What will hold up longer, Canadian pride or their bank account?

[paxamericana]

7 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Why join that mess? 

If it was up to me, I would open up the border to all Canadians under 45. Let them work and live in America, pay lower taxes, move to America. Canada would cease to exist in the very next election cycle. 

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

If it was up to me, I would open up the border to all Canadians under 45. Let them work and live in America, pay lower taxes, move to America. Canada would cease to exist in the very next election cycle. 

It's not like it's hard to move to America now. Canadians have a pretty easy time of doing that, and yet strangely we continue to exist  In fact according to Google AI, In recent years, there's been a notable decline in Canadians permanently immigrating to the U.S.

So there you go. 

The thing about that is a lot of people coming to Canada from other places do so specifically because that makes it easier to get into the US, so you would always expect the Canadian moving to the US numbers would always be much larger. But they're not anymore.

Sorry to burst your bubble

[herbie]

A lot of Americans live under the delusion that the rest of the world also considers the taxes they pay as some sort of oppression and truly believe everyone sole dream is to become an American.
Then they go batshit loonie when the people that truly do show up there.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, paxamericana said:

If it means that my children would have a better future then why not?

As an Earthling I can certainly agree with that.

You guys probably think I'm just joking when I say get your stupid countries off my planet.

It's way past time we all got over ourselves and started acting like an intelligent species.

 

[CdnFox]

22 minutes ago, eyeball said:

As an Earthling I can certainly agree with that.

 

So you disagree  

[eyeball]

23 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

So you disagree  

Speak English much?

Of course reading it is your real issue.

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, paxamericana said:

I find this statement to be an oxymoron, you say there's advantage in being an economic union but you don't want statehood why? Seriously, I am actually trying to understand this sovereignty issue from the Canadian perspective. What is it about being an American that you find anathema? You're already culturally Americans. Many of us have families and friends on both sides of the border. Some of you own homes in Florida. 

I agree, but how do we unify in such a way that Canadians, and Americans for that matter, don’t feel like they’re giving up what they like about their country?  The reality is, if you want peace on your hands, much of what already exists in both countries has to be preserved.  The provinces need their legislatures.  Some kind of Canadian federal government in Ottawa needs to persist to take care of Canada’s national stuff like the French language and British North American cultural stuff.  Start with a North American Union with free movement of labour, services and goods, with a minimal border security checkpoint.  Over time eliminate as much duplication of government institutions between the two countries as the populations of each country will support.  I could see the relationship between Canada and the US  becoming like England’s relationship with Scotland or Canada’s relationship with Quebec: integration on most but not all federal matters.

However, I don’t see any further integration of the Canadian economy into the American one in the near future.  Canada has put the gears in reverse and stepped on the gas.  It’s really on the US to mend the fence it damaged.

Edited August 4, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Speak English much?

Better than you apparently  

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Of course reading it is your real issue.

LOL sure kid

 

[paxamericana]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

However, I don’t see any further integration of the Canadian economy into the American one in the near future.  Canada has put the gears in reverse and stepped on the gas.  It’s really on the US to mend the fence it damaged.

Nah I'm for putting Canada on economic time out. Free riding on US economy has to come to an end. If Canada is to be a soverign nation it should be able to do so without US dependence. 

[Zeitgeist]

30 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Nah I'm for putting Canada on economic time out. Free riding on US economy has to come to an end. If Canada is to be a soverign nation it should be able to do so without US dependence. 

Our trade is even-sided and actually tips in the US’s favour given the discount America gets on our crude oil, which we buy back as gasoline refined in Texas.

[paxamericana]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Our trade is even-sided and actually tips in the US’s favour given the discount America gets on our crude oil, which we buy back as gasoline refined in Texas.

I wonder if the West Canadians truely want independence from Ottawa or be 51st. Jury is still out. I do know that in America, 51st is a non-partisan issue. That is if people actually cared at all. A land bridge to Alaska could be a fair strategic trade for enriching the Canadians. Though I'm sure we already have some sort of agreement with you Canucks regarding this.

 

Edited August 5, 2025 by paxamericana

[paxamericana]

7 hours ago, herbie said:

everyone sole dream is to become an American

And yet alot of people do just that. I am in the pro immigration camp but only for the legal vetted one. None of this open border nonesense. Can't wait to buy land in Canada and wave my big American flag on the lawn. I fantasize being across the street to a prideful Canadian like @CdnFox flying my star spangle banner. 

Quote

A lot of Americans live under the delusion that the rest of the world also considers the taxes they pay as some sort of oppression 

I don't think you understand how severe the problem is with Canada. In 15 years your goverment won't even be able to pay for schools and hostpitals. You're goingquietly into that good night. In which case the Americans will step in. We cannot afford to have a failed state on our border. Your population demographic is past replacement, you ran out of kids 30 years ago. Sure you can let in immigrants but we all saw how badly that turned out. Canada won't even look like Canada. Ottawa is broke, they can't afford to ease up tax burden to the praries. Guess where that leads? Secession.

Edited August 5, 2025 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, paxamericana said:

I wonder if the West Canadians truely want independence from Ottawa or be 51st. Jury is still out. I do know that in America, 51st is a non-partisan issue. That is if people actually cared at all. A land bridge to Alaska could be a fair strategic trade for enriching the Canadians. Though I'm sure we already have some sort of agreement with you Canucks regarding this.

