Why Are We Doing This U.S. Vs. Canada Thing?

[Zeitgeist]

During my time off this summer I looked at the price of property and home building in the Greater Toronto Area and the southern half of Ontario.  I reached a very disturbing conclusion: There are no affordable real estate investments to be made, not even for people with good incomes and money to invest.  I could not find a single building lot for a home less than 90 minutes from Toronto for less than $200,000.  What’s more, after looking into multiple prefab and on-site build options, I couldn’t find a way to build a home with two or more bedrooms to code on such a land parcel for less than about $275,000.

Essentially, even if you’re willing to live a two hour drive from the city, you will struggle to find a house, apart from a one bedroom or studio condo (with maintenance fees), for less than half a million dollars.

This means that for any of my kids to buy their first home, they will need a $100,000 down payment to avoid additional mortgage fees.

Ontario, or at least the part of it with jobs, is unaffordable. Over one third of Canada lives in Ontario.  The cost of living in BC is even worse and the rest of the country isn’t much better.

Yet if I look at property in New York State, less than an hour’s drive from my home, there are countless properties with decent sized single detached homes on them for about 30% less, even after factoring in exchange rates.

So we have a very clear problem that should be obvious to solve: Too much demand in Canada and not enough demand in the states bordering Canada has caused a huge divergence in home prices that could be easily resolved if people could live and work in either country. Basically our nationalism is holding us back economically.

Trump wasn’t wrong when he pointed out the ridiculousness of our border and duplication of bureaucracy.  The citizens of both countries would be better off if they could enjoy the investment and employment opportunities of both countries.

Sadly, we likely can’t have an earnest discussion about the possibilities of a tariff free economic union because of the coercive rhetoric from the south and the nationalistic backlash from the north.

Edited August 7, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[gatomontes99]

It is all by design. First, you over regulate. When over regulation leads to supply shortages and higher costs, you subsidize. If you subsidize, then you can control who can do what. 

[Zeitgeist]

15 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

It is all by design. First, you over regulate. When over regulation leads to supply shortages and higher costs, you subsidize. If you subsidize, then you can control who can do what. 

I basically agree. The problem is that our government and government-funded media and public education systems in Canada have taught us to fear the U.S. and given Canadians a mythology that makes us feel like we’re better than Americans by virtue of our Canadianness, but our cost of living is higher in some key areas like housing, yet our incomes are lower on average.  Only some of this has to do with the exchange rate and public mandate for a bigger social safety net.  Some of it is simply our bureaucracy and smaller economy, issues that could be eliminated in an economic union.  

[TreeBeard]

Real estate investors are part of the problem as to why real estate isn’t affordable.  

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Real estate investors are part of the problem as to why real estate isn’t affordable.  

If average workers can’t invest in real estate, you can’t have upward mobility.  It’s why parts of Europe have stagnant economies: high regulation and taxation, high youth unemployment rates… You want investment to flow into the economy.

High immigration has also certainly juiced the housing market in Canada.

A healthy economy should have ample supply of different types of housing and properties at a variety of prices accessible to different income levels.

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

During my time off this summer I looked at the price of property and home building in the Greater Toronto Area and the southern half of Ontario.  I reached a very disturbing conclusion: There are no affordable real estate investments to be made, not even for people with good incomes and money to invest.  I could not find a single building lot for a home less than 90 minutes from Toronto for less than $200,000.  What’s more, after looking into multiple prefab and on-site build options, I couldn’t find a way to build a home with two or more bedrooms to code on such a land parcel for less than about $275,000.

Essentially, even if you’re willing to live a two hour drive from the city, you will struggle to find a house, apart from a one bedroom or studio condo (with maintenance fees), for less than half a million dollars.

This means that for any of my kids to buy their first home, they will need a $100,000 down payment to avoid additional mortgage fees.

Ontario, or at least the part of it with jobs, is unaffordable. Over one third of Canada lives in Ontario.  The cost of living in BC is even worse and the rest of the country isn’t much better.

