U.S. Democracy In Decline

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

Canada has about 11% of the combined Canada-US population.

If we make 10% of the domestic vehicles for those two countries, that should be fine.

But if America wants a "We do all the vehicle manufacturing, GFYS" relationship, then that's fine, they can build all the Fords, Chevies and GM's they want, we just won't buy them. Any of them. And we will drop the tariffs and import quotas on vehicles from Europe and Asia. 

The problem with that is that these companies were never only American.  McLaughlin from Oshawa was folded into General Motors as Buick.  McLaughlin himself was a GM VP.  Ford has been on both sides of the border almost from its inception.  Bowmanville, Ontario was the rubber centre.  Canada has been a major parts supplier and has had many of the most efficient plants for many decades.  Those “American” companies are part-Canadian.  We also buy as many cars from the U.S. as they buy from us.

This attempt to simply take Canada’s manufacturing is exactly that.  It’s not about fairness.  They’re applying economic pressure to seek unfair advantages.

I would like to see a Canadian company like MAGNA produce complete cars.  We just need our versions of the Accord and Civic.  I’d also like to see joint ventures with new players, including from China.  

Edited October 28, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

We can't afford to have the US trying to destroy our country at the same time as the LPOC is doing it. 

I actually think Canada needs to retool. America is moving away from mineral extraction and processing so the demand is there. This is where Canada could shine. Your excess hydro power can be used to process raw material that you mine from the North. We just don't need more Canadian automotive manufacturing that could be done by robots. Neither do we need your engineering talent. That's all jobs America can and should take for ourselves. The parts not able to be done by robots should be shipped to Mexico where labor is much cheaper and just as good as Canadian or American labor. 

[Zeitgeist]

9 hours ago, paxamericana said:

I actually think Canada needs to retool. America is moving away from mineral extraction and processing so the demand is there. This is where Canada could shine. Your excess hydro power can be used to process raw material that you mine from the North. We just don't need more Canadian automotive manufacturing that could be done by robots. Neither do we need your engineering talent. That's all jobs America can and should take for ourselves. The parts not able to be done by robots should be shipped to Mexico where labor is much cheaper and just as good as Canadian or American labor. 

But in parts of Canada the auto industry is a way of life. My wife is from an auto city in Ontario that had three plants. Autos were the number one employer for about 70 years.  They’re down to one. No country would willingly give up these good middle class jobs and industrial capacity.  I understand why the U.S. wants more of these jobs too, and you’re right to point out that most manufacturing jobs will be automated eventually, which is why tariffs feel like a ham-fisted way to deal with the biggest challenges, which are automation, A.I., and falling birth rates.  Tariffs create some short-term wins and protections, and in some cases are warranted, but generally they lower productivity, raise costs, and shrink markets.

You’re right to point out the advantages Canada provides to supply chains in terms of raw materials and energy, but there are some centres of excellence in Canada that we shouldn’t let dwindle, in areas like agriculture tech, biotech, A.I., etc.  I understand why the U.S. would see us as a competitor in some of these areas, which is where trade diversification comes in.

In the bigger picture both countries should understand where they can compliment each other.  Canada has cheap, bountiful energy, which also means we produce aluminum.  We have rare earth minerals and other resources that benefit US supply chains.  Some of this isn’t easy to replace domestically in the U.S., so Canada has that leverage much as the U.S. has the leverage of access to its market.

Deals must be struck.  I wish we didn’t have to deal with the bureaucracy and duplication required to do business in the U.S. and that Americans had similar ease of access. We should all be able to live and work in each other’s countries, move goods freely across the border, and simply obey the local rules. That possibility is remote as long as Canadians fear that their economy and sovereignty are threatened by the U.S..

Edited October 29, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canadians fear that their economy and sovereignty are threatened by the U.S..

A fear that is entirely one sided I assure you.
 

It actually doesn’t make sense to annex Canada to be frank. The Math is really bad from a political and financial sense even if Canadians were willing to be 51st. Your population is retiring and will need massive amounts of government money to pay for your social programs.
 

But it has been in the US strategic interest for 200 years to absorb all the people living on this North American continent under one flag.

That is the only reason America would be willing to bail out Canada. Food for thought @Zeitgeist. 

[WestCanMan]

This thread has abandoned the title entirely, so I'm just gonna leave this here as my final word on "the state of democracy in the US":

There was nothing wrong with Trump imposing tariffs on behalf of the American people in early 2025, that was business as usual, but imposing tariffs because he was personally upset by a TV commercial was contemptible, and light years beneath his station.  

Still, it's not like it wasn't within his purview to impose tariffs. He is elected to have and to wield that kind of power, and he did nothing to threaten American democracy by doing so.

