Toronto-Quebec City High-Speed Rail

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

The fundamental delusion that gives conservatives hope.

 

Well we did it before  

Quote

This Holy Grail is a wishful illusion on a horizon that's receding in the rearview mirror.

That may be true. But all that will mean is that we can't afford it then either

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

Well we did it before  

Don't hold your breath. Canada has only ever had 40 balanced budgets and has never been debt-free in its entire existence.

[CdnFox]

6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Don't hold your breath. Canada has only ever had 40 balanced budgets and has never been debt-free in its entire existence.

You can get free isn't necessarily something to shoot for. The economy is always growing and that shrinks debt in and of itself. If you make $100 and you owe $100 Then you owe 100% of your income which is bad. However if your income grows to a thousand and you still only owe $100 you're down to 10% of your income and that's completely manageable

But the debt has to stop growing. Or at least it has to stop most of the time.

That inspires confidence in the economy, it inspires investment, it means that every year more of our revenues go to services and less goes to debt servicing and it means things are getting better

Currently every year right now our federal debt to GDP ratio increases every year instead of decreasing. And at an alarming rate.

We cannot afford $90 billion dollar projects which are almost certainly going to actually be $150 billion projects under those conditions

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, Legato said:

Would that be a meat or a cheese & onion.

Either or...we should be looking forward to the day when automated cars come with a bar.

And don't get me started on traffic congestion...one day people will just google one up on an app when they need to get somewhere.

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

The economy is always growing and that shrinks debt in and of itself.

Yes but you're forgetting the economy needs to stop growing if we...

Meh....never mind.

[CdnFox]

54 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You think 100 billion on defence each year is fine but a one time expense for transport infrastructure that will take decades to build if we start now in the part of the country where over half the population lives and which continues to have by the numbers one of the highest population growth rates in the West isn’t worthwhile?  You clearly haven’t lived in Ontario, where fast movement between these cities is valued by millions.  Alberta will get all the pipelines it can find investors to fund.  I don’t know if you appreciate the scale of the economy in central Canada and the importance of having decent transportation options. The 401 has the heaviest traffic in North America. HSR would be valued here, in a vote-rich part of the country, for multiple reasons. If I were Poilievre I’d either reverse course on his anti-HSR stance or be neutral. It’s not a hill worth dying on. 

And then there's this little gem btw 

Champagne in relationship with executive of $90B Alto Rail 

 

Here's a prediction, the green light it and the project drags on it comes in at double or triple the projected costs and this company makes an absolute staggering fortune and as soon as champagne and carney leaf politics they get hired on the board of directors and paid a couple million bucks a year each

And you may or may not ever see the rail line.

This is not a good deal for Canadians, this is not a good thing for us to do, this is a disaster that will funnel money out of the hands of taxpayers into liberal-friendly pockets

[eyeball]

Just now, CdnFox said:

This is not a good deal for Canadians, this is not a good thing for us to do, this is a disaster that will funnel money out of the hands of taxpayers into liberal-friendly pockets

We should really do something about that one day.

Michael's suggestion of switching to digital currency so we can always follow the money comes to mind.

 

[Legato]

19 minutes ago, eyeball said:

We should really do something about that one day.

Michael's suggestion of switching to digital currency so we can always follow the money comes to mind.

 

Why the need to follow when the destination is already known.

[herbie]

Yeah digital currency is actual imaginary value. We can run deficits of trillions then convince everyone it was worthless and they knew it, so we're dropping it altogether

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Legato said:

Why the need to follow when the destination is already known.

To verify that's where it arrived.

[eyeball]

42 minutes ago, herbie said:

Yeah digital currency is actual imaginary value. We can run deficits of trillions then convince everyone it was worthless and they knew it, so we're dropping it altogether

It's pretty subjective all right. Economics is only a liberal art don't forget.

It's not like STEM or something.

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

We DON"T spend a 100 billion a year on defense, in fact we spend about HALF that.   And it's the federal gov'ts job to provide for the defense of the country, that's a primary duty! 

And as i noted previously there's no way it's a 'one time' expense.  And yes, an unnecessary rail system that serves a tiny percent of the population is NOT WORTH 2 YEARS OF OUR ENTIRE DEFENSE BUDGET!  Yeash! 

And as I also pointed out seeing as we have to borrow the money we spend about $3 billion dollars a year just in the interest payments, hoping that interest doesn't go up. So over the next 10 years after it's built there's another 30 billion.

And it will not take decades to build. The first phase would be operational 6 years after construction starts, with the final completion about 10 and change years  from start. 

