The vast majority of firearm's deaths in the U.S. are committed by Americans, not undocumented migrants.

[gatomontes99]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

So obviously they are committed by illegals. Talk about leaps of faith, you take the cake.

I didn't say that. I implied that at least some of those crimes are committed by illegal aliens. Saying the vast majority of crimes are committed by citizens because there is an absence of evidence collected is just flatly wrong and ignorant. 

[blackbird]

22 hours ago, CDN1 said:

nd generation immigrants commit crimes at similar/higher rates. Non-Whites will commit more crimes. They account for over 90% of the gun crime in pretty much every major American city.

Black Americans account for nearly 65% of all gun homicides at 13% of the population. 

You are drifting off this thread.  This is about undocumented migrants in the U.S.  and the articles I posted say they commit crimes at a lower rate than U.S. citizens.  Why try to divert and make the subject blurry or unclear?   It proves nothing.

[User]

24 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You are drifting off this thread.  This is about undocumented migrants in the U.S.  and the articles I posted say they commit crimes at a lower rate than U.S. citizens.  Why try to divert and make the subject blurry or unclear?   It proves nothing.

Why did you run away from the last thread you started on this subject where you also ignored the evidence and arguments made refuting this position of yours?

[Shady]

26 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You are drifting off this thread.  This is about undocumented migrants in the U.S.  and the articles I posted say they commit crimes at a lower rate than U.S. citizens.  Why try to divert and make the subject blurry or unclear?   It proves nothing.

But it's irrelevant at what rates they commit crimes.  They have no right to be in the United States, especially if they entered illegally. 

[Deluge]

17 hours ago, blackbird said:

And the vast majority of gun crimes are committed by regular citizens.  What do you think about the widespread possession of handguns and assault rifles and the 17,900 homicides a year by individuals who have these guns?  What about the tens of thousands of suicides by guns?

What about the a$$holes advocating for MORE crime through illegal immigration? Don't we have enough crime in this country already? The answer is yes, so we continue deporting illegal aliens so that they don't increase our crime rates.  

[CdnFox]

On 8/10/2025 at 9:12 AM, blackbird said:

The truth is the vast majority of firearm's deaths in the U.S. are committed by Americans, not undocumented migrants.

There are over 48,000 firearms deaths a year.

58% of gun deaths are suicides and 38% are homicides.   in 2023 there were 17,900 homicides.

"Two studies found that undocumented immigrants in Texas commit homicide at significantly lower rates than their U.S.-born counterparts."

Fact Check: No evidence 4,000 people are killed yearly by undocumented immigrants | Reuters

quote

Key Stats & Facts About Illegal Immigration and Crime in the US 2025

Crime Statistic	Value	Source
Violent Crime Convictions	469	CBP Criminal Database
Homicide/Manslaughter Cases	15	Border Patrol Statistics
Sexual Offense Convictions	89	Federal Criminal Records
Assault/Domestic Violence	469	CBP Data
Property Crime Convictions	278	Border Patrol Database
Burglary Convictions	93	Federal Crime Data

So the number of homicides in the U.S. in 2023 was 17,900 and the number of homicide/manslaughter cases according to the above chart done by illegal migrants was 15 in 2025. This was border patrol statistics.  I am not sure what location that covers.  The number for the whole country must be higher but I could not find the actual statistics for the whole country other than one website says it is less than 4,000.  This shows the absurdity of DHS honouring the victims of illegal aliens and of Deluge posting such a thing.   What about honouring the victims of the 17,900 murdered mainly by Americans in 2023?

If you are concerned about homicide victims and murders, do something about the 48,000 gun deaths a year which included 17,900 homicides.  The great majority were done by regular Americans.  

What do you expect when every person in the country is allowed to have assault rifles or carry handguns?  There are hundreds of millions of guns in private hands in America.  Of course many of them are going to use them.  Many people are mentally disturbed and should not be allowed to own a gun.  If you really cared about criminals committing murder and really cared about the victims, your country would do something about the hundreds of millions of guns in people's hands.  That is absolute madness.

So you're saying well over a thousand deaths and violent crimes could have been prevented if the undocumented aliens weren't here?

That's a lot of deaths and violent crime. Sounds like they'd be better off without those guys

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, Shady said:

  They have no right to be in the United States, especially if they entered illegally. 

 We've heard that line countless times on here.   Refugees do in fact have a right to be in the U.S.

The fact is people who are in desperate need because of threats to their lives, gang threats of violence, and extreme poverty have a moral right to move to a place of safety.  That is also part of the U.N. conventions on refugees.  I posted that a number of times on threads on here.  The U.S. signed the 1967 protocols.

Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees | OHCHR

 

[blackbird]

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

So you're saying well over a thousand deaths and violent crimes could have been prevented if the undocumented aliens weren't here?

That's a lot of deaths and violent crime. Sounds like they'd be better off without those guys

That's not how the world works.  There is crime in every country in the world.  It has to be dealt with.

The main point is the MAGA types are lying about who all the criminals are.  It is not the undocumented migrants.  The rate of crime is higher with U.S. citizens than it is with migrants.  That is the point.  Many MAGA types are racist much like the era of slavery in the U.S. when blacks were not considered as humans.  Now everything must be blamed on the undocumented migrants or refugees.

Many western countries take in refugees and asylum seekers because it is the humane thing to do and it is agreed to be done in the U.N. 1967 protocols.

The U.S. signed onto the 1967 U.N. protocols on refugees and is obligated to it.

Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees | OHCHR

Edited August 11, 2025 by blackbird

[CdnFox]

Just now, blackbird said:

That's not how the world works.  There is crime in every country in the world.  It has to be dealt with.  If you want to deport criminals, start with all the American murderers and gang members.  Why not send them to a country that will take them and pay the country.  It would save all that money spent on keeping them in prison in the U.S.

That would reduce crime too.

The U.S. signed onto the 1967 U.N. protocols on refugees and is obligated to it.

Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees | OHCHR

No, how the world works is if you're not allowed in a country you get thrown out. 

IF they had been thrown out there'd be thosuands fewer deaths and violent crimes. 

So your argument seems to be that we should throw them out. 

I don't think you thought this all the way through. 

[Shady]

7 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 We've heard that line countless times on here.   Refugees do in fact have a right to be in the U.S.

The fact is people who are in desperate need because of threats to their lives, gang threats of violence, and extreme poverty have a moral right to move to a place of safety.  That is also part of the U.N. conventions on refugees.  I posted that a number of times on threads on here.  The U.S. signed the 1967 protocols.

Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees | OHCHR

 

But all undocumented migrants aren't refugees.  Regardless, at the end of the day, countries ultimately have the sovereignty to decide who comes in and stays in their country, and 90% of refugee claims are found to be without merit. 

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, Shady said:

90% of refugee claims are found to be without merit. 

Did you pull that figure out of thin air?  

Also, it depends who is defining who is a refugee and whether their claim is valid.

If an administration directs their staff to meet a quota and not to take any more, then of course the definition of who is eligible will be made much stricter and more will not be admitted.  But that doesn't meet the protocols which were agreed on.  The definition must be decided by international tribunals.  In fact the protocols say the International Court of Justice has the final say.  How many cases were referred to the ICJ by the U.S.?

Edited August 11, 2025 by blackbird

[User]

51 minutes ago, Shady said:

But it's irrelevant at what rates they commit crimes.  They have no right to be in the United States, especially if they entered illegally. 

Its irrelevant because it is total NET more crime. 

Every single DUI that killed a family in a minivan, daughter murdered, daughter raped, is all something that should not and would not have happened if we had deported those illegal immigrants. 

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Try answering it honestly yourself.

I did enjoy that ridiculous scenario.

The premise seems to be that crimes done by foreigners are terrifying.  This National inability to analyze things Dispassionately might be behind the fact that the USA can't do anything about crime despite being constantly enraged about it.

...

 

[User]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I did enjoy that ridiculous scenario.

The premise seems to be that crimes done by foreigners are terrifying.  This National inability to analyze things Dispassionately might be behind the fact that the USA can't do anything about crime despite being constantly enraged about it.

...

 

Nothing ridiculous about it. 

Laken Riley, murdered by an illegal immigrant

You folks want to ignore this and not care, think it is ridiculous?

"Riley had sustained significant blunt force trauma to her head, including eight injuries to the left side of her skull and an injury just above her right temple, Dr. Michelle DiMarco, who conducted her autopsy, testified on Tuesday. One of the injuries was significant enough that it caused brain bleeding and could have been fatal, she said."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/laken-riley-case-murder-trial-texts/story?id=116009547

[Shady]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I did enjoy that ridiculous scenario.

The premise seems to be that crimes done by foreigners are terrifying.

...

 

No.  Crime done by people that shouldn't be in the country to do the crime is unnecessary, and doesn't need to be tolerated.

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Shady said:

But it's irrelevant at what rates they commit crimes.  They have no right to be in the United States, especially if they entered illegally. 

Then stop bringing crime rates up. You are enraged about it out of one side of your mouth and say it is irrelevant out of the other. 

[blackbird]

35 minutes ago, User said:

Its irrelevant because it is total NET more crime. 

