Moral disorder of our time; hatred of Israel

[BlahTheCanuck]

Most so-called 'criticisms of Israel' in this day and age are Palestinian and Iranian war propaganda, but there are legitimate grievances with some Israeli policies. With that said, I highly doubt that, for example, if Israel removed the settlements in the West Bank or achieved a ceasefire in Gaza, the Palestinians would be willing to sit down and negotiate to solve the conflict.

Also, the UN didn't 'give' the Jews a country - the Israelis declared independence over the territory themselves once the British left and there was (at the time) no Palestinian counter-claim of independence.

[eyeball]

19 hours ago, BlahTheCanuck said:

Also, the UN didn't 'give' the Jews a country - the Israelis declared independence over the territory themselves once the British left and there was (at the time) no Palestinian counter-claim of independence.

This leaves out a lot. The League of Nations gave the UK its mandate in full awareness of the UK's intention to create a nation for Jews in Palestine. All of the territories in the former Ottoman Empire were granted full independent statehood except Palestine.

It was bleedingly obvious to the League of Nations that the people who lived in Palestine objected to not being given the same right as everyone else in former Ottoman territories.

Are you resting your assertion there was no Palestinian counter-claim of independence on the perception that Palestine was empty land only inhabited by a few scattered goat-herders? There were nearly 2 million people living in what was arguably one of the brighter spots in the ME. It was more secular, industrial, educated and even multicultural. There were schools, universities, factories, ports for exporting their products and to receive immigrants and workers they needed to help build and grow their economy.  They certainly weren't inviting people from elsewhere to come and terrorize them and violently kick them out and take over.

[Venandi]

On 11/28/2024 at 6:22 PM, BlahTheCanuck said:

I highly doubt that, for example, if Israel removed the settlements in the West Bank or achieved a ceasefire in Gaza, the Palestinians would be willing to sit down and negotiate to solve the conflict.

That's the crux of the issue IMO. 

Hamas has religious objectives, not political ones... unless and until the world is willing to reduce the nation of Israel to a pile of rubble there is simply no negotiating with them.

For Canadiens who haven't spent a significant amount of time there (on both sides of the wall), it's a concept they simply can't relate to even though many of them are estranged from their own family members for manifestly trivial offences in comparison.

Watch right here, the same people can't even discuss this politely

The historical perspective always comes up and it's certainly interesting from an academic perspective, but, it remains largely irrelevant when viewed through a lens of metaphorical reality that considers weather, terrain, and opposing forces in the here and now. The Palestinians I talked to know exactly what happened to them, to their fathers, and to their grandfathers... the nuances of history are rarely discussed (in my case never) over sweet tea. 

It's the reason I've used the murderous neighbour analogy ever since my first UN tour there as a table top resolution exercise for history buffs... it's also the reason I never get an answer. That analogy is neither off topic or a red herring as long as Hamas remains the governing entity in Gaza.

There are 3 options with that neighbour when he's out on parole for fire bombing your house and poisoning your dog: you move out, he moves out, or you both fight it out.

Hamas has to go... and even then the task is daunting. 

From a year ago but a single year is like yesterday... or today... or even tomorrow:

 

Edited November 29, 2024 by Venandi

[taxme]

On 11/20/2024 at 7:35 PM, blackbird said:

"

If I forget thee, O Jerusalem… (Psalm 137)

It is the great moral disorder of our time.

Dear Israel is but a spit of earth on a huge globe. Three years after six million Jews were put to torture, humiliation, whippings, rape, medical experiment, starvation, and vile death, was it not surely time — time for all the nations of the Earth who had reached some moral understanding of life and government — to allow Jewish people time to rest, time to mourn, time to see what and who might be left of them.

To find just one period, just one time, just one place where and when they did not have to start up in the middle of the night when unfamiliar sounds disturbed, did not have to hear demagogues howling at them from street corners, or put up with the trendy, ignorant western pseudo-radicals shouting in bullhorns from library steps. To not see their shops and homes targets of mobs and slanders, their synagogues battered.

A time when they might gather on a bit of land where dogs were not set upon them; where children did not mock them; where passerby thugs did not attack their elders in the street; where Jews unique in their sorrow and pain could meet with some of their tormented doubles, if for nothing else but to share laments and profound griefs, generate solace by shared company and memory.

Ah, Jews. Ah, Israel."

