Canada is one of few western countries that have a failing totalitarian health care system

[Moonlight Graham]

24 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I think maybe people bent on eradicating as much socialization of our healthcare as possible must have a misguided sense of what private in a public/private mix means. The sole medical clinic where I live for example, like many around BC I suspect, is privately owned and operated by doctors who are under contract to the province. The same with specialists I visit in larger centers. I doubt it's very different in France as it would be in any public/private healthcare system that is universal.

It's the universality and socialization of the system that just endlessly rankles people here in Canada and most notably our right wing. It's probably due to the proximity of the US and it's far less universal system and imagining the grass is greener over there.

The problem is Canada can never have a system that works like in Europe.  We're neighbours to a massive and rich country that has a private system.  That's why so many of our doctors and nurses have left for the US:  they can get paid more in the US.  If our doctors/nurses/surgeons leave, and a province just decides not to pay them enough to compete or fund the system adequately, Canadians are stuck with no choice.  It becomes a human rights issue IMO.  That's a problem with public monopolies.  And you can't just force them to stay, we're not Cuba, people have a Charter Right to leave the country if they want.

I have no issues with a public insurance system in theory, with the caveat that its funded and managed properly, which is often an oxymoron.  Manage the system and budget better and/or raise taxes.

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

We're neighbours to a massive and rich country that has a private system.  That's why so many of our doctors and nurses have left for the US:  they can get paid more in the US. 

Yes well, the US ranks last in terms of healthcare amongst its peers.

https://www.ajmc.com/view/us-health-care-system-ranks-last-overall-among-other-high-income-countries

They're just better at siphoning off other people's doctors and nurses.

If my wife and I lived in the US we'd probably be putting the house up for sale to pay for this week's treatment... between this and what we went thru during COVID we'd be close to being broke for sure.

Edited November 3, 2024 by eyeball

[Moonlight Graham]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

We've been lucky this way before. We were both diagnosed with things that required  surgery during COVID with little time to spare or else.

But even little things, like the time I gashed my finger recently and was in and out of the local ER stitched up and back to work within an hour leave me feeling like there's a lot of other things I could be complaining about.

Yes it sucks that there's not enough doctors here we have a Nurse Practitioner in our clinic and a doctor in our ER. Like every other business around here - there's a help wanted sign permanently hanging in the window.

Just keep in mind this hasn't been typical in Canada.  Anecdotes aren't much for evidence:

https://macleans.ca/society/health/canada-er-wait-times/

[Moonlight Graham]

  

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yes well, the US ranks last in terms of healthcare amongst its peers.

https://www.ajmc.com/view/us-health-care-system-ranks-last-overall-among-other-high-income-countries

They're just better at siphoning off other people's doctors and nurses.

I never said I wanted the US system.  Their insurance systems are evil.  They can refuse you for preexisting conditions and not cover certain required services.  Their insurance regulations suck.

Edited November 3, 2024 by Moonlight Graham

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Just keep in mind this hasn't been typical in Canada.  Anecdotes aren't much for evidence:

Perhaps not but it's a shared experience where I live. In a very small town the chances of running into a crowd at the local ER is really low. If you get sent to a bigger city hospital it's by ambulance or helicopter. I guess there's more than one way to jump the queue.

 

[eyeball]

30 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I never said I wanted the US system.

Perhaps not but the desire to emulate the American system is common amongst the more anti-social healthcare types. The lack of belief that an ideological based solution works for anything just naturally goes hand in hand with the faith that market based solutions will solve everything.

If that were the case we'd sell war bonds to fund the military. Why not a mix of public/private funding for that? Look how dear the issue of choice is to healthcare privateers after all? Put their money where their principles are.

[eyeball]

35 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

 I never said I wanted the US system.  Their insurance systems are evil.  They can refuse you for preexisting conditions and not cover certain required services.  Their insurance regulations suck.

Americans like to add a weight of morality to many things that is not only unnecessary but costly.

This really spilled over into attitudes that the idea of dentalcare ran afoul of in Canada for so long. Bad teeth after all were the fault of the patient's poor hygiene,bad habits due to their poor moral character.