 

and the longer it takes the more prices go up and the more overbudget it goes. 

And as pointed out it's not even close to the highest population growth in the west. The actual west, BC and Alberta, have higher population density, higher population growth.

And if Alberta can have all of the pipelines it can find investors to build then you can have all of the high-speed trains you can find investors to build. And if no investors are interested then that tells you something about how useless it is

This is not a decent transportation option. This is a vanity project servicing a small number of people And will saddle our country with debt that will cripple entire generations

And you still haven't put forward anything even remotely resembling an argument as to how this benefits us other than you like the idea.

There are many arguments that I presented, but the basic truth is that talented people who bring value and create jobs don’t want to live in second rate places where commute times and travel times within the regional city cluster are lousy.  This reality will get worse and the cost of improving it will grow the longer we wait.  90 billion today won’t seem that rich in 30 years due to inflation, which historically has been around two percent annually (so roughly 60%}.  It’s no different to buying a house.  In 20 years that mortgage doesn’t feel so big.  I agree that infrastructure is expensive, but we might as well do it now while our steel and aluminum mills are short of customers and our auto manufacturers are disappearing.  Right now the only other major infrastructure project in Ontario is developing the ring of fire up north, a project that requires many regulatory approvals and might as well be in another country in terms of its direct impact on most Ontarians who live in the south.  

Edited April 7 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

We should really do something about that one day.

 

 

STOP.... VOTING.....FOR..... THEM!

Quote

Michael's suggestion of switching to digital currency so we can always follow the money comes to mind.

Makes no difference in the slightest.  Name one example in canadian politics in the last 20 years where that would help. 

There's nothing illegal about hiring a politician after he gets out of office, and no legal requirement that he has to actually do any work if you do. So if a company that HAPPNEED to get a single source countact for billions of dollars just HAPPENS to hire an ex politiican for a million a year and they don't HAPPEN to require him to do work, that's just complete coincidence right?

And you get a couple dozen companies like that and your retirement looks pretty good! 

These guys will ALWAYS find the loophole. 

[eyeball]

Just now, CdnFox said:

STOP.... VOTING.....FOR..... THEM!

LMAO!

 

[CdnFox]

15 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

There are many arguments that I presented, but the basic truth is that talented people who bring value and create jobs don’t want to live in second rate places where commute times and travel times within the regional city cluster are lousy.  

You haven't presented any arguments, all you do is make these outlandish statements without backing it up.

Tell other people aren't interested in a daily commute between Montreal and Toronto. Or at least so few of them that is not even worth considering.

And how many talented people would you have to attract a Canada that weren't going to come to Canada anyway to justify 100 billion dollars? Maybe about 10 million people or something and you're not going to attract that many and the system couldn't handle that many of you could

And if you buy a house for $90 billion dollars I guarantee you'll feel the mortgage in 20 years

I'm really getting the sense that you don't understand how much money $90 billion dollars is. And as we've said several times it's probably more like 150. That is an absolutely staggering amount of money. It's like a person who's making just above minimum wage buying a house for 2 million

Are you talking about is loading the pockets of liberals for no good reason. This does not help us in any way shape or form that even remotely comes close to justifying the cost even a tiny bit. This is a burden that will plague literally generations of Canadians and the mortgage will still be high even 40 years from now. You need to have a sit and a think about how much money we're talking about here

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

This train line will still only be able to handle a fraction of the traffic.

I'd sooner see 90 billion invested in automating the 401 with computer systems that can synchronize 'trains' of cars all heading to the same destination and probably get them there faster than a HSR.

We're well down the path towards automated driving already so automating our roads to meet this development halfway seems logical and doable. It would basically mean installing WIFI stations along the roads or using satellites to handle the traffic

$90 billion should go a long way towards kick starting this. It would open the door to all sorts of opportunities for tech companies.

They could dedicate a couple of lanes either way for cars already capable of automatic driving and open up more lanes as more capable cars come onto the market. There'd be no need for stations or appropriating property. As I understand it most of the money going towards this is to compensate property owners.

Obviously over time the system could be the expanded anywhere. Canada could position itself to be the world leader in automating road systems.

HSR is already on the path towards obselescence. Jumping onboard now would be typically Canadian.  We should have learned our lesson with PetroCan.