Every single DUI that killed a family in a minivan, daughter murdered, daughter raped, is all something that should not and would not have happened if we had deported those illegal immigrants. 

 

Why not deport U.S. criminals who commit most of the crimes?  Save a lot of money in maintaining them in prisons.

[User]

13 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Why not deport U.S. criminals who commit most of the crimes?  Save a lot of money in maintaining them in prisons.

So... you don't want to deport illegal immigrants, let alone if they are also caught breaking other laws... but you do want to deport US Citizens?

For starters, there is no lawful method to deport a US Citizen... because they are US Citizens. 

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

34 minutes ago, User said:

Nothing ridiculous about it. 

Laken Riley, murdered by an illegal immigrant

You folks want to ignore this and not care, think it is ridiculous?

"Riley had sustained significant blunt force trauma to her head, including eight injuries to the left side of her skull and an injury just above her right temple, Dr. Michelle DiMarco, who conducted her autopsy, testified on Tuesday. One of the injuries was significant enough that it caused brain bleeding and could have been fatal, she said."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/laken-riley-case-murder-trial-texts/story?id=116009547

I was called immoral by one of your teammates. Well I think it's immoral to bring up singular crimes as a rationale for mistreating large numbers of minority groups. 

Don't post your sad stories to me. I'm not moved by your propaganda, even if you truly are.

You elected a despot with no principles. There's your morality. Now go away.

 

[User]

28 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Then stop bringing crime rates up. You are enraged about it out of one side of your mouth and say it is irrelevant out of the other. 

No, you are the ones playing this game of "rates" while ignoring total numbers. 

It is very relevant and not speaking out of both sides of our mouths to make this clear distinction. 

[User]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

I was called immoral by one of your teammates. Well I think it's immoral to bring up singular crimes as a rationale for mistreating large numbers of minority groups. 

Mistreating... how?

Enforcing immigration laws and deporting people here that are not here lawfully is not "mistreating" them. 

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Don't post your sad stories to me. I'm not moved by your propaganda, even if you truly are.

You tried to act like these kinds of stories were ridiculous. I proved otherwise. 

Clearly you don't give a crap about these people who are raped, murdered, or killed or victims of other violent crimes. Clearly. 

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

You elected a despot with no principles. There's your morality. Now go away.

So, in your twisted logic of an argument, Trump is bad, so its totally cool to rape, murder, and harm people when you are in America illegally to begin with. 

 

[Aristides]

2 minutes ago, User said:

No, you are the ones playing this game of "rates" while ignoring total numbers. 

It is very relevant and not speaking out of both sides of our mouths to make this clear distinction. 

Blackbird provided the numbers. I’m certainly not saying illegals have a right to remain in the country, clearly they don’t, but if there are millions as you say, then their crime rate is quite low

[CDN1]

31 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Why not deport U.S. criminals who commit most of the crimes?  Save a lot of money in maintaining them in prisons.

Yeah, I'm sure that's playing well when they start deporting Black citizens to Africa.

[Nationalist]

Ahhh...I knew it would happen.

17 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I was called immoral by one of your teammates. Well I think it's immoral to bring up singular crimes as a rationale for mistreating large numbers of minority groups. 

Don't post your sad stories to me. I'm not moved by your propaganda, even if you truly are.

You elected a despot with no principles. There's your morality. Now go away.

Here's you version of "morality" Mike. You dont care as long as it's not your daughter being raped and murdered. And then...total TDS exposure...

21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You elected a despot with no principles. There's your morality. Now go away.

Mike...you and @Aristides are nothing but hypocritical liars. I'll expect neither of you to bring up morality ever again.

[gatomontes99]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The main point is the MAGA types are lying about who all the criminals are.  It is not the undocumented migrants.

You just posted completely invalid data and declared that it means your fantasy is real. I don't think it's a valid argument for you to then declare the other side must be wrong. Your entire thesis is based on assumptions that are accompanied by invalid data. Aka, you lied.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The rate of crime is higher with U.S. citizens than it is with migrants.  That is the point.

But that isn't proven or even true. Texas does it's best to determine immigration status and this is what their stats show:

Texas Scorecard:

“Illegal immigrants in Texas appear to be convicted of crimes such as homicide, sexual assault, and kidnapping at higher rates than the state average,” says CIS. “By contrast, they appear to be convicted at lower rates for crimes such as robbery and drugs.”

However, CIS says a caveat to the “lower rates for crimes such as robbery and drugs,” is that lesser offenses carry shorter prison sentences and are lower priority for determining immigration status and deportation.“

The longer people with unknown status are in custody, the more likely it is that Texas will correctly ascertain their immigration status,” the report states.

Your stats are a lie. You are a liar. Just stop already.