No man's land; the advent of drone warfare

[paxamericana]

The Ukraine war has exposed a problem for today's countries, the prolific use of drone. In a world with a declining/aging population, it is no longer feasible to send men into direct combat. Drones have been steadily advancing in range and lethality. Drones by themselves are not able to maintain ground, they are used to deny the occupation of territory but cannot occupy it. Until such time that new defensive drone denial technology exist we will see an ever increasing size of the territory that will be in the no man's land. Less and less land will be habitable in a conflict zone is the key takeaway. This means that territorial buffer land will become even more important. The United State and the Americas are situated on two ocean sized moats and by virtue has the largest territorial buffer. But this raises a concern over how to conduct future warfare operation an ocean away. I argue that the US Millitary will still be able to operate in a drone rich environment mostly because a propeller drone have an altitude ceiling of 32000 ft and a distance  of 50km for the fiber optic spool. The US Military will have a hard time holding on to territory however. Until new technology become available to counter drones at scale. 

[August1991]

On 7/25/2025 at 12:29 PM, paxamericana said:

The Ukraine war has exposed a problem for today's countries, the prolific use of drone. In a world with a declining/aging population, it is no longer feasible to send men into direct combat. ...

Less and less land will be habitable in a conflict zone is the key takeaway. This means that territorial buffer land will become even more important. The United State and the Americas are situated on two ocean sized moats and by virtue has the largest territorial buffer. But this raises a concern over how to conduct future warfare operation an ocean away. I argue that the US Millitary....

1. I agree that the Russia-Ukraine war has exposed the importance of drones.

2. Declining/aging population? Men into combat? You lost me.

Wars are fought by young men. This will not change. Religions/Tribes/Ethnic Groups/Countries win wars because young men are foolishly willing to die.

3. Conflict zone? You lost me. Sometimes new technology gives the offense an advantage, sometimes the defence. I have walked the remnants of Great War trenches, seen the closeness of Beaumont-Hamel. Austerlitz? Immense.

Edited August 21, 2025 by August1991

[August1991]

IMHO, this war is a foolish civil war between stubborn Slavs.

======

You Americans won the Cold War. The Soviet Union is no more.

[Army Guy]

Counter drone tech is already being developed at light speed, and these measures will be incorporated into ground forces at the same speed....new IFV and MBT are already being designed with counter drone tech built in , be it a 30 mm auto cannon with built in radar, or old tech like twin 35 mm AA guns like the old gepard , US has the new LAV with new 30 mm auto cannon with stingers or hellfire missiles to solve all low level AA threats. Using drones to hunt drones is another solution, or just jamming entire spectrums of freq's, or the oldest was 12 gauge shotgun...all working in Ukraine right now...

 

[paxamericana]

6 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Counter drone tech is already being developed at light speed, and these measures will be incorporated into ground forces at the same speed....new IFV and MBT are already being designed with counter drone tech built in , be it a 30 mm auto cannon with built in radar, or old tech like twin 35 mm AA guns like the old gepard , US has the new LAV with new 30 mm auto cannon with stingers or hellfire missiles to solve all low level AA threats. Using drones to hunt drones is another solution, or just jamming entire spectrums of freq's, or the oldest was 12 gauge shotgun...all working in Ukraine right now...

 

Jamming won’t work on fiber optic drone. 

[User]

14 hours ago, paxamericana said:

Jamming won’t work on fiber optic drone. 

Well, good thing he listed off a whole paragraph of stuff besides that...

[paxamericana]

2 minutes ago, User said:

Well, good thing he listed off a whole paragraph of stuff besides that...

I didn't have much more to point out. We've seen what Russia and the Ukraine is doing for drone warfare but both participant lack the industrial might and technical know how of western power like Germany and America so, at best we can only guess how that tech would or would not be effective against NATO. 

[Army Guy]

17 hours ago, paxamericana said:

Jamming won’t work on fiber optic drone. 