The kind of misuse of power that actually tears at the foundations of the US democracy is when the demonrats weaponize the FBI and DoJ as attack dogs against their political opponents, even going so far as to have them blatantly commit felonies in the course of their underhanded activities.

The US is no longer a democracy once a political party takes down the opposition with the misuse of judiciary and the federal police force, and Biden even went so far as floating the idea of turning the SC into the Dems' own kangaroo court. 

The US came extremely close to 1-party rule, and it was not under Donald Trump.

[Zeitgeist]

8 hours ago, paxamericana said:

A fear that is entirely one sided I assure you.
 

It actually doesn’t make sense to annex Canada to be frank. The Math is really bad from a political and financial sense even if Canadians were willing to be 51st. Your population is retiring and will need massive amounts of government money to pay for your social programs.
 

But it has been in the US strategic interest for 200 years to absorb all the people living on this North American continent under one flag.

That is the only reason America would be willing to bail out Canada. Food for thought @Zeitgeist. 

Well there’s also the little matter of our resources, which on a per capita basis should make us some of the wealthiest people on Earth, but you need investment and markets to get it out of the ground.  Really the U.S. and Canada should work together for the benefit of the citizens of both countries.  Much could be accomplished through a more diplomatic approach.  For a start, if Canada is geographically larger than the US and its population is growing at a faster rate, it would need to be multiple states, probably 10.  The complexity and bilingual nature of the country require a Canadian bureaucracy in Ottawa.  So why not just call it Canada, stop taunting Canadians to give up their sovereignty, and see what can be achieved through an economic union?

After a few decades much of the duplication would disappear and the countries would be aligned on most policy, with a few notable exceptions, which is fine. Canadians and Americans could choose to live where and as they choose according to the opportunities and local rules that agree with their ambitions.  It’s not hard to do and it could be done in stages.  Otherwise we hammer out another trade agreement and agree to disagree on a handful of issues, which is also okay.  I’d like to see a bigger vision than a simple trade agreement, but you have to respect the wishes of majorities to get to something lasting.  Relationships are huge.  Winning hearts and minds gets you further generally than the stick in most areas.  

Edited October 29, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

This thread has abandoned the title entirely, so I'm just gonna leave this here as my final word on "the state of democracy in the US":

There was nothing wrong with Trump imposing tariffs on behalf of the American people in early 2025, that was business as usual, but imposing tariffs because he was personally upset by a TV commercial was contemptible, and light years beneath his station.  

Still, it's not like it wasn't within his purview to impose tariffs. He is elected to have and to wield that kind of power, and he did nothing to threaten American democracy by doing so.

The kind of misuse of power that actually tears at the foundations of the US democracy is when the demonrats weaponize the FBI and DoJ as attack dogs against their political opponents, even going so far as to have them blatantly commit felonies in the course of their underhanded activities.

The US is no longer a democracy once a political party takes down the opposition with the misuse of judiciary and the federal police force, and Biden even went so far as floating the idea of turning the SC into the Dems' own kangaroo court. 

The US came extremely close to 1-party rule, and it was not under Donald Trump.

You’re right in many ways but both parties have pushed the limits of democracy.  The Dems went too far with lawfare.  Trump is trying to skirt checks and balances by using the dubious pretext of national security to push through the blunt instrument of heavy tariffs.  Some disruption is necessary and the U.S. should act in its interests, but at least some of these moves are unchecked and probably counterproductive.  It becomes about getting away with as much as you can to put down the other side, but this polarization and zero sum mentality is creating winners and losers through government intervention, the very opposite of free markets.  It’s a bit too reckless and experimental for most people’s liking, people who run small businesses or work in modest jobs without much job security on both sides of the border.  

[paxamericana]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Winning hearts and minds gets you further generally than the stick in most areas.  

I’m in favor of Trump’s troll Canada first policy and let Canada hang. When you Canucks are serious about accepting a trade deal we’ll send you our terms. Look at South Korea and Japan, they saw the writing on the wall and capitulated to Trump. Prideful Canucks haven’t learned that yet. Canada hasn’t realized that America really does have ALL the leverage.

And to be honest, I’m much more inclined to push for partial annexation of Canada, specifically just Alberta and Saskatchewan. The parts that America actually wants. The rest of the provinces are dominoes ready to fall.

So for you prideful Canucks who can’t read between the lines, your best bet of maintaining sovereignty is to just accept a humiliating trade deal. America really can wait you out.

Edited October 29, 2025 by paxamericana

[bush_cheney2004]

Although I understand the underlying sentiment of this topic vis-a-vis Trump and democracy, I agree with others who state the ideas are conflated, especially for the imposition of tariffs.  President Trump is doing exactly what Congress has empowered the Executive branch to do, and many presidents have done so with mixed results.

