less CO2 will increase investment in cleaner technologies and we are already seeing that. IF (and I realize its an if) a major breakthrough is made, then we could get off fossil fuels without much pain at all. Carbon taxes could make the difference between entering the next "energy age" 50 years from now instead of 200. If you think that the problem can NEVER be solved by technology then its understandable why you would be against incentives designed to increase R&D. I however firmly believe that technology will, so I support modest attempts to speed that up, which is what we are seeing. And CO2 is only one reason to get off fossil fuels. Energy costs have been rising and they are already an impediment to global economic growth. They are also very volatile because they are based too much on the price and availability of commodities instead of technology. I believe that at some point in the future energy will be virtual free... and I figure, the sooner the better. Plus... I didn't even notice when carbon taxes were implemented in BC. I don't feel like I'm suffering. Carbon tax is code for the government needs more funds and this is the perfect scheme to gather those funds.....this would be easier to understand if the government just came out and explained it all to us, for instance all fossil fuels are already taxed.....what are these taxes and what are they for ? You state that one purpose for the carbon tax is to give incentives to companies to find ways to reduce carbon foot prints....Ok now we are getting some place, except one thing, most of the so called companies are passing those expenses off to the consumer.....so all carbon taxes incurred are being forwarded to us the consumer...by increased prices of goods and services....the fact you use the word HOPE is telling, when describing that they MAY use resources to develop tech to reduce carbon out put. And perhaps it would for those in the field to do so.....But do you really think the average mom and pop store is going to have the resources to afford this.....But the main question is this..... This would all make sense if the government was doing more with the taxes they are scooping up by the truck loads.....Are they using these taxes to further reduce the pricing of green items that reduce carbon , such as solar, wind , water power to the average consumer, Note there are some small incentives out there depending on which province you live in...but nothing worth converting to just yet....things are getting a little better, in some provinces like Ontario where you are allowed to place your excess electricity back on the main grid and get credit for that....but not in all provinces...Such as NB, which will allow you to pump power back on to the main grid, and allow you to zero your power bill, but will not pay or give you credit you for extra power generated. It will not allow you to zero any rental fees you may have such as meter, or routine maintenance, or lamp post costs or extra outdoor street lamp on your land. Are they using those taxes to fund rebates into the R&D of new tech.....yes but they are small and only cover certain areas of research.... One way to guarantee R&D will be pushed forward is if major incentives are given to companies in the field....working closely with these companies and other incentives provided by government. This carbon tax right now as it sits is nothing more than a way for the governments at all levels to print money.....and all in the name of saving the planet....which these efforts will not save anything....Everything is being pushed onto the consumer he is the one right now that will bring our carbon levels down .....with very little help from government at any level......we are the ones that are going to bear the brunt of all this..... Last Question......what is the government doing with the surplus taxes....i mean after everyone is given their rebate check what happens to all the surplus.....what is that money going to be used as....and how much of it is there..... 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Wilber Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 17 minutes ago, Argus said: Given they've spent upwards of a trillion dollars on nothing, I'd say that'd damaging. Do you think higher taxes have no impact on an economy? How have they spent a trillion dollars on nothing? Are you saying their CO2 emissions would be the same if they had spent nothing? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 28 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Carbon tax is code for the government needs more funds and this is the perfect scheme to gather those funds.....this would be easier to understand if the government just came out and explained it all to us, for instance all fossil fuels are already taxed.....what are these taxes and what are they for ? You state that one purpose for the carbon tax is to give incentives to companies to find ways to reduce carbon foot prints....Ok now we are getting some place, except one thing, most of the so called companies are passing those expenses off to the consumer.....so all carbon taxes incurred are being forwarded to us the consumer...by increased prices of goods and services....the fact you use the word HOPE is telling, when describing that they MAY use resources to develop tech to reduce carbon out put. And perhaps it would for those in the field to do so.....But do you really think the average mom and pop store is going to have the resources to afford this.....But the main question is this..... This would all make sense if the government was doing more with the taxes they are scooping up by the truck loads.....Are they using these taxes to further reduce the pricing of green items that reduce carbon , such as solar, wind , water power to the average consumer, Note there are some small incentives out there depending on which province you live in...but nothing worth converting to just yet....things are getting a little better, in some provinces like Ontario where you are allowed to place your excess electricity back on the main grid and get credit for that....but not in all provinces...Such as NB, which will allow you to pump power back on to the main grid, and allow you to zero your power bill, but will not pay or give you credit you for extra power generated. It will not allow you to zero any rental fees you may have such as meter, or routine maintenance, or lamp post costs or extra outdoor street lamp on your land. Are they using those taxes to fund rebates into the R&D of new tech.....yes but they are small and only cover certain areas of research.... One way to guarantee R&D will be pushed forward is if major incentives are given to companies in the field....working closely with these companies and other incentives provided by government. This carbon tax right now as it sits is nothing more than a way for the governments at all levels to print money.....and all in the name of saving the planet....which these efforts will not save anything....Everything is being pushed onto the consumer he is the one right now that will bring our carbon levels down .....with very little help from government at any level......we are the ones that are going to bear the brunt of all this..... Last