I know but that shows you how fast this tech is moving...like every weapon system some one invents it, week later someone is working on a counter measure.

this works well as well.

 

[paxamericana]

13 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I know but that shows you how fast this tech is moving...like every weapon system some one invents it, week later someone is working on a counter measure.

this works well as well.

 

Standard issue safety scissors for all the NCOs

[Army Guy]

5 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Standard issue safety scissors for all the NCOs

most soldiers carry them in their med packs, good for a lot of things...

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 8/21/2025 at 3:16 AM, August1991 said:

IMHO, this war is a foolish civil war between stubborn Slavs.

How in the name of thundering Jaysus can any right-thinking person say that? Russian invaded Ukraine. Ukraine is merely trying to defend itself. The bad guy here could not be clearer. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

For years China was unable to compete on internal combustion engines but saw early on that electric vehicles presented an opportunity to change the game. Drones may be another paradigm-shifter, enabling Xi to bypass the problem of a sclerotic, corrupt and inexperienced army in one neat move.

Perhaps one day wars will be conducted by simulation, hopefully without the disintegration chambers, as predicted on Star Trek? I suppose the war gaming that helped convince the Soviets the game was up was a primitive version of this. 

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[paxamericana]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Perhaps one day wars will be conducted by simulation, hopefully without the disintegration chambers

No, the original sin was when Cain killed Abel. We’ve been living in a broken world ever since. A sin that originate in the heart. Until we learn to love one another as commanded, we will continue to find new ways of coveting and killing one another.

Edited September 7, 2025 by paxamericana

[Aristides]

Warfare has always swung between offence and defence. When one gets the upper hand, before long it is the other that surpasses it.

[August1991]

6 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

How in the name of thundering Jaysus can any right-thinking person say that? Russian invaded Ukraine. Ukraine is merely trying to defend itself. The bad guy here could not be clearer. 

WTF?

According to you, in 2014, Russia "invaded" Ukraine and Russia "occupied" Crimea. Our own PM Harper still claims such.

=====

Spanky,

We live in a different world - multi-polar, with guys like Trump.

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 9/8/2025 at 12:50 AM, August1991 said:

WTF?

According to you, in 2014, Russia "invaded" Ukraine and Russia "occupied" Crimea. Our own PM Harper still claims such.

=====

Spanky,

We live in a different world - multi-polar, with guys like Trump.

 

I don’t care what people like Trump claim to think or want us to say or how many poles our world has. Russia invaded Ukraine, mate. Them’s the objective facts. 

[August1991]

On 9/18/2025 at 1:35 AM, SpankyMcFarland said:

I don’t care what people like Trump claim to think or want us to say or how many poles our world has. Russia invaded Ukraine, mate. Them’s the objective facts. 

Disagree. Russia did not invade Ukraine.

In 2014, Crimea joined Russia.

=======

This stupid civil war among stubborn Slavs, that has the potential to create a World War, could have been avoided.

[brett 1]

a Reply to the original post by Paxamericana

todays drones are just the tip of the iceberg, last year i watched a documentary about AI warfare that foretold the future of mechanized warfare.

Drone Fighter Jets that run on AI Artificial intelligence and learn the enemys moves/tactics in combat.

The documentary actually put a human top gun ace fighter jet pilot in a simulator up against AI controlled un-maned fighter. in the first round the human won, but by the third round the the human admitted he didnt stand a chance against the drone. The AI drone fighter jet was able to learn all the potential moves of the human pilot and counter them faster than the human could implement them. The human pilot said in a head on attack the AI does not get nervous and reacts faster while the humans nerves and fear come into play interfere with his decision making.

So if a single human pilot up against a single AI drone doesn't stand a chance,  then imagine a pack of 6 drone AI controlled  fighter jets all working together as a group, all instantly communicating with each other, and instantly sharing information learned in battle with each other . all independent yet all working and communicating with each other in split seconds as thou they are one entity..

that kind of weaponized AI  applied to un maned fighter jets , tanks , ships,  even missiles is the new direction of mechanized warfare of the future.