The short answer is that punitive tariffs can be effective in the short term to force negotiation and concessions.  For the U.S. and Canada, tariffs are hardly new and were a permanent part of the trade landscape for over 100 years.   Trump's strategy is to seek economic wins using tariffs as the "Big Stick".   He has a mixed bag of success and failure in this area.

At the risk of being pedantic, I would also point out that the United States of America is not a pure democracy...it is a constitutional republic with representative government.  (Canada is clearly not a pure democracy either, maybe even less so.)

 

[bush_cheney2004]

28 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

...So for you prideful Canucks who can’t read between the lines, your best bet of maintaining sovereignty is to just accept a humiliating trade deal. America really can wait you out.

 

It doesn't even have to be humiliating except for how much most of Canada loathes Trump.   Mulroney and Reagan were able to negotiate free trade (FTA) in the 80's, and full blown NAFTA 1.0 with Mexico followed in the 90's (think George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton).   

Brian Mulroney (RIP) would be attacked domestically for "selling out" to the Americans, when all he did was make the best deal possible at the time given Canada's  position. Mulroney negotiated carve outs for softwood lumber, dairy, and other Canadian must haves.

It is clear that Canada's personal and collective animus for President Trump and his baiting rhetoric remains a barrier to getting deals done.  Same thing happens in the U.S. government.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, paxamericana said:

I’m in favor of Trump’s troll Canada first policy and let Canada hang. When you Canucks are serious about accepting a trade deal we’ll send you our terms. Look at South Korea and Japan, they saw the writing on the wall and capitulated to Trump. Prideful Canucks haven’t learned that yet. Canada hasn’t realized that America really does have ALL the leverage.

And to be honest, I’m much more inclined to push for partial annexation of Canada, specifically just Alberta and Saskatchewan. The parts that America actually wants. The rest of the provinces are dominoes ready to fall.

So for you prideful Canucks who can’t read between the lines, your best bet of maintaining sovereignty is to just accept a humiliating trade deal. America really can wait you out.

That attitude is exactly why Canada can never be the 51st state.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

That attitude is exactly why Canada can never be the 51st state.  

 

Probably true, but it is not hard to find Canadian opinions still desiring to do so, usually in the context of east-west political battles in Canada.  I find amusement in this historical reality as present day Canadians express such umbrage at Trumps 51st state bating.

[Zeitgeist]

28 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Probably true, but it is not hard to find Canadian opinions still desiring to do so, usually in the context of east-west political battles in Canada.  I find amusement in this historical reality as present day Canadians express such umbrage at Trumps 51st state bating.

There’s always a side of me saying, F’ it, join the Yanks, the dark side…It’s really just about culture and self-determination, which are central to democracy.  Maybe at some point Canadians will choose some form of integration into America, but not under current conditions and rhetoric.

Edited October 30, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s really just about culture and self-determination

What culture!?? There's no such thing as a non-American. Canadian culture is a mental illness wrapped in bigoted xenophobe tendancy. You're North American and by virtue American, we live on the same continent. Canada was a British ploy to slow American expansionism on the continent. Just accept that Canada will eventually get absorbed. You're the one dragging this out and forcing all these pleasentries upon yourselves. 

Edited October 30, 2025 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, paxamericana said:

What culture!?? There's no such thing as a non-American. Canadian culture is a mental illness wrapped in bigoted xenophobe tendancy. You're North American and by virtue American, we live on the same continent. Canada was a British ploy to slow American expansionism on the continent. Just accept that Canada will eventually get absorbed. You're the one dragging this out and forcing all these pleasentries upon yourselves. 

Tell that to Quebec, Newfoundland, and the Territories. Canada’s a bit of a complicated pain in the ass.  The Scotts are a pain in the ass to the English.  I have English and Scottish background. Yet the Scotts are essential to Britain.  Quebec is essential to Canada.  Maybe Canada is essential to America.  Quebec is a nation but not a sovereign country.  Scotland is a country. Doesn’t make much difference really what the jurisdiction considers itself, but it’s up to the people in the jurisdiction to decide what they are. 

Edited October 30, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re right in many ways but both parties have pushed the limits of democracy.  The Dems went too far with lawfare.  Trump is trying to skirt checks and balances by using the dubious pretext of national security to push through the blunt instrument of heavy tariffs.  Some disruption is necessary and the U.S. should act in its interests, but at least some of these moves are unchecked and probably counterproductive.  It becomes about getting away with as much as you can to put down the other side, but this polarization and zero sum mentality is creating winners and losers through government intervention, the very opposite of free markets.  It’s a bit too reckless and experimental for most people’s liking, people who run small businesses or work in modest jobs without much job security on both sides of the border.  