Rex Murphy: Hatred of Israel is the great moral disorder of our time

Are you ever going to give up with your obsession with the chosen ones and Israel? Are they the only ones on earth that have ever suffered atrocities against them? Look at all of the suffering that the Ukrainian people have suffered under communist Stalin and now with the war going on between Russia and Ukraine. In both wars, Ukrainians have suffered and lost tens of millions of their own people but nobody seems to care. All we seem to be concerned and hear about is what is and has happened to the Jewish people ad nauseam since time began. Take a bloody break, will you. ☹️  

[taxme]

On 11/28/2024 at 2:22 PM, BlahTheCanuck said:

Most so-called 'criticisms of Israel' in this day and age are Palestinian and Iranian war propaganda, but there are legitimate grievances with some Israeli policies. With that said, I highly doubt that, for example, if Israel removed the settlements in the West Bank or achieved a ceasefire in Gaza, the Palestinians would be willing to sit down and negotiate to solve the conflict.

Also, the UN didn't 'give' the Jews a country - the Israelis declared independence over the territory themselves once the British left and there was (at the time) no Palestinian counter-claim of independence.

The Palestinians had no choice as to what was going to happen to them and their land. It was just taken away from them and that was it. No recourse. There is plenty of counter claim to fight for, but it will get them nowhere. The deed is done so live with it, Pal. ☹️

[BlahTheCanuck]

19 hours ago, eyeball said:

This leaves out a lot. The League of Nations gave the UK its mandate in full awareness of the UK's intention to create a nation for Jews in Palestine. All of the territories in the former Ottoman Empire were granted full independent statehood except Palestine.

It was bleedingly obvious to the League of Nations that the people who lived in Palestine objected to not being given the same right as everyone else in former Ottoman territories.

Are you resting your assertion there was no Palestinian counter-claim of independence on the perception that Palestine was empty land only inhabited by a few scattered goat-herders? There were nearly 2 million people living in what was arguably one of the brighter spots in the ME. It was more secular, industrial, educated and even multicultural. There were schools, universities, factories, ports for exporting their products and to receive immigrants and workers they needed to help build and grow their economy.  They certainly weren't inviting people from elsewhere to come and terrorize them and violently kick them out and take over.

No. Google what a declaration of independence actually means. It is a document that asserts independence of a polity over a defined territory which constitutes a state. The Israelis had one in 1948, while the Palestinians didn't (until 40 years later). The Palestinians of 1948 wanted to be controlled by Jordan+an Egyptian puppet state. A two state solution can create a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, but there was no Palestinian state in 1948 when Israel was declared, so the Palestinians can't try to take over a state that already exists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_independence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Declaration_of_Independence#:~:text=The Palestinian Declaration of Independence,1409) in Algiers%2C Algeria.

The story about whether or not they were 'violently kicked out' is more complicated - most of the Palestinians in the 1948 exodus were not violently kicked out, as a Palestinian representative to the UN at the time and the then Syrian Prime Minister admitted. There were definitely cases where they were violently expelled (such Lydda and Ramle), but most fled because of the war as refugees tend to do or calls from the Arab leaders to do so.  

The UK stopped being committed to establishing a Jewish state as soon as they took control of the territory. They made Palestinian leader al-Husseini their ally, their Peel Commission was going to give the majority of the territory to the Arabs, and they even forbade Jews from immigrating there in the 1930s. They then handed it over to the UN, and the UN failed to solve the issue. Either way none of this really matters from a legal standpoint, because the Palestinians could have declared their own state instead of trying to be controlled by Jordan.

Note that just because the Palestinians didn't declare a state back then doesn't mean they shouldn't have a state now - but they don't have a right to claim anything that was Israeli territory after the 1948 war.

Edited November 30, 2024 by BlahTheCanuck

[blackbird]

18 hours ago, taxme said:

Are you ever going to give up with your obsession with the chosen ones and Israel?

No.  What God says in his written revelation, the King James Bible, is all that matters.  What people that oppose God, his word, and Israel say is worthless and must be rejected.

"

1  Praise ye the LORD: for it is good to sing praises unto our God; for it is pleasant; and praise is comely. 2  The LORD doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel. 3  He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. {wounds: Heb. griefs} 4  He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. 5  Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite. {his…: Heb. of his understanding there is no number} 6  The LORD lifteth up the meek: he casteth the wicked down to the ground. 7  Sing unto the LORD with thanksgiving; sing praise upon the harp unto our God: 8  Who covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains. 9  He giveth to the beast his food, and to the young ravens which cry. 10  He delighteth not in the strength of the horse: he taketh not pleasure in the legs of a man. 11  The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy. 

12  Praise the LORD, O Jerusalem; praise thy God, O Zion. 13  For he hath strengthened the bars of thy gates; he hath blessed thy children within thee. 14  He maketh peace in thy borders, and filleth thee with the finest of the wheat. {He…: Heb. Who maketh thy border peace} {finest…: Heb. fat of wheat} 15  He sendeth forth his commandment upon earth: his word runneth very swiftly. 16  He giveth snow like wool: he scattereth the hoarfrost like ashes. 17  He casteth forth his ice like morsels: who can stand before his cold? 18  He sendeth out his word, and melteth them: he causeth his wind to blow, and the waters flow. 19  He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. {his word: Heb. his words} 20  He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD. "

Psalm 147 KJV

[eyeball]

13 hours ago, BlahTheCanuck said:

No.