But the scary part and  problem i see with Mechanized  AI weapons is that because some nations know they wont stand a chance against AI weapons with their conventional mechanized weapons , those nations may then decide to take the battle to the next level if its the only way they see of defeating the other nation in battle. And the next level being nuclear warfare.

during the recent Putin war against the Ukraine, Putin alluded that if he was pressed to hard by  western nations that he would take drastic measures. i believe he was alluding to nuclear measures. So what if western countries actually had AI jets and weaponry that they could send to the Ukraine. Such a scenario  might surely push Putin to acknowledge the futility of his conventional weaponry and force him to up the game and draw on his nuclear arsenal to counter his opponents AI advantage...

  AI could be considered the weapon that puts a quick end to battles out in the field of combat, but it may also be the cause of escalation to the next level... nuclear.

 

[cannuck]

5 minutes ago, cannuck said:

battlefield drones seldom rely on RF transmission for guidance (ground, satnav, airborne, etc.) any longer.  They mostly trail up to 30km of fiber optic cable.  The Ukrainian defensive solution was to install walls of rotating "threshing machines" that wind up and tangle those hair thin cables.

 

Edited October 14, 2025 by cannuck

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

 

Drone technology is changing at light speeds, most weapons systems once developed and put into the field , someone is working on a counter look at Ukraine, the first 1 and a bit drones were flown frequencies, this year they are flown by fiber optic cables...who knowns what the next guidance system will be...It is like radio communications today, key your mic/ use your phone, turn on your electric razor,  and within milliseconds they bad guys know where you are, within minutes you could be on the receiving end of a rocket of arty attack..... most nations are now going to sat coms, which are harder to detect....my point is in conflict technology changes very fast....look at how fast counter drone tech is working, we now have drones that hunt drones...

 

[Army Guy]

On 10/10/2025 at 3:07 AM, brett 1 said:

a Reply to the original post by Paxamericana

todays drones are just the tip of the iceberg, last year i watched a documentary about AI warfare that foretold the future of mechanized warfare.

Drone Fighter Jets that run on AI Artificial intelligence and learn the enemys moves/tactics in combat.

The documentary actually put a human top gun ace fighter jet pilot in a simulator up against AI controlled un-maned fighter. in the first round the human won, but by the third round the the human admitted he didnt stand a chance against the drone. The AI drone fighter jet was able to learn all the potential moves of the human pilot and counter them faster than the human could implement them. The human pilot said in a head on attack the AI does not get nervous and reacts faster while the humans nerves and fear come into play interfere with his decision making.

So if a single human pilot up against a single AI drone doesn't stand a chance,  then imagine a pack of 6 drone AI controlled  fighter jets all working together as a group, all instantly communicating with each other, and instantly sharing information learned in battle with each other . all independent yet all working and communicating with each other in split seconds as thou they are one entity..

that kind of weaponized AI  applied to un maned fighter jets , tanks , ships,  even missiles is the new direction of mechanized warfare of the future.

But the scary part and  problem i see with Mechanized  AI weapons is that because some nations know they wont stand a chance against AI weapons with their conventional mechanized weapons , those nations may then decide to take the battle to the next level if its the only way they see of defeating the other nation in battle. And the next level being nuclear warfare.

during the recent Putin war against the Ukraine, Putin alluded that if he was pressed to hard by  western nations that he would take drastic measures. i believe he was alluding to nuclear measures. So what if western countries actually had AI jets and weaponry that they could send to the Ukraine. Such a scenario  might surely push Putin to acknowledge the futility of his conventional weaponry and force him to up the game and draw on his nuclear arsenal to counter his opponents AI advantage...

  AI could be considered the weapon that puts a quick end to battles out in the field of combat, but it may also be the cause of escalation to the next level... nuclear.

