U.S. Democracy In Decline

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

OK...point taken...but is this really the superficial depth of an "ally", when so many other common interests exist ?   Canada has traded places with China several times for #1 U.S. trading partner, but no one considers China a U.S. ally.

The U.S. is Canada's closest ally by any measure, but the USA's closest ally is considered to be the United Kingdom, despite far less trade.

U.S. "democracy" has often imposed trade barriers on Canada without such political fanfare.   Trump just seems to antagonize Canadians with special aplomb.   Cross border spats and serious conflicts are hardly new.

It seems that both Canada and the US claim the UK as closest ally, but the British head of state is also the Canadian head of state, so our relationship with Britain is very close by definition.  Just drive through any Canadian town and find the symbols everywhere, from King Street to ER’s and GR’s on the mailboxes and public buildings.  We’re not the ones who had a revolution.  The U.S. is the powerful self-absorbed friend that assumes you see everything his way, but it’s easier to let that slide for the sake of peace.  I’m sure Canada annoys to no end as well.  Frankly I’m irritated by all three countries, but I have the most connection to the place I grew up in, which is typical.  

[paxamericana]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

The U.S. is the powerful self-absorbed friend that assumes you see everything his way, but it’s easier to let that slide for the sake of peace.

Yeah yeah, you do realize we're all part of the Anglo western culture right? We really do see things the same way. I still can't differentiate small town alberta from pick a spot Montana. And before you say Windsor is that different from Detroit, Detroit in it's prime was the same as Windsor. The American view is not that vastly different from the Brits and Canada. 

Edited October 31, 2025 by paxamericana

[herbie]

Only going to allow 7500 refugees and give preference to white S Africans.

Doing to resume nuclear testing.

What a stupid, stupid man. And his sycophant nutless GOP thinks that nuke testing is a good idea. The oaf is intent on f*cking up the whole world.

Let's see how fast the forum's butt lickers jump up to tell us it's just f*cking brilliant;.

Edited October 31, 2025 by herbie

[paxamericana]

2 minutes ago, herbie said:

Let's see how fast the forum's butt lickers jump up to tell us it's just f*cking brilliant;.

It's brilliant. Nothing but the best from a stable genius and leader of the free world.

Edited October 31, 2025 by paxamericana

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

It seems that both Canada and the US claim the UK as closest ally, but the British head of state is also the Canadian head of state, so our relationship with Britain is very close by definition.  Just drive through any Canadian town and find the symbols everywhere, from King Street to ER’s and GR’s on the mailboxes and public buildings.  We’re not the ones who had a revolution.  

 

Correct, but all the more proof that the U.S. remains close to the U.K. despite such history and misgivings.   I admit to Yankee bias, but Canada seems to be far more reactive to such hiccups recently, particularly when dealing with Trumpian hype or a foul-mouthed ambassador.

I'm old enough to remember Lester Pearson's dust up with LBJ (comments about the Vietnam War made in the U.S.), but the alliance survived.

 

 

Quote

The U.S. is the powerful self-absorbed friend that assumes you see everything his way, but it’s easier to let that slide for the sake of peace.  I’m sure Canada annoys to no end as well.  Frankly I’m irritated by all three countries, but I have the most connection to the place I grew up in, which is typical.  

 

The objective and realistic stance I have taken over the years is hardly original, but nations states really have no friends...they have interests.  

Edited October 31, 2025 by bush_cheney2004
added content

[Zeitgeist]

It’s a bit silly how we try to distinguish ourselves from each other sometimes.  When I studied in Quebec I found it funny that Pepsi was more popular than Coke there because the Anglos drank Coke, yet when the Nordiques were battling the Canadiens in the playoffs, Toronto was suddenly favoured by the people around Quebec City. Meanwhile in parts of the world hockey is an unknown sport.

We need to think about our common interests in trade and feed the supply chains where the strengths are in supply and cost, as well as go where the markets are for sales. It’s always struck me as odd when the U.S. is imposing tariffs on aluminum and wood milled by American-owned companies that are simply producing their products where they can find/make them the cheapest.

While in extreme cases I see the validity of tariffs to prevent dumping or destruction of industries, generally I think government regulations and tariffs undermine productivity and get in the way of the most basic fundamentals of supply and demand capitalism and free markets.  I think that’s what Reagan was getting at, so while Trump has some truth on his side in terms of restoring fair trade, he also risks spoiling healthy economies and coming across as extortionate.  I prefer a shining city on a hill to an evil empire.