Question......what is the government doing with the surplus taxes....i mean after everyone is given their rebate check what happens to all the surplus.....what is that money going to be used as....and how much of it is there..... Quote Ok now we are getting some place, except one thing, most of the so called companies are passing those expenses off to the consumer.. That's the entire point. If the market value of something dirty increases, theres added incentive to invest in something clean. Quote Are they using those taxes to fund rebates into the R&D of new tech.....yes but they are small and only cover certain areas of research.... One way to guarantee R&D will be pushed forward is if major incentives are given to companies in the field....working closely with these companies and other incentives provided by government. The government doesn't need to directly invest. Investment and innovation should come from the private sector. The purpose of these types of incentives is just to nudge the private sector in the right direction. Its a better way to do it than direct subsidies IMO. Quote This carbon tax right now as it sits is nothing more than a way for the governments at all levels to print money.....and all in the name of saving the planet....which these efforts will not save anything....Everything is being pushed onto the consumer he is the one right now that will bring our carbon levels down .....with very little help from government at any level......we are the ones that are going to bear the brunt of all this..... The consumers (whether they are businesses or individuals) are always the ones that will pay for everything. Quote which these efforts will not save anything That's a pretty bold claim coming from someone that obviously doesn't understand the concept of tax incentives. How can you be so sure, that the increased investment in alternatives wont generate a breakthrough that dramatic reduces emissions? All that's required is the development of viable alternatives, and we have already made lots of progress in part due to the incentives already on the table. Quote we are the ones that are going to bear the brunt of all this Very good Captain Obvious! All funds in existence come from people performing labor, or from loans against future labor. You say that as if it was some salient, important point. The things to consider are... 1. Is "bearing this brunt" in our best interests. 2. Making sure the "brunt" is not unduly burdensome. Its a balancing act. Obviously if the taxes are too large, that will create problems in the economy... if they are too small then there's no incentive created. Its a balancing act. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
PIK Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 So we have trudeau down in texas telling oil men carbon taxes are good and then he send Wall(who is against it) down to the states to talk business. Weird. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Army Guy Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 Quote Ok now we are getting some place, except one thing, most of the so called companies are passing those expenses off to the consumer.. Quote That's the entire point. If the market value of something dirty increases, there's added incentive to invest in something clean. The incentive being more taxes, nothing more than beating the citizens with a stick, which is doing nothing more than giving the government permission to print money, sure they give a little back in hopes we will fell good putting it some of it in our banks for a couple of days once a year, however the majority of that tax collected is going into government coffers and marked surplus to be spent on more ridiculous ideas. And some how you want me to buy into that hook line and sinker because it is good for the environment.... Sorry i'll pass. Quote The government doesn't need to directly invest. Investment and innovation should come from the private sector. The purpose of these types of incentives is just to nudge the private sector in the right direction. Its a better way to do it than direct subsidies IMO. The government is the one that decided to pull the nation in this direction while others are not, or looking at reversing work in this area....so if they do not have to invest then perhaps they should return all the taxes collected under the Carbon tax scheme.....But wait a minute that's not happening, like i said they are printing money for nothing.....and they will just keep increasing the taxes until the public sector see's opportunity to make some money according to what you say..... Just saying today there is no alternative to not using fossil fuels , and until there is there is no incentive for people to stop using fossil fuels, people will still have to drive, heat their homes, costs for green materials or ways to reduce carbon foot prints are to expensive. so the average guy is caught in the middle, can't go green and can't stop using fuels.....the middle class guy, the guy that liberals are so fond of, and want to help.....is getting bent over the table.....because our government does not want to invest in this latest feel "good project", but it wants to look good on the world stage....so it passes the buck onto it people....and in the process collects shit tones of new taxes....and thats the better way.....perhaps it is the liberal way...... Quote The consumers (whether they are businesses or individuals) are always the ones that will pay for everything. Business don't pay for shit...what ever cost they incur is added to the price of their goods or services....it is always the end consumer that pays.... Quote That's a pretty bold claim coming from someone that obviously doesn't understand the concept of tax incentives. How can you be so sure, that the increased investment in alternatives wont generate a breakthrough that dramatic reduces emissions? All that's required is the development of viable alternatives, and we have already made lots of progress in part due to the incentives already on the table. I don't have to understand tax incentives to know that this entire project is nothing more than a feel good exercise. the largest carbon producers on the globe are not going to follow this day dream or they can not going to be able to afford this crazy scheme by themselves....So i ask you on the global stage what are we going to achieve with all this effort ?A small drop in a very large bucket..... hence my claim... How can you be sure that the dramatic break through your looking for will not come from government funded or tax incentive programs, or that it will not accelerate that progress. it seems to be a common sense thing if you double your work and double your funding you have double the chances of having a break through.....i mean having the government put their money where their mouth is and show us some leadership.....even if the made affordable all this green systems such as solar, wind and water carbon reductions would be still huge....like they did for R2000 homes.... . Quote Very good Captain Obvious! All funds in existence come from people performing labor, or from loans against future labor. You say that as if it was some salient, important point. The things to consider are... 1. Is "bearing this brunt" in our best interests. 