Canada Federal Carbon Dioxide CO2 Tax

[Guest]

How do think seven billion going on ten possibly fifteen billion people are going to change the atmospheric components enough to te reverse climate change without suffering?

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Nothing any of us do will curb global warming.  It won't be curbed. 

What global warming are you referring too

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

What global warming are you referring too

Pluto's. I swear, it's getting up to three or four degrees above absolute zero some days up there. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by bcsapper

[?Impact]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

Pluto's. I swear, it's getting up to three or four degrees above absolute zero some days up there. 

Average surface temperature on Pluto is 44 Kelvin

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Average surface temperature on Pluto is 44 Kelvin

Wow, It's getting worse than I thought.  

 

[Wilber]

10 hours ago, bcsapper said:

How do think seven billion going on ten possibly fifteen billion people are going to change the atmospheric components enough to te reverse climate change without suffering?

I never said it could be reversed but if it can be delayed until steps can be taken to better deal with it, there would be a lot less suffering.

[dialamah]

14 hours ago, blackbird said:

I am opposed to carbon taxes of any kind.  I am not convinced man-made global warming is anything more than fiction.   global warming which always has been a natural phenomena.  It is just a scam and tax grab.

1

Whether it's a man-made phenomenon or a natural cycle it is still going to affect humans, so mitigation seems like a good idea to me. 

From BC Gov Website 

Quote

While some amount of future climate change is unavoidable, we can minimize negative impacts by preparing ahead of time. By ensuring that communities and businesses are more resilient to extreme weather events – for example by creating FireSmart communities – we can reduce the social and economic costs of these events. If we design new buildings and infrastructure with tomorrow’s climate in mind, we will spend less on maintenance and our communities will be safer.

 

At some point in the past, the BC Gov also wrote this:  

Quote

Warmer winters have resulted in the mountain pine beetle  epidemic, which has destroyed an area of pine forest equivalent to four times the size of Vancouver Island.    The pine beetle has infested 13 million hectares of B.C.'s forests. By 2013, it is predicted that 80% of BC's pine forest will be "red and dead".

1

However, it's not all bad.

Quote

The warming climate that helped trigger B.C.'s mountain pine beetle outbreak might also be helping the province's forests recover, according to new research led by federal government scientists in Victoria.

That's because B.C. forests are responding to climate change by growing faster, said the lead author of the study published in Geophysical Research Letters.   "This turn-around will happen much sooner than we imagined," said Arora.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Climate change is already affecting fish, farmers and ranchers in BC, who are working on finding ways to mitigate those effects:

Quote

"I just don't know what normal is," said Greg Norton, who owns a cherry orchard near Oliver in the Okanagan and has been growing food for 27 years.

"That's the biggest challenge about climate change. There's no question it's here. The challenge is what do we do? How do we respond within our sector and our regions?"

1

 

Quote

Ranchers in the interior are concerned about dugouts drying out and increased drought and wildfires.

In the Fraser Valley, berry farmers are contending with an earlier growing season and increased competition from foreign markets.

 

 

 

 

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The B.C. coast has seen record warm ocean temperatures of up to three degrees higher than normal, and it is already affecting marine life.   "Fish move with the cool water or they perish," said Rashid Sumalia, a bio economist at the University of British Columbia

 

Climate change effects on animal behavior have been noted since 2008, including this one:

Quote

Eight selected bird species in British Columbia have exhibited long-term trends toward earlier arrivals, later departures, and northward range extensions, with some species transitioning from migrants to year-round residents during the period studied.

 

 

Regardless of whether you believe that climate change and global warming is natural or man-made, the fact is we are going to be affected; no doubt, whether the change is ultimately good or bad only history will tell - but what's coming is a sea change for humans.   Our generation is just starting to feel the effects, but the ones after us are going to be getting the full brunt of it.   Hiding your head in the sand and yelling "It's a leftist plot" is just dumb.

 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Wilber said:

I never said it could be reversed but if it can be delayed until steps can be taken to better deal with it, there would be a lot less suffering.