Yet if I look at property in New York State, less than an hour’s drive from my home, there are countless properties with decent sized single detached homes on them for about 30% less, even after factoring in exchange rates.

So we have a very clear problem that should be obvious to solve: Too much demand in Canada and not enough demand in the states bordering Canada has caused a huge divergence in home prices that could be easily resolved if people could live and work in either country. Basically our nationalism is holding us back economically.

Trump wasn’t wrong when he pointed out the ridiculousness of our border and duplication of bureaucracy.  The citizens of both countries would be better off if they could enjoy the investment and employment opportunities of both countries.

Sadly, we likely can’t have an earnest discussion about the possibilities of a tariff free economic union because of the coercive rhetoric from the south and the nationalistic backlash from the north.

We overregulate EVERYTHING. At all levels. It isn't just a federal thing. Municipal governments have massive bureaucracies and an enormous amount of regulations governing building anything, even a shed or garage. A couple I know renovated a triplex they'd bought and the amount of forms and inspections they had to endure was unreal. No, you can't just have _A_ inspector. You need a bunch of separate inspections. And not just at the end, but as you go along. 

Build something new on a new plot? God help you. Not only are builders restricted in where and what they can build (greenbelts are horrible), but they have to endure years of forms, hearings and committees AFTER they've bought the land, leaving it essentially a useless drain on funds all the while. It can take ten years for a housing development to finally be approved. And the costs the municipality and province apply to each home are unreal. Land transfer fees, development charges and taxes add close to $300k to the price of every new house built in major Ontario cities. It's twice that in BC.

[Zeitgeist]

4 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

We overregulate EVERYTHING. At all levels. It isn't just a federal thing. Municipal governments have massive bureaucracies and an enormous amount of regulations governing building anything, even a shed or garage. A couple I know renovated a triplex they'd bought and the amount of forms and inspections they had to endure was unreal. No, you can't just have _A_ inspector. You need a bunch of separate inspections. And not just at the end, but as you go along. 

Build something new on a new plot? God help you. Not only are builders restricted in where and what they can build (greenbelts are horrible), but they have to endure years of forms, hearings and committees AFTER they've bought the land, leaving it essentially a useless drain on funds all the while. It can take ten years for a housing development to finally be approved. And the costs the municipality and province apply to each home are unreal. Land transfer fees, development charges and taxes add close to $300k to the price of every new house built in major Ontario cities. It's twice that in BC.

Yup it’s awful.  Those fees should be illegal.  Who are they serving?  Ford can’t even build roads and highways because the courts have decided that bike lanes are constitutionally protected. WTF?!!!

[herbie]

 

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

If average workers can’t invest in real estate, you can’t have upward mobility.

I’m not denying people made a killing in real estate investments, however, that bubble is now bursting.  Many did great for 3 decades.  More recent investors are going to lose their shirts.  Hopefully, they lose them very badly because it will mean an increase in more affordable housing, which is more important than a few investors making large profits. 
 

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

A healthy economy should have ample supply of different types of housing and properties at a variety of prices accessible to different income levels.

Investors need their property values to grow if they want to see a return. 

Part of the problem being that these investors have been driving up the costs of real estate.  Happily!  

Did you think there was no end to the increases in property values?   Did the investor class think they could bank on perpetual growth and still have “a variety of prices accessible to different income levels”? 

[Moonlight Graham]

This is part of the housing market (supply and demand).   if the GTA becomes unaffordable then people will be forced to move to other cities in Canada, which is a good thing, especially considering that population growth is coming from immigration.   All immigration going to Vancouver or Toronto while other cities and small towns shrivel and die would be bad for Canada.

What is killing housing in this country is people buying up many homes for investment properties and not living in them.  This must be stopped, but politicians won't do it because many have their own investments and they don't want to PO homeowners and investors.   But its one of the few ways you can reduce housing costs.