Edited October 31, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

14 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

While in extreme cases I see the validity of tariffs to prevent dumping or destruction of industries, generally I think government regulations and tariffs undermine productivity and get in the way of the most basic fundamentals of supply and demand capitalism and free markets.  I think that’s what Reagan was getting at, so while Trump has some truth on his side in terms of restoring fair trade, he also risks spoiling healthy economies and coming across as extortionate.  I prefer a shining city on a hill to an evil empire.

 

Well, part of Trump's fake news hissy fit about the edited Reagan spot from Ontario is that after the speech, Reagan imposed a 100% tariff on Japanese semiconductor dumping for violation of a previous agreement.

I agree that in a perfect world with perfect markets, tariffs are counterproductive, but Trump, like many presidents before him, is faced with international markets heavily influenced by existing protectionism, even between allies.

Long before Trump, Canada and the U.S. have sparred over trade advantages and barriers, from softwood lumber to Chinese steel dumping via Mexico/Canada.  Trump's approach to tariffs is purposely inflammatory and meant to drive both parties to negotiating new agreements quickly.

Canada grew complacent over the years with assumptions about always having access to the huge market across the border.  This was understandable, but the wake-up call has arrived.

Edited November 1, 2025 by bush_cheney2004

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Well, part of Trump's fake news hissy fit about the edited Reagan spot from Ontario is that after the speech, Reagan imposed a 100% tariff on Japanese semiconductor dumping for violation of a previous agreement.

I agree that in a perfect world with perfect markets, tariffs are counterproductive, but Trump, like many presidents before him, is faced with international markets heavily influenced by existing protectionism, even between allies.

Long before Trump, Canada and the U.S. have sparred over trade advantages and barriers, from softwood lumber to Chinese steel dumping via Mexico/Canada.  Trump's approach to tariffs is purposely inflammatory and meant to drive both parties to negotiating new agreements quickly.

Canada grew complacent over the years with assumptions about always having access to the huge market across the border.  This was understandable, but the wake-up call has arrived.

In the past Canada and America have always sat down and respected each other and talk things out. Reagan was absolutely against tariffs whenever humanly possible and only impose them in cases of great need

Trump's actions by his own admission is basically a war on Canada. On top of it all he disrespects our sovereignty and attacks us as people. He suggests that we don't really have a right to see exist

This is nothing like has ever happened before, shy of the time when we had to cross the border and burn your white house down.

The relationship will not be easily repaired. You people have demonstrated that your word means nothing to you and that you can't be trusted. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

Trump's actions by his own admission is basically a war on Canada. On top of it all he disrespects our sovereignty and attacks us as people. He suggests that we don't really have a right to see exist

This is nothing like has ever happened before, shy of the time when we had to cross the border and burn your white house down.

 

 

Canada is not special in this regard...other nations have faced the same Trumpian "disrespect" without overreacting.   Canada survived Trump's first term and tariffs, and Trump will be gone in three years or so.

As for never happening before, history says otherwise. 

 

Quote

The relationship will not be easily repaired. You people have demonstrated that your word means nothing to you and that you can't be trusted. 

 

The relationship is the same, just stripped bare for all to see the naked political and economic irritations going back generations, all existing before President Trump.  Just add Trump's to a very long list.

[paxamericana]

6 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada grew complacent over the years with assumptions about always having access to the huge market across the border.  This was understandable, but the wake-up call has arrived.

The original sin. 
 

6 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The relationship will not be easily repaired. You people have demonstrated that your word means nothing to you and that you can't be trusted. 

Mhmmmmm so Canada is claiming spousal abuse yet never signed the marriage certificate. You wanted sovereignty, that’s what you get. There are no friends in geopolitics , only interest. So until such time that Canadians petition for Statehood, they’re subject to American presidential rule. The irony here is rich.

[John Stone]

On 10/27/2025 at 11:51 AM, gatomontes99 said:

Crime down

Trade is trending on our favor

Gas prices are down

Middle East peace (for now)

8 wars/conflicts solved

Transmania on the decline

Drug abuse on the decline

Drug runners dying

Biden Banana Republic pawns getting investigated

Government spending down

Waste, fraud and abuse being eliminated

The border is secure 

Illegals being sent home

Voter ID 

Obama pawns being investigated for their real election interference 

And y'all want to say democracy is on the decline? No. The Republic is on the rise and our elections are becoming more secure than ever. Yes, paper ballots is a good thing. Yes, voter ID is a good thing. 