 

You answered your own question.  Why would any Canadian jurisdiction want to be part of a country where it’s unclear whether the citizens of that country “care at all”?   By your own admission, the U.S. is too self-absorbed to think of Canada as anything more than a source of cheap resources.

Also, the problems you claim Canada has are America’s problems too.  Perhaps our birth rate is a bit lower, but so is our debt.  We also aren’t as polarized or violent.

Edited August 5, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

U.S. is too self-absorbed

That's how it is supposed to be. When a goverment is functioning right, it leaves it's citizen alone to their own prerogative. 

 

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We also aren’t as polarized or violent.

mmmhmm, you're also quickly not able to afford public services or a place to live for that matter. 

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, paxamericana said:

That's how it is supposed to be. When a goverment is functioning right, it leaves it's citizen alone to their own prerogative. 

 

mmmhmm, you're also quickly not able to afford public services or a place to live for that matter. 

Well we’ve been able to keep our infant mortality rate significantly lower than your country’s and have better healthcare outcomes on average.  Our social safety net is more plentiful and we pay more taxes to provide it.  Scandinavian countries do similar things and are generally at the top of the Human Development Index.

However, I agree that our governments have been too activist and over-regulated us in recent years.  Canada needs a corrective shift to the centre.  Not sure why Trump supported the Liberals.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, paxamericana said:

Nah I'm for putting Canada on economic time out. Free riding on US economy has to come to an end. If Canada is to be a soverign nation it should be able to do so without US dependence. 

Annoyingly you're right. We got lazy and way too cozy and it's not healthy.

Having said that you've enjoyed the benefits of that relationship massively. One of the reasons that America is so successful is it had absolutely secure borders and a neighbor who would happily work with you and provide you with all kinds of resources that you needed at discount prices.

Almost no other nations on earth have ever benefited like that and it made a difference. In many ways you got far more out of the relationship than we did.

So I wouldn't go crying too loudly. It's true that we have to move away from being dependent on you for trade, open up more markets and buy more of our own products unless of yours. But it's also true that a lot of the reason that you have what you have is because of the security afford it by having a neighbor like us.

So don't think you're putting the end to some sort of unfair situation for America. In the long run this is going to weaken you. There is a very very good reason why the free trade agreements were signed in the first place including by Donald Trump

[herbie]

A trade deal with the USA is no longer Canada's top priority.
Untangling the economy from US trade is.
 

[TreeBeard]

On 8/1/2025 at 8:17 AM, Shady said:

It seems to me that they're willing to burn the country to the ground

Over the long term, what do you think would be worse for the Canadian economy:

A bad trade deal with the USA that lasts decades, or;

Delaying 3.5 years and putting up with trade tariffs until there’s a change in the administration?

[Shady]

47 minutes ago, herbie said:

A trade deal with the USA is no longer Canada's top priority.
Untangling the economy from US trade is.
 

You're not going to untangle the Canadian economy from the largest economy in the world, that's closest in proximity.  We can increase our trade on the margins with other countries, but nothing will offset the trade we do with America.  Anyone that thinks we can just trade more with other countries doesn't understand that we already trade with other countries.

[Shady]

2 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Over the long term, what do you think would be worse for the Canadian economy:

A bad trade deal with the USA that lasts decades, or;

Delaying 3.5 years and putting up with trade tariffs until there’s a change in the administration?

It's a false choice.

[TreeBeard]

Just now, Shady said:

It's a false choice.

How so?

[Shady]

16 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

How so?

How do you know that a short term deal with lower tariffs isn't possible?  Other countries have been successful?  Regardless, there's no such thing as a long term deal, especially once Trump is out of office.  It's likely the next president would rip it up anyways.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

Over the long term, what do you think would be worse for the Canadian economy:

A bad trade deal with the USA that lasts decades, or;

Delaying 3.5 years and putting up with trade tariffs until there’s a change in the administration?

We can renegotiate any trade deal at any time. That's spelled right into NAFTA.

So your question is completely flawed to begin with.

We are better off with a bad trade deal that lasts for 3.5 years then heavy tariffs that hurt us even worse for 3.5 years

That's Math even that you should be able to handle

[herbie]

2 hours ago, Shady said:

You're not going to untangle the Canadian economy from the largest economy in the world, that's closest in proximity.  We can increase our trade on the margins with other countries, but nothing will offset the trade we do with America.  Anyone that thinks we can just trade more with other countries doesn't understand that we already trade with other countries.

Yes we are. Untangling does not mean we're going to stop, reduce or ban trade with the USA. It simply means reducing the amount of dependence on it, now that they've proven how untrustworthy their country has become.

[paxamericana]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

untrustworthy their country has become.

Trust doesn’t have anything to do with Canada’s refusal to be 51st. Ingratitude is the word you are looking for. So get off your high horse.

You’re only hurting yourself. Canada is in a managed decline. It’s time to join the family or be left out in the cold. You all chose the cold. 

Oh and you’re not the only one. The Brits have a similar problem, but even then they are coming to the realization that there is no future without the Americans. As have the Japanese and Koreans. Take your medicine Canucks, petition for statehood. 

Edited August 5, 2025 by paxamericana