Yes. There were nearly 2 million people already living there.

[BlahTheCanuck]

On 11/30/2024 at 12:56 PM, eyeball said:

Yes. There were nearly 2 million people already living there.

I did not deny this anywhere in my post. You asked where the idea came from that the Palestinians did not have a claim of independence over the territory in 1948. I explained that the Israelis had an official declaration of independence, while the Palestinians didn't. It has nothing to do with the amount of people living there at the time.

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, BlahTheCanuck said:

It has nothing to do with the amount of people living there at the time.

Which is as much to say it was empty land for the taking. And that's the pity. If the people living there had mattered things would have likely worked out a lot better for everyone.

Instead the world got...Naqba, including the Jews.

[Army Guy]

I just seen this today, Palestinians complaining about the price of cigarettes....but look around this market see any of those starving people we keep hearing about, they all look pretty feed, and clean for living in a war zone...

Just a question where does anyone get 50.00 for one cigarette, when there is no work or trade, i think the media has it wrong palestinians are still thriving even with all the restrictions...

See inside Gaza’s black market — where a single cigarette can cost $50 Cdn | Watch

[Deluge]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:36 PM, eyeball said:

A time when they might gather on a bit of land where dogs were not set upon them; where children did not mock them; where passerby thugs did not attack their elders in the street;

If only the Jews hadn't done this and worse to the people already living on that tiny sliver of land.

What a waste of sympathy.

Palestine needed its ass kicked, and now it's time for expulsion from that area. 

[Army Guy]

27 minutes ago, Deluge said:

Palestine needed its ass kicked, and now it's time for expulsion from that area. 

The question now is were do they get expulsed...not many countries want them,including Muslim countries, as they have already had their conflicts with them....and they don't want any more, as palestinians cause problems where ever they go....as we have seen first hand here in Canada...I'm sure if you put it to a vote in the UN all you would hear is crickets...maybe south africa as they seem to have taken up the plight of Hamas and their people... 

[Deluge]

5 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

The question now is were do they get expulsed...not many countries want them,including Muslim countries, as they have already had their conflicts with them....and they don't want any more, as palestinians cause problems where ever they go....as we have seen first hand here in Canada...I'm sure if you put it to a vote in the UN all you would hear is crickets...maybe south africa as they seem to have taken up the plight of Hamas and their people... 

They are a pain in the ass, but Israel isn't putting up with their shit. They'll have to find someplace less hostile, or just stay and fight. 

[Five of swords]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:35 PM, blackbird said:

"

If I forget thee, O Jerusalem… (Psalm 137)

It is the great moral disorder of our time.

Dear Israel is but a spit of earth on a huge globe. Three years after six million Jews were put to torture, humiliation, whippings, rape, medical experiment, starvation, and vile death, was it not surely time — time for all the nations of the Earth who had reached some moral understanding of life and government — to allow Jewish people time to rest, time to mourn, time to see what and who might be left of them.

To find just one period, just one time, just one place where and when they did not have to start up in the middle of the night when unfamiliar sounds disturbed, did not have to hear demagogues howling at them from street corners, or put up with the trendy, ignorant western pseudo-radicals shouting in bullhorns from library steps. To not see their shops and homes targets of mobs and slanders, their synagogues battered.

A time when they might gather on a bit of land where dogs were not set upon them; where children did not mock them; where passerby thugs did not attack their elders in the street; where Jews unique in their sorrow and pain could meet with some of their tormented doubles, if for nothing else but to share laments and profound griefs, generate solace by shared company and memory.

Ah, Jews. Ah, Israel."

Rex Murphy: Hatred of Israel is the great moral disorder of our time

Israel, and jews in general, are simply involved too much in power, and they push their own agenda aggressively. They don't really care what people need to be genocided for the convenience of jews, and they have the power to enact such genocides.

 

Obviously if jews minded their own business or did not have the power to exert their will over everyone, then nobody would be bothered by them. This is just universally true...a people are only noticed when they actually do stuff. Nobody cares about whatever agenda Welsh people have cause...Welsh people lack the power and perhaps the desire to have an actual agenda...so nobody is protesting against Wales. Duh.

 

Of course jews don't want anyone to know they ever exert their will because that offers some moral excuse for their adversaries. They would rather you think they are picked on for absolutely no reason. And because they control the media they can easily push that absurd narrative and dupes like you will believe it. 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Five of swords

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

The question now is were do they get expulsed...not many countries want them,including Muslim countries, as they have already had their conflicts with them....and they don't want any more, as palestinians cause problems where ever they go....as we have seen first hand here in Canada...