I don't think so.  For all the efforts made so far the CO2 continues to increase in our atmosphere, and we're getting to the stage where methane is going to release from frozen hydrates at an accelerated rate. I don't think we can change it at all in any meaningful way without suffering.  (And I'm not suggesting that that is what will happen.  What I'm suggesting is that we're doomed)

[dialamah]

36 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

  (And I'm not suggesting that that is what will happen.  What I'm suggesting is that we're doomed)

 

LOL.  This kind of optimism is such a British trait, is it not?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

LOL.  This kind of optimism is such a British trait, is it not?

Have you ever seen our football team?

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Wilber said:

Maybe not but we can buy time to deal with the results.

We have time now. What are we doing to ameliorate the results we know are coming?

..... nothing, right?

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Whether it's a man-made phenomenon or a natural cycle it is still going to affect humans, so mitigation seems like a good idea to me.

Me too. But let's spend tens of billions on carbon reduction while we think about whether we want to do anything about this 'mitigation' idea for a few decades or so.

[Wilber]

40 minutes ago, Argus said:

We have time now. What are we doing to ameliorate the results we know are coming?

..... nothing, right?

 

Because it seems our survival instinct doesn't go beyond the most primitive level. As a group we don't seem able to do any more than curl up in the fetal position and hope it goes away. So much for human "civilization".

Edited March 13, 2017 by Wilber

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Whether it's a man-made phenomenon or a natural cycle it is still going to affect humans, so mitigation seems like a good idea to me. 

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by mitigation.  We should be prepared and adapt to climate change.  Putting a price on carbon and imposing carbon taxes on people will only hurt the economy and increase the cost of living and chase investment and jobs away while doing nothing to stop climate change.  So people are not only being affected by climate change and must adapt, but they are being hit by government taxes and regulations on the energy industry.

[blackbird]

41 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Because it seems our survival instinct doesn't go beyond the most primitive level. As a group we don't seem able to do any more than curl up in the fetal position and hope it goes away. So much for human "civilization".

Climate change has always occurred throughout history and don't believe that man has the power stop it.  We can adapt to any negative effects of changing climate.  The idea that man can control the climate is not credible. 

[Wilber]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Climate change has always occurred throughout history and don't believe that man has the power stop it.  We can adapt to any negative effects of changing climate.  The idea that man can control the climate is not credible. 

Depends on what you mean about "controlling". Can our actions affect climate? I don't think there is any question but that they can. 

[?Impact]

13 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Putting a price on carbon and imposing carbon taxes on people will only hurt the economy and increase the cost of living and chase investment and jobs away while doing nothing to stop climate change.

Wrong on all counts.

Putting a price on carbon will improve the economy and decrease the cost of living and attract investment and job while reducing the rate of climate change. It is a win, win, win, win, win on all sides.

You will notice that I have provided exactly the same substantiation to my claims as you.

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

Wrong on all counts.

Putting a price on carbon will improve the economy and decrease the cost of living and attract investment and job while reducing the rate of climate change. It is a win, win, win, win, win on all sides.

You will notice that I have provided exactly the same substantiation to my claims as you.

You are being contrary for the sake of being contrary which is being a contrarian!

[Wilber]

15 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I'm not sure what you mean by mitigation.  We should be prepared and adapt to climate change.  Putting a price on carbon and imposing carbon taxes on people will only hurt the economy and increase the cost of living and chase investment and jobs away while doing nothing to stop climate change.  So people are not only being affected by climate change and must adapt, but they are being hit by government taxes and regulations on the energy industry.

Regulations and standards are what are needed, not a tax which just takes money away from R&D and infrastructure. Emissions regulations have done wonders for the air of our cities. Smog was a huge problem in North American cities during the sixties and seventies, now their air is clean in spite of the fact there are three times as many vehicles on the road.  There are things that can be done but they won't happen without commitment.

[?Impact]

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You are being contrary for the sake of being contrary which is being a contrarian!

No, I am providing an opinion which is what you were doing. Now do you want to get into details why?

The world is slowing moving to a non carbon based energy paradigm. That is a given, for many reasons. Canada needs to be a leader or else we are giving away our future for the sake of the profit of a few foreign owned oil companies. That doesn't mean we stop oil today, but we create a roadmap to get us away from our dependence on it. Carbon taxes will incite the private enterprise to make the change, that will be far cheaper than the government paying the cost. Carbon taxes will not, repeat not increase the cost of living; government can reduce taxes in other areas to offset any carbon taxes. They will provide the incentive for using different, more efficient and less polluting sources of energy.