What they really mean, when they say democracy is in trouble, is that they don't get to dictate their will any more so they are upset. That is all it means. 

 

historically all democracies eventually commit suicide. 

[CdnFox]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada is not special in this regard...other nations have faced the same Trumpian "disrespect" without overreacting.   Canada survived Trump's first term and tariffs, and Trump will be gone in three years or so.

If a stranger insults you it's annoying, but generally it's no big deal. If your brother insults you it's a little different

Make no mistake. This is not the same as it is with other countries. Canada will not forgive this easily.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

If a stranger insults you it's annoying, but generally it's no big deal. If your brother insults you it's a little different

Make no mistake. This is not the same as it is with other countries. Canada will not forgive this easily.

 

Okay, but it really doesn't matter to the U.S. so much.  Canada can pitch a fit in response to Trump's antics, but because of the relationship fundamentals, little will change.

I was watching a CBC interview with former PM Jean Cretien this morning, and he still gets it.   History is full of Canada-US spats, some very serious, but necessity on both sides preserves the relationship.   Separate the very different political personalities (e.g. Clinton vs. Bush #2),  and the same cross border elements remain.  This will not change no matter how disgruntled Canadians become.

Democracy does not require acquiescence by either party, and conflicts are actually a feature, not a bug.   Canada must compete, just like the United States. 

"There is no crying in baseball."  (Go Jays !)

[paxamericana]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Democracy does not require acquiescence by either party, and conflicts are actually a feature, not a bug.   Canada must compete, just like the United States. 

Canada want special treatment like a state but unwilling to give up sovereignty.

[Zeitgeist]

27 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Canada want special treatment like a state but unwilling to give up sovereignty.

I don’t think the issue is so much about sovereignty, maybe to some.  It’s more about respect for the history and interests of the people impacted.  If Trump never said 51st state but instead talked about a mutually beneficial union supported by the people on both sides of the border, it might surprise you how much Canadians would be willing to compromise. It’s the coercive rhetoric that has upset people, as well as the harsh tariffs that haven’t been debated or supported in Congress.  No broad consensus from economists supports these moves.  It’s like grandpa showed up and started aiming torpedoes at “the Japs”, forgetting that the war was won and the countries are now allies.

It is a problem for your democracy because no individuals or groups with any authority are able to get gramps to put his clothes on before leaving the house.  If it was as small potatoes as giving gramps a crown to make him feel special, we could all play along for 5 minutes and get on with our jobs and making ends meet, but gramps is loaded and careening down the beach in his ‘57 Chevy taking out all the holiday makers.  No one seems to be able to pull him over and even issue a ticket.  I wonder by the end of this 4 year play date how much mess will have to be cleaned up, how many businesses will be damaged or bankrupted, jobs lost…

You can’t run a big powerful country based on how one guy feels in the moment, especially when his ego is so fragile and capricious.

Canada is impacted for sure, but the takeaway for Canadians is to find alternatives to the U.S. wherever possible because we don’t know what gramps is going to do next, and the Americans are letting him have at it.

Edited November 1, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is impacted for sure, but the takeaway for Canadians is to find alternatives to the U.S. wherever possible because we don’t know what gramps is going to do next and the Americans are letting him have at it.

There's no excuse for anyone on the planet not having done so decades ago. We've know for sometime now what Americans are capable of producing and siccing on us.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

There's no excuse for anyone on the planet not having done so decades ago. We've know for sometime now what Americans are capable of producing and siccing on us.

I hoped Trump would be more measured and unifying than in his first term, but it’s even more over the top than term one because he put yes people in charge of the departments and purged everyone else.  Yes we should know the Yanks can go this way.  It’s too bad that there’s no middle ground down there between Weekend at Bernie’s and turning the place upside down.

It’s not too late to turn things around.  Trump could be in a good mood tomorrow. Place your bets.  Casino capitalism.  

Edited November 1, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Okay, but it really doesn't matter to the U.S. so much.  Canada can pitch a fit in response to Trump's antics, but because of the relationship fundamentals, little will change.

It's already changing. Many American states have noted that they are suffering financially as a result. Canada will develop closer ties to people that America would really rather we didn't. Canada won't be there for America as we have been in the past when you needed us, and while it might not seem like that happens very often the fact of the matter is it has.

You think it won't matter but the reality is it does matter. One of the reasons America has been able to grow to be the power it is because it has secure borders and secure access to materials that it desperately needs to the north. That can very easily change.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s not too late to turn things around.  Trump could be in a good mood tomorrow. Place your bets.  Casino capitalism.  