We're building a 2-tier country of rich homeowners and the rest who are renters of homes.   And the young who do buy a home have their standard of living destroyed for their working careers just paying their mortgage, not to mention all the savings their parents have earned is going into helping them buying their home.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

I’m not denying people made a killing in real estate investments, however, that bubble is now bursting.  Many did great for 3 decades.  More recent investors are going to lose their shirts.  Hopefully, they lose them very badly because it will mean an increase in more affordable housing, which is more important than a few investors making large profits. 
 

Investors need their property values to grow if they want to see a return. 

Part of the problem being that these investors have been driving up the costs of real estate.  Happily!  

Did you think there was no end to the increases in property values?   Did the investor class think they could bank on perpetual growth and still have “a variety of prices accessible to different income levels”? 

If you think I don’t support real estate prices coming down, that’s not the case.  I think they should come down significantly 

[paxamericana]

7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The citizens of both countries would be better off if they could enjoy the investment and employment opportunities of both countries.

"From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Canucks will renew a move to a more perfect Union. Canada shall be made the 51st."

Quote

an earnest discussion about the possibilities of a tariff free economic union

We're not like the EU, we don't have cultural differences, there is no need for a separate National government. The state(s) do have considerable power as well. Anything not given to the federal government is the domain of state. Feel free to convince me why we would want to do a dating phase instead of getting in bed together?

Edited August 8, 2025 by paxamericana

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

If you think I don’t support real estate prices coming down, that’s not the case.  I think they should come down significantly 

It’s ironic to be a real estate investor complaining about real estate prices. 

[Zeitgeist]

37 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

It’s ironic to be a real estate investor complaining about real estate prices. 

I referenced my kids buying homes, but being able to invest and build is essential for any country’s prosperity. Do you propose instead that people should sit idle and accept their lot once they have a place to live, no matter how capable and productive they are? No thanks. 

Edited August 8, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

50 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

"From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Canucks will renew a move to a more perfect Union. Canada shall be made the 51st."

We're not like the EU, we don't have cultural differences, there is no need for a separate National government. The state(s) do have considerable power as well. Anything not given to the federal government is the domain of state. Feel free to convince me why we would want to do a dating phase instead of getting in bed together?

Okay, points for the Tolkien reference but I'm afraid you're entirely wrong and we're more likely to go with the EU

[paxamericana]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

more likely to go with the EU

You are already trading with the EU. Their demographic is just as bad as Canada. They export more to Canada than they buy. This doesn’t solve Canada problem of where to sell to. Your trade numbers will suffer this year since tariffs are in effect and the finish product have no where to go. Everyone uses Mexico and Canada as a backdoor to sell into America. This is the real reason for Trump tariffs. Goods actually made in Canada are majority USMCA compliant. So this hurts the small businesses that sells to America from overseas components.

Edited August 8, 2025 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, paxamericana said:

You are already trading with the EU. Their demographic is just as bad as Canada. They export more to Canada than they buy. This doesn’t solve Canada problem of where to sell to. Your trade numbers will suffer this year since tariffs are in effect and the finish product have no where to go. Everyone uses Mexico and Canada as a backdoor to sell into America. This is the real reason for Trump tariffs. Goods actually made in Canada are majority USMCA compliant. So this hurts the small businesses that sells to America from overseas components.

I’m curious to hear how you justify tariffs of 50% on Canadian aluminum, considering that the US only produces 1 ninth of the aluminum it needs, and due to the costs of electricity production in the U.S., it’s unprofitable to build smelters in the U.S.   Does the fact that Ford Motor Company lost $800 million in the last quarter because of their heavy use of aluminum register in any way with the dumbasses writing US trade policy?

I’m also curious to know how you feel about the fact that Canada is looking to make the aluminum cans and construction t bars that it currently buys from U.S. factories, factories that are already struggling because of tariffs on the aluminum they use in their products.