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Regulations and standards are what are needed, not a tax which just takes money away from R&D and infrastructure. Emissions regulations have done wonders for the air of our cities. Smog was a huge problem in North American cities during the sixties and seventies, now their air is clean in spite of the fact there are three times as many vehicles on the road.  There are things that can be done but they won't happen without commitment.

Agree with emission regulations to reduce air pollution, which is a major problem in many cities.   The focus of Trudeau to put a price on carbon is a whole different issue.  That will not affect air pollution, but it is a misguided attempt to reduce CO2.  Unfortunately carbon dioxide has become the bogey man that many fear because of the fear mongering about the fiction of man-made global warming.  Many do not understand that carbon dioxide is an essential part of life on earth.  It is necessary for plants, forests, and vegetation to breath.  It is also absorbed by oceans and performs a natural function in the equilibrium of the natural order of life on earth.  Huge amounts of carbon dioxide are released by volcanoes and forest fires every year.  Many scientists dispute the claims of the man-made global warming theorists.

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

It is necessary for plants, forests, and vegetation to breath.  It is also absorbed by oceans and performs a natural function in the equilibrium of the natural order of life on earth.  

Yes, and man has upset that equilibrium.

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

Many scientists dispute the claims of the man-made global warming theorists.

and many more don't. The point is those that actually study the matter, except for a few extremist views, do support the theories. Yes, perhaps some plant biologist that never lifts her eye from the microscope starring at triticale is unable to see the larger picture but that doesn't lend much credibility.

[blackbird]

11 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

 Carbon taxes will not, repeat not increase the cost of living; government can reduce taxes in other areas to offset any carbon taxes.

If you believe that, I have a piece of real estate and a lot of other things to sell you.

As a senior, I paid over $2000 in direct carbon taxes in the last eight years in northwest B .C. on natural gas heating and auto gas.  The B.C. government claimed they gave a tax reduction to offset it as part of the so-called revenue neutral carbon tax.   Nobody seriously believes that.  The fact is only certain citizens paid the most carbon taxes while the rest of the population paid little or no carbon taxes.  People that did not use natural gas or oil heating paid no carbon taxes on that.  People with electric heating or wood stoves (which are air polluting) pay no carbon taxes.  People who live in apartment buildings and ride transit buses or skytrain pay almost no carbon taxes.  So it is a very discriminatory tax  Most of the rest of the world pays no carbon tax while some of us in B.C. have been used as the scapegoats in the great battle against climate change.  It is an unfair and discriminatory tax grab.  The slight reduction in income tax that might have been given was spread around to everyone in the province and would amount to a tiny fraction of what some of us paid in carbon taxes.  Therefore while some of us paid thousands of dollars in carbon taxes in the last eight years, that money was taken and given to mostly everyone else.  Hardly revenue neutral, which is phony political rhetoric.

Edited March 13, 2017 by blackbird

[?Impact]

Just now, blackbird said:

The fact is only certain citizens paid the most carbon taxes while the rest of the population paid little or no carbon taxes.

Totally untrue. People pay carbon taxes related to their generation of C02. If you ride public transit then you pay carbon taxes in your fare equal to you contribution to the C02 produced by the transit provider. The fact that they generate far less C02 per rider mile than your SUV is the whole point. If you live in an apartment building heated by natural gas then the carbon tax will be in the natural gas used. Yes, I think there should be some tax on electricity even if it is hydro generated as in BC because there is still a C02 footprint in building those generating stations, etc - over time that will transitioned in as new facilities are added; note that things like gas used by the utility trucks does get added to the electricity so operating costs are included. Wood is a renewable resource, so it is not unlocking carbon sequestered hundreds of millions of years ago. 

[dialamah]

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The fact is only certain citizens paid the most carbon taxes while the rest of the population paid little or no carbon taxes.  People that did not use natural gas or oil heating paid no carbon taxes on that.  People with electric heating or wood stoves (which are air polluting) pay no carbon taxes.  People who live in apartment buildings and ride transit buses or skytrain pay almost no carbon taxes. 

 

That is the point, though - move people away from using resources which release chemicals in the air which increase global warming.

Here's a video explaining carbon taxes and various implementations.  It's simple enough even I understood it.