 

The problem with using drones to fight our battles comes in many forms....todays wars are normally ended when one side has suffered enough losses of human life  to make waging war no longer viable....introduce drones and the outcome now differs , by extending the war, where loss of human life is no longer a factor but rather how much money you have to spend on drones...

Which might cause one nation or both to transfer objectives instead of just fighting other drones, inflict damage on the civilian population will be a goal to make the other bend the knee....no longer will nations have their soldiers question if orders are legal, be reluctant to kill unarmed civilians instead they will have a machine designed to wipe out anyone it comes into contact with, all of that with no conscience, no regret , no PTSD ....

[brett 1]

 I

On 10/14/2025 at 4:25 PM, Army Guy said:

Drone technology is changing at light speeds, most weapons systems once developed and put into the field , someone is working on a counter look at Ukraine, the first 1 and a bit drones were flown frequencies, this year they are flown by fiber optic cables...who knowns what the next guidance system will be...It is like radio communications today, key your mic/ use your phone, turn on your electric razor,  and within milliseconds they bad guys know where you are, within minutes you could be on the receiving end of a rocket of arty attack..... most nations are now going to sat coms, which are harder to detect....my point is in conflict technology changes very fast....look at how fast counter drone tech is working, we now have drones that hunt drones...

 

Being able to control drones over enemy lines seems to be challenging. But i guess land based control or any outside control of a drone wont be needed in the future with AI taking over full control of drones  ...

With artificial intelligence operated drones or AI fighter jets you simply program target locations and send it off on its own...let its AI take care of the rest,  be it fighter intercepting , or bombing, or surveillance...  its got AI so it knows what to do, it dont need you telling what to do once its in air,, you just sit back and wait for it to return  by itself.. no radio control signals for the enemy to jam, no fiber to tangle up .

also stealth, radar jamming,, radar tricking misleading features , will make drones hard to track by the enemy.. i think Pakistan tricked India with some kind of radar trickery  not to long ago.

controlling a drone by a string attached to a tin can that you talk into just about sums up Canada's Drone military might on the world stage...  lol.

Edited October 16, 2025 by brett 1

[August1991]

On 10/14/2025 at 4:36 PM, Army Guy said:

The problem with using drones to fight our battles comes in many forms....todays wars are normally ended when one side has suffered enough losses of human life  to make waging war no longer viable....introduce drones and the outcome now differs...

 

IMHO, our current world situation is not 1939 - we are not facing evil.

Rather, I think that we are facing a world similar to Summer 1914. At that time, everyone thought the war would be short.

We too now think the war will be short - we have technology to win. 

[Army Guy]

14 hours ago, August1991 said:

IMHO, our current world situation is not 1939 - we are not facing evil.

Rather, I think that we are facing a world similar to Summer 1914. At that time, everyone thought the war would be short.

We too now think the war will be short - we have technology to win. 

You don't think they are not evil, I've seen what Russian soldiers are capable of, with many Russian soldiers already been declared war criminals....So ya they are evil...and don't think Chinese are any better...Neither have paid much attention to the Geneva conventions...we will see when China takes Twain and how they treat them, and the US naval forces...

[suds]

3 or 4 months ago I believe, Ukrainian drones attacked a Russian bomber base at least a thousand miles away. Trucks simply brought the drones in close enough to the airfield undetected and they were released. Communications with the drones were set up some way through the internet. Even today according to the Russia Times, people living in Russia are tired of getting their internet services being turned on and off. What this means is that there is really no place on earth with a significant population which can be adequately protected. The one good side of this might be that China might think twice before attacking Taiwan with seeing what Ukraine is doing to the Russians. Also, with the possibility of AI controlled warplanes, the planes themselves can likely be built more cheaply and deadly. For one thing you don't have to worry about g forces or any other kind of pilot safety mechanisms. I was one who was skeptical of cars driving themselves. Was I wrong.