I wonder how you feel about the booming tourism industry in Canada as a result of worldwide disgust and boycotts of travel to the U.S.?  How are bourbon sales going in Tennessee?

No doubt it makes good sense for Canada to sell to the U.S., just as it makes sense for the U.S. to sell to Canada, its biggest customer.  We didn’t choose to diversify our markets for fun.  It’s happening because of the insulting US tariffs imposed by US leadership that are making it less economical to export to the US.

This whole exercise makes life harder for Canadians, but the door on trade swings both ways.  Don’t complain if Canadians want to buy less American stuff or visit America less as a result of this treatment, and don’t complain if Canada adjusts its trade and domestic production to America’s disadvantage.  That would be a long term loss for the US. I don’t think it’s understood down there just how consequential this tariff war on Canada could be if it isn’t radically adjusted.

When the successful and productive segments of Canadian society change their behaviour based on principle, that’s a hard nut to crack, and the more Canadians tie domestic hardship to American tariffs and coercion, the more consolidated that attitude becomes. Belief can be far more powerful than policy.

Edited August 8, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

52 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

justify tariffs

Stop buying Chinesium. 

 

52 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

booming tourism industry

This is a incorrect assessment. The demographic trends says otherwise. There simply is not enough 20 year olds to travel around the world let alone sustain local consumption. 

 

52 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

insulting US tariffs imposed by US leadership

only if you take it that way. 51st is a non-partisan issue here in America.

52 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

When the successful and productive segments of Canadian society change their behaviour based on principle,

Economics Trumps principle. You're all just wasting time. I understand the want of sovereignty but really, there's  no justification for it. We're family (quite literally as many have family on both sides of the border), there's no cultural divide as there are with other countries. You're already another state economically. Canada trade more with the United States than inside Canada.  As a successful and productive segments of Canada you must also understand reality between want and need. You didn't get to success by always doing what you wanted. 

Edited August 8, 2025 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, paxamericana said:

You didn't get to success by always doing what you wanted. 

That’s true, but you’re underestimating and undervaluing the significance of the Canadian nation state to most Canadians.  You also have to understand the high cultural stakes for some groups in Canada, especially the Quebeckers and native groups who have treaties with the Crown.  I’m not even saying I agree with all the cultural protections and duplication of regulations and policies that exist in the U.S.  I think there’s a strong case to make for Canada to join the U.S., but many Canadians don’t see it.  They certainly won’t be convinced by coercion or threats.

The perennial fear in Canada is that Canadian interests will simply be ignored without a federal government to uphold them.  The provinces have their own interests that sometimes clash drastically with the federal government. Canada is too large and complex to be absorbed as a single state. You’d get 10 states and three territories. You’d probably have to call the states provinces and have some kind of Canadian federal bureaucracy in Ottawa for Canadian stuff.  If Canada could join the U.S. that way, Canadians might be convinced over time, but I don’t see it anytime soon.  Sovereignty isn’t on the table for the vast majority of Canadians.

Also, why would you want to deal with that sh@t?   Quebec?  Native activists lying across train tracks?   Let the dumbasses in Ottawa sort it.

The only easy solution is economic union.  Washington doesn’t have to absorb Democrats or provide federal services in French.  Basically the people of both countries can live and work and trade freely anywhere in Canada and the U.S., but you play by the federal/provincial/state rules of whatever country you’re in.  I suggest putting the Union government in Ottawa and gradually eliminating as much duplication of policy/departments as possible over time, along with the taxes that pay for them.   What you end up with is a small Ottawa federal and union bureaucracy while most of the big decisions are made in Washington.

People living outside their country of citizenship would have to pay privately for some government services until they reach a minimum residency requirement.  Keep a minimal border as a security checkpoint, but over time most people would have something like a Nexus card and drive straight across without stopping.

It would certainly give more opportunities to the citizens of both countries.  In 20-30 years the conversation about joining the U.S. might look quite different.