You're forgetting something fundamental. They are able to do this because the voters allow it

The voters can change everything during the midterms. I believe it's about 16 more senate seats and five more house seats and they have enough to impeach trump if they wanted. And I mean impeach him all the way not just in the house.

The democrat voters allowed it when the democrats were in charge the republican voters are allowing it now that the republicans are in charge

While you look at it as a loss of democracy, it is actually an exercise in democracy. This is literally what the people voted for, and if they don't agree with it anymore they can change their minds and do something about it during the midterms.

But right now that looks like that's not going to happen. So how is this not the will of the people?

[bush_cheney2004]

41 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

...While you look at it as a loss of democracy, it is actually an exercise in democracy. This is literally what the people voted for, and if they don't agree with it anymore they can change their minds and do something about it during the midterms.

 

 

Indeed...this is what "democracy" looks like.

Trump's "sky is falling" critics had no problem with threats to democracy when they had the power in D.C.

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Indeed...this is what "democracy" looks like.

Trump's "sky is falling" critics had no problem with threats to democracy when they had the power in D.C.

Indeed, when the Democrats are back and they make the president even more powerful... The sky is falling people will then have different coloured hats

[paxamericana]

Canada insist on learning things the hard way. You should pay homage to the emperor for trade negotiations to continue.

[Deluge]

On 10/27/2025 at 9:47 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Basically we need to go back to high immigration and give up on America, enhance our domestic market and production, and strike deals with the BRICS.  The result will be that Canada will be more culturally aligned with the Middle East and Asia.  The US will be under similar demographic pressure.  

What we really need to do is implement a 1+1 program: Deport 1 of you + 1 illegal alien. 

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, Deluge said:

What we really need to do is implement a 1+1 program: Deport 1 of you + 1 illegal alien. 

My comment was sarcastic.  Greater alignment with Asia and the Middle East is terrible but likely to happen if America divides further from allies.  

[paxamericana]

18 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

My comment was sarcastic.  Greater alignment with Asia and the Middle East is terrible but likely to happen if America divides further from allies.  

You’re overreacting, America only voted to internationally bully Canada. Every other countries seem to be getting a trade deal and tariff reduction, even china. 

Edited October 30, 2025 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, paxamericana said:

You’re overreacting, America only voted to internationally bully Canada. Every other countries seem to be getting a trade deal and tariff reduction, even china. 

Canada and China are the countries most impacted by the tariffs in trade volume.  If the US is most interested screwing over the ally that buys more US goods than any other country, Canada, those are the ingredients for destroying an important relationship and sowing resentment that will last a long time.  It’s reckless and poor, but I don’t think it’s playing well with the majority of Americans.  Republicans in the Senate are voting with the Dems against the tariffs on Canada.  The Supreme Court should throw out the national security pretext for most of the tariffs.

If Congress had weighed in on the tariffs as should’ve happened, Trump wouldn’t have been able to impose all of this single-handedly.  The last 10% move on Canada was especially despotic and childish.  Thank God not every leader is a simpering suck up.  Ford is popular for standing up on this, and his ad was pretty bang on.  The truth hurts. Meanwhile South Korea is making crowns for Trump like he’s the birthday boy pretending to be king.   The U.S. Ambassador to Canada was downright rude.  We get it, Trump doesn’t like criticism even when it’s fair. Trump said he’d do the same thing Ford did if he was in the same position.  They’re not even that different.  Ford spoke well of Trump before the U.S. election.  I guess the people will decide what they support on both sides of the border.   

Edited October 30, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The U.S. Ambassador to Canada was downright rude.  

It’s our coup de grâce for burning down the Whitehouse. The Canadian original sin. Double or nothing Canucks.

Edited October 30, 2025 by paxamericana

[bush_cheney2004]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada and China are the countries most impacted by the tariffs in trade volume.  If the US is most interested screwing over the ally that buys more US goods than any other country, Canada, those are the ingredients for destroying an important relationship and sowing resentment that will last a long time....

 

 

OK...point taken...but is this really the superficial depth of an "ally", when so many other common interests exist ?   Canada has traded places with China several times for #1 U.S. trading partner, but no one considers China a U.S. ally.

The U.S. is Canada's closest ally by any measure, but the USA's closest ally is considered to be the United Kingdom, despite far less trade.

U.S. "democracy" has often imposed trade barriers on Canada without such political fanfare.   Trump just seems to antagonize Canadians with special aplomb.   Cross border spats and serious conflicts are hardly new.