China is expanding its HSR and the Japanese economy simply wouldn’t be what it is today without its bullet trains.  You can have all the auto chains and automation you want, it won’t reduce the volume of vehicles on the 401, which is basically a parking lot at rush hour and getting worse.  The electrification of GO lines in southern Ontario will provide faster and more frequent trains in the GTA, but their speeds only keep commutes reasonable within about an 80 km radius of Union Station.  Beyond that distance you really can’t get commutes down to under an hour, which is why HSR becomes essential.  Otherwise basically people can’t afford homes that have reasonable commute times.  Home prices from Guelph to Oshawa and as far north as King City/Aurora are high.  We’re going to need short HSR spurs eventually to Barrie and Kitchener-Waterloo.  The province will likely extend an HSR line from Toronto to London through Kitchener Waterloo.  These trains will remove some auto and air traffic.

Not everyone can afford to live in Manhattan, but if you knew you could live in affordable Peterborough or Cambridge and get to work in Toronto in an hour or less, suddenly life prospects change in terms of being able to afford a home, raise a family, or have more time for yourself outside of work and commute times.  

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

These guys will ALWAYS find the loophole.

Stop making them in the first place.

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Stop making them in the first place.

Not possible. There is always an exploitable loophole no matter what you do a gap open somewhere else.

Top it off with the fact that it's your beloved liberals who are passing the laws in the first place and there is literally no chance of that happening

Not to mention the fact that you voted into power a guy whose job it was to find loophole so that very rich people didn't pay tax and is an expert in creating these loopholes/    If you cared about this crap you should have made sure someone else got elected. 

[eyeball]

20 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

China is expanding its HSR and the Japanese economy simply wouldn’t be what it is today without its bullet trains. You can have all the auto chains and automation you want, it won’t reduce the volume of vehicles on the 401, which is basically a parking lot at rush hour and getting worse.

Right now there's some 650000 vehicles per day using the highway and they're hoping 72000 people will be able to use a fully built and utilized HSR.

It makes no sense 

Congestion is the problem. Start encouraging public/corporate ownership of Google-cars and put private cars in the slowest lanes.

20 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not everyone can afford to live in Manhattan, but if you knew you could live in affordable Peterborough or Cambridge and get to work in Toronto in an hour or less, suddenly life prospects change in terms of being able to afford a home, raise a family, or have more time for yourself outside of work and commute times.  

Absolutely. I just don't think they'll ever come close to moving enough people on a daily basis to ever justify the cost compared to what we have now. We'd be better off fixing and adapting what's already on the ground to our needs.

 

Edited April 7 by eyeball

[eyeball]

15 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Not possible. 

Especially to can'tservatives. It means changing something 😱

Edited April 7 by eyeball

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Especially to can'tservatives. It means changing something 😱

Says the guy who keeps voting for the ones who are actually doing the things that he's complaining about   I guess that's what Liebrals do   

[Michael Hardner]

40 minutes ago, eyeball said:

 Start encouraging public/corporate ownership of Google-cars and put private cars in the slowest lanes.

If a Google car could just average two people per car, congestion would evaporate I'm sure.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

If a Google car could just average two people per car, congestion would evaporate I'm sure.

Very few people want to live in a society without private vehicles or one where it’s unaffordable or too slow to own one for average people.  Create those kinds of conditions, unless you’re London or Manhattan, and people will simply move to other cities/countries.  Not many people want to give up the freedom and autonomy of the private vehicle. Decent trains AND options like Google cars and many other options are necessary. Successful cities are the ones with the most options for jobs, housing, transportation, etc.

Edited April 7 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

55 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Very few people want to live in a society without private vehicles or one where it’s unaffordable or too slow to own one for average people. 

So your solution is to spend all of their money on a freaking train? And then we can't afford infrastructure or roadway upgrades and people won't be able to afford to maintain a vehicle anyway

Again I don't think you understand the scope of how much money we're talking about here. I don't think you get how badly this will deplete our federal ability to spend money on other things. Perhaps you think money is infinite and it's not possible to over spend?  I assure you that is not the case.  BC just had it's credit rating downgraded and the feds are on track for that. 

There is NO way this kind of expenditure makes sense even during good financial times, but right now? When our Debt to gdp is historically high? While the provinces are going broke as well?  While the libs are set to rack up endless deficits around 80 billion or so for every year with just their CURRENT spending?  WIth the trade war and the world facing an economic downturn?

FFS, think about it!

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Says the guy who keeps voting for the ones who are actually doing the things that he's complaining about   I guess that's what Liebrals do   

See, you can't change your tune either. Typical cantservatism.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

If a Google car could just average two people per car, congestion would evaporate I'm sure.

Yup  Out of some 650 thousand cars per day in the Toronto / Montreal corridors over 580 thousand of them are carrying only a single occupant.

It's going to cost $90 + who knows how many more billions for the benefit of 10 - 12% of that.

It's nuts.