2. Making sure the "brunt" is not unduly burdensome. Its a balancing act. Obviously if the taxes are too large, that will create problems in the economy... if they are too small then there's no incentive created. Its a balancing act. I may not be the financial genius that you are, but i can tell you that i am getting tired of following some party that has taken up the latest cause and is running with it on the global stage, and making us pay for all of it, so they can get what out of it again.....do you think history is going to show JT as a environmentalist...give me a break.....going green has a huge cost to it.....that much we already know, What i do know is you don't add more taxes on a economy already not performing or stalled....you do the exact opposite, 0 Quote Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Argus Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 4 hours ago, Wilber said: How have they spent a trillion dollars on nothing? Are you saying their CO2 emissions would be the same if they had spent nothing? I'm saying that their attempt at reigning in CO2 emissions is largely meaningless. Emissions are larger than they were and are going to continue to rise as India, China and the rest of the third world pour more coal into the fires. If present levels have caused warming, as so many insist, then continuing to increase them is going to make it worse. Which means that instead of pouring hundreds of billions into a futile, doomed campaign to address CO2 emissions the money should instead be put into research and into doing things like building breakwaters and walls to protect against flooding, and relocating people where that's not possible. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Wilber Posted March 15, 2017 Report Posted March 15, 2017 2 hours ago, Argus said: I'm saying that their attempt at reigning in CO2 emissions is largely meaningless. Emissions are larger than they were and are going to continue to rise as India, China and the rest of the third world pour more coal into the fires. If present levels have caused warming, as so many insist, then continuing to increase them is going to make it worse. Which means that instead of pouring hundreds of billions into a futile, doomed campaign to address CO2 emissions the money should instead be put into research and into doing things like building breakwaters and walls to protect against flooding, and relocating people where that's not possible. Waist of time. If we are just going to keep increasing emissions at an ever growing rate, we are all eventually going to cook anyway and if the wealthiest, most advanced countries aren't going to take a lead, the rest of the world won't bother. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 15, 2017 Report Posted March 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Wilber said: Waist of time. If we are just going to keep increasing emissions at an ever growing rate, we are all eventually going to cook anyway and if the wealthiest, most advanced countries aren't going to take a lead, the rest of the world won't bother. Agreed...waste of time to do what Trudettes want to support in the way of carbon taxes. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
?Impact Posted March 15, 2017 Report Posted March 15, 2017 51 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Agreed...waste of time to do what Trudettes want to support in the way of carbon taxes. What is a Trudette? Quote
Wilber Posted March 15, 2017 Report Posted March 15, 2017 1 minute ago, ?Impact said: What is a Trudette? Ignore, he comes from a country that is removing all references to climate change from government websites. They think ignoring it will stop it from happening. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 15, 2017 Report Posted March 15, 2017 10 minutes ago, ?Impact said: What is a Trudette? It is the Canadian version of a "Trumpet" for equal cross border political sniping. Kinda like a Chevette vs. a real Chevrolet. Trudettes support carbon taxes and pipelines...in the same brain at the same time. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 15, 2017 Report Posted March 15, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Wilber said: Ignore, he comes from a country that is removing all references to climate change from government websites. They think ignoring it will stop it from happening. No, mostly "they" don't care if it happens. Carbon taxes sure won't stop "it" from happening, whatever "it" is. My country has conducted far more research on "climate change" than yours ever will. Edited March 15, 2017 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wilber Posted March 15, 2017 Report Posted March 15, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: No, mostly "they" don't care if it happens. Carbon taxes sure won't stop "it" from happening, whatever "it" is. My country has conducted far more research on "climate change" than yours ever will. Carbon taxes are an attempt at behaviour modification, like taxing the crap out of cigarettes and booze and like those taxes it will have some but limited results. Groups of people are actively collecting that data and moving it offshore to places like Canada because they are concerned your government is going to flush it. Edited March 15, 2017 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 15, 2017 Report Posted March 15, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Wilber said: Carbon taxes are an attempt at behaviour modification like taxing the crap out of cigarettes and booze and like those taxes it will have some but limited results. Groups of people are actively collecting that data and moving it offshore to places like Canada because they are concerned your government is going to flush it. Carbon taxes will not reduce greenhouse gases in any significant way.....it is political theatre. Lots of room in Canada for copies of U.S. climate change data and analyses, as always. Canada is good at that. Edited March 15, 2017 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wilber Posted March 15, 2017 Report Posted March 15, 2017 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Carbon taxes will not reduce greenhouse gases in any significant way.....it is political theatre. Lots of room in Canada for copies of U.S. data, as always. Canada is good at that. Given the apathy, I think you are right. We are fucked. Yup, lots of room but it is Americans who are doing the collecting and moving it offshore, not Canadians. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 15, 2017 Report Posted March 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Wilber said: Given the apathy, I think you are right. We are fucked. Yup, lots of room but it is Americans who are doing the collecting and moving it offshore, not Canadians. I know....Canada is far more dependent on U.S. research data and government investment in "climate change". This forum provides ample evidence of a longstanding addiction to American climate change resources (NASA, NOAA, NSIDC, Goddard, DoD, etc.). Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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