Late stage capitalism is more like it.

Probably late stage democracy too.

[paxamericana]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is impacted for sure, but the takeaway for Canadians is to find alternatives to the U.S. wherever possible because we don’t know what gramps is going to do next, and the Americans are letting him have at it.

It’s as Orange Gramps states, reindustrialization of America. 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

57 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

...You think it won't matter but the reality is it does matter. One of the reasons America has been able to grow to be the power it is because it has secure borders and secure access to materials that it desperately needs to the north. That can very easily change.

 

It could, but it won't.  Canada has very predictable behaviours that prioritize stability over risk taking, the very opposite of the U.S.   This is one of the fundamental differences between the two nations, going back to their very beginnings (See

	Alexis de Tocqueville "Democracy in America".)

American presidents understand this and act accordingly.

During the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, Canada's military leaders defied Diefenbaker and went on alert with the Americans.  In several other conflicts, Canada pretended to oppose American policy for public consumption while being very complicit otherwise.  This is the formula that works in Canada...false bravado for the masses, compliance behind the scenes.

This is what Canada has done, is doing, and will do going forward, if only for pragmatic reasons.   

Edited November 2, 2025 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It could, but it won't.  Canada has very predictable behaviours that prioritize stability over risk taking, the very opposite of the U.S.   This is one of the fundamental differences between the two nations, going back to their very beginnings (See

	Alexis de Tocqueville "Democracy in America".)

American presidents understand this and act accordingly.

During the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, Canada's military leaders defied Diefenbaker and went on alert with the Americans.  In several other conflicts, Canada pretended to oppose American policy for public consumption while being very complicit otherwise.  This is the formula that works in Canada...false bravado for the masses, compliance behind the scenes.

This is what Canada has done, is doing, and will do going forward, if only for pragmatic reasons.   

I agree, though that’s partly because the public doesn’t have all the information.  Politicians of all stripes say things for public perception that they have no intention of implementing.  “Read my lips, ‘No new taxes.’” Trump is a bit different that way.  He’ll follow through on what he says and add some surprises.  Pierre Trudeau would brashly change his mind and chuck out everything he promised without batting an eyelash: “Circumstances have changed.”

Edited November 2, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

It could, but it won't.  Canada has very predictable behaviours that prioritize stability over risk taking, the very opposite of the U.S.   This is one of the fundamental differences between the two nations, going back to their very beginnings (See

Eastern Canada sure. Not western Canada. And western Canada is growing considerably faster than Eastern Canada. And they have the longest memories.

America isn't going to collapse or anything as a result. But it will be weaker. This is especially true seeing as most of the harm it's doing right now is in the east which just puts more power in the west

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Eastern Canada sure. Not western Canada. And western Canada is growing considerably faster than Eastern Canada. And they have the longest memories.

 

The US has already seen this movie with Quebec in 1990's, Clarity Act, yada yada yada.    Canada has yet to actually do anything for real secession by a province.

 

Quote

America isn't going to collapse or anything as a result. But it will be weaker. This is especially true seeing as most of the harm it's doing right now is in the east which just puts more power in the west

 

Not a concern until Canada actually decides and acts to build more east-west infrastructure and remove barriers between provinces.  And then there is the need for so much foreign capital investment, much of it American.

Trump may insult and anger Canadians, but what will they actually do about it besides complain ?    The Americans are the same as before Trump and after Trump.  

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The US has already seen this movie with Quebec in 1990's, Clarity Act, yada yada yada.    Canada has yet to actually do anything for real secession by a province.

Well first off i take it you missed the two referendum   LOL  ANd they're looking at a third . I don't think you know much about canada. 

Secondly, i'm not talking about separation. The two halfs of canada are deeply divided and always have been. There's a long history there. They are not the same. Imagine all of the US was California and Texas.  

But thanks to the efforts of the east. western canada is much smaller population wise and has much less political power. 

But - it's catching up. 

There was a time when the west only really mattered as a tie breaker. IF the two main parties were neck and neck in the east, the west might tip one or another over the edge. 

But now - it's hard to get a majority gov't without very strong support in the west. 

And in the not to distant future the west may well hit parity. And canada may be driven by those of us who live west of ontario. 

Not that i think  the east is going to be happy with you. 

America is going to become a smaller, weaker less powerful nation. Canada and others will find new markets and ways of doing business. We''ll take your money but i doubt the relationship will ever be the same and america will be worse for it,