This is exactly how Canada felt about Jews when we helped create Israel. What a fine blend of irony and karma.

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I'm sure if you put it to a vote in the UN all you would hear is crickets...

And you figure Canada is in a good position to be an honest broker in any of this?

[Zeitgeist]

All of these problems are the result of who we’ve allowed to immigrate into Canada and an elitist university intelligentsia that has become untethered from reality and has forgotten history.  Ignorant activists have rewritten history and are indoctrinating youth.  

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

This is exactly how Canada felt about Jews when we helped create Israel. What a fine blend of irony and karma.

And you figure Canada is in a good position to be an honest broker in any of this?

I agree it is karma....but hey we said we were sorry...

No i don't, we can't even solve our own Native american issues....

[Army Guy]

7 hours ago, Five of swords said:

Israel, and jews in general, are simply involved too much in power, and they push their own agenda aggressively. They don't really care what people need to be genocided for the convenience of jews, and they have the power to enact such genocides.

 

Obviously if jews minded their own business or did not have the power to exert their will over everyone, then nobody would be bothered by them. This is just universally true...a people are only noticed when they actually do stuff. Nobody cares about whatever agenda Welsh people have cause...Welsh people lack the power and perhaps the desire to have an actual agenda...so nobody is protesting against Wales. Duh.

 

Of course jews don't want anyone to know they ever exert their will because that offers some moral excuse for their adversaries. They would rather you think they are picked on for absolutely no reason. And because they control the media they can easily push that absurd narrative and dupes like you will believe it. 

Your whole post is bullshit....It uncovers your racist thinking....what power base do the jews hold,globally...and can you blame them for pushing their agenda, WWII seen 6 million jews exterminated, I think that would have been  a great motivator...Why would they care about anyone else when the globe sat back and watched the wholesale slaughter of jews and did nothing....well Canada sent back ship loads of jews back top germany for the final solution because we did not want them here either....and yet we have open our arms to everyone else, one just has to watch the news to see the palestinian people in action, yet we say F8uck youto the jews....

 

[Five of swords]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Your whole post is bullshit....It uncovers your racist thinking....what power base do the jews hold,globally...and can you blame them for pushing their agenda, WWII seen 6 million jews exterminated, I think that would have been  a great motivator...Why would they care about anyone else when the globe sat back and watched the wholesale slaughter of jews and did nothing....well Canada sent back ship loads of jews back top germany for the final solution because we did not want them here either....and yet we have open our arms to everyone else, one just has to watch the news to see the palestinian people in action, yet we say F8uck youto the jews....

 

And why was Germany mad at the jews?

[taxme]

On 12/2/2024 at 9:28 AM, Army Guy said:

The question now is were do they get expulsed...not many countries want them,including Muslim countries, as they have already had their conflicts with them....and they don't want any more, as palestinians cause problems where ever they go....as we have seen first hand here in Canada...I'm sure if you put it to a vote in the UN all you would hear is crickets...maybe south africa as they seem to have taken up the plight of Hamas and their people... 

Why the phk does anyone in the rest of the world want to give a shit about what happens in that tiny little shitty country called Israel. I live in Canada, so why should i give a chit about what happens to Jews or the Arabs? Let the two of them go at each other and may the best people win. The only thing that saves and keeps Israel alive is America. W/o Americas aid to Israel, Israel would have lost the war with the Arabs a long time ago. This just shows the power and control that Israel has over America. As Ariel Sharon once said, and i quote, "we own America". Interesting words, isn't it? 😁

[taxme]

On 12/2/2024 at 10:03 AM, Five of swords said:

Israel, and jews in general, are simply involved too much in power, and they push their own agenda aggressively. They don't really care what people need to be genocided for the convenience of jews, and they have the power to enact such genocides.

 

Obviously if jews minded their own business or did not have the power to exert their will over everyone, then nobody would be bothered by them. This is just universally true...a people are only noticed when they actually do stuff. Nobody cares about whatever agenda Welsh people have cause...Welsh people lack the power and perhaps the desire to have an actual agenda...so nobody is protesting against Wales. Duh.

 

Of course jews don't want anyone to know they ever exert their will because that offers some moral excuse for their adversaries. They would rather you think they are picked on for absolutely no reason. And because they control the media they can easily push that absurd narrative and dupes like you will believe it. 

The chosen ones can do whatever they want to because they know that they can do whatever they want to. They have become the pampered pooches in society. Their constant nonsense that they are always being picked on and hated by the the rest of the world and that we should all feel empathy for them is just a pile of excrement. It is the rest of the world that needs empathy. Just saying.