However, I’m not sure the appetite is even there for economic union right now.  This situation is a lesson on the importance of diplomacy and respect.  How messages are delivered and the content of those messages is important.  That’s why we have diplomats and committees to hash out grievances behind the scenes.

Edited August 8, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

27 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is too large and complex to be absorbed as a single state.

From the American perspective a 51st and 52nd would be acceptable. Western provinces and eastern lumped into two states respectively. 

 

27 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 In 20-30 years the conversation about joining the U.S. might look quite different.

It'd be about the same. We had 80 plus years of this integration business. I'm starting to believe that letting Canucks see how they fare without being part of the US and truly fend for themselves is a better way to move forward. Canada is getting a cold shoulder from the rest of the world. They're just as protectionist as Canada.

You all have been basking on the American post world war 2 largess. The Chinese too is the most dependent on American trade policies. China historically is not a unified state. It's through the American lead order that the Communist Party of China has been able to maintain power. Now that is changing. More and more you see protest in China against the central Government. I say this knowing full well the economic hardship that Canadians will have to endure. Unlike China though, America have offered Canadians an olive branch, you just have to reach for it.

Edited August 8, 2025 by paxamericana

[CdnFox]

7 hours ago, paxamericana said:

You are already trading with the EU. 

We're also already trading with America.

Turns out America's word doesn't mean anything to it. So we may have to move closer with the EU. We don't do a lot of trade with them right now but we certainly can increase that a great deal

[paxamericana]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Turns out America's word doesn't mean anything to it.

Turns out Canadians are allergic to lower taxes and permanent removal of tariff.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, paxamericana said:

Turns out Canadians are allergic to lower taxes and permanent removal of tariff.

No, not allergic although many do seem to happen intolerance strangely enough. What we're allergic to is stupidity. That's why we don't let you sit on the sofa when you visit  

[Zeitgeist]

8 hours ago, paxamericana said:

From the American perspective a 51st and 52nd would be acceptable. Western provinces and eastern lumped into two states respectively. 

 

It'd be about the same. We had 80 plus years of this integration business. I'm starting to believe that letting Canucks see how they fare without being part of the US and truly fend for themselves is a better way to move forward. Canada is getting a cold shoulder from the rest of the world. They're just as protectionist as Canada.

You all have been basking on the American post world war 2 largess. The Chinese too is the most dependent on American trade policies. China historically is not a unified state. It's through the American lead order that the Communist Party of China has been able to maintain power. Now that is changing. More and more you see protest in China against the central Government. I say this knowing full well the economic hardship that Canadians will have to endure. Unlike China though, America have offered Canadians an olive branch, you just have to reach for it.

Canada could have 100 million people by the end of the century.  That’s more than a few states worth of people.  You have to sell integration as a merger not a hostile takeover.  Canada and the U.S. could indeed merge and become something better and bigger than both countries.

America can’t simply eliminate all the provincial governments.  These places are quite different from each other and require local government due to the great distances across the country. East and West are oversimplifications.  You might be able to lump the Maritimes together as a state.  Quebec would be a state. Ontario would be a state.  Maybe Manitoba could be lumped in with Saskatchewan and Alberta, but Manitoba is quite different politically from Alberta.  BC would have to stand alone because it is politically distant from Alberta. So that’s five states at minimum, but there would be unrest over this.  The territories would have to remain as territories due to their native identities, especially Nunavut.  Basically Canada keeps reconstituting itself.

Edited August 9, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

America can’t simply eliminate all the provincial governments.

That would mean picking up half a dozen poor Mississippi (our poorest state, whose GDP is ironically higher than Canada's). I don't think the math would work out in America's interest at least in the short term. Long term probably be okay.

Our biggest interest would be defending the Artic. Which you canucks simply lack the ability to defend. There's no need to pay for administering these provinces since we already have a military alliance outside of NATO to do just that (NORAD). It would take someone with a long term strategic vision and ability to convince the American public that a larger country is necessary for our collective interest, which truthfully it is.