Dentalcare is just too woke for  conservative sensibilities. Like I've said only a deliberately and honestly left leaning political party could ever make it possible to the extent it is now in Canada.

Hopefully this motivates provinces to phase out their dentalcare programs and direct their funding to their doctor/nurse shortages.

[blackbird]

7 hours ago, suds said:

I agree with Fox. The WHO has rated France's system as the best overall healthcare system in the world. It costs a bit more than ours as a percentage of GDP, but also includes dental and prescription drugs. However, everything is not free and the hospitals are both publicly and privately run. Do you figure your NDP would be interested in taking a look at something like that? I sort of doubt it but I could be wrong.

The NDP are largely influenced and controlled by the big unions.  The unions are dead set against any kind of mixture of public and private health care because it threatens their union power over the system.  Therefore the NDP will never agree to any kind of public/private system.

[Gaétan]

On 11/1/2024 at 10:20 PM, blackbird said:

This system denies freedom of choice and there is no choice to purchase private health insurance and get treatment.  Anyone may be stuck on a long waiting list and in fact die waiting.  So instead of fixing the failing system by allowing private care, the government offers assisted death to anyone who can't bear it anymore (MAID).  The Marxist ideology is everyone should receive the same poor medical care.  That's Socialist or Marxist ideology.  Everyone must suffer equally.  That's the theory.  But in fact the system doesn't work that way either.  Some, just by good fortune, have a family doctor and millions don't.  Some get some kind of illness such as cancer and end up on long waiting lists and possibly die.  Others don't get that particular disease or are in  different location where the waiting list is much shorter.   There is nothing equal about the universal health care system in Canada.  The only thing one might say is that it is failing equally in a general sense everywhere in Canada.

This makes it a kind of Marxist health care system.

This information below about the options in other countries came from:   SecondStreet.org

You don't know anything, health problems are caused by your corrupt capitalist system. To begin with, there is almost nothing that can be eaten in a grocery store except for what is in the little organic corner.

[I am Groot]

On 11/2/2024 at 8:47 AM, ExFlyer said:

You can certainly buy private health insurance. You can go to private clinics and get your medical issues resolved. The TV is inundated with medical insurance advertisements LOL

No, you certainly can not. Not unless you're in Quebec. There are a limited number of medical services that can be provided for fees, and they do not include anything covered by government insurance. I belong to a private clinic. It costs me $4k per year. What they provide for that is vastly better SERVICE than a public doctor. You get appointments quickly, without crowded waiting rooms, and long waits in their comfortable little waiting room. Your doctor has the time to deal with whatever your complaint is and doesn't try to rush through anything. Annual physicals take 2hrs, for example. They're pretty good at getting you in to see some specialists and getting some tests faster than a family doctor, but there can still be long waits. If you want something like a surgical consult, for example, you'll have to wait a long time or go to Montreal. Which I have done.

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2024 by I am Groot

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

No, you certainly can not. Not unless you're in Quebec. There are a limited number of medical services that can be provided for fees, and they do not include anything covered by government insurance. I belong to a private clinic. It costs me $4k per year. What they provide for that is vastly better SERVICE than a public doctor. You get appointments quickly, without crowded waiting rooms, and long waits in their comfortable little waiting room. Your doctor has the time to deal with whatever your complaint is and doesn't try to rush through anything. Annual physicals take 2hrs, for example. They're pretty good at getting you in to see some specialists and getting some tests faster than a family doctor, but there can still be long waits. If you want something like a surgical consult, for example, you'll have to wait a long time or go to Montreal. Which I have done.

 

 

 

well.... funny story there.

You actually CAN go to a private clinic and pay out of your pocket.... as long as it's not in your own province. 

There are many people in BC for example who travel to clinics in alberta to get hip or knee operations done on their own dime.  It would be illegal for those clinics to do that for albertans, and it would be illegal for a british columbian to go to such a clinic in bc. 

If the market wants. it finds a way. We really need to change the system

[ExFlyer]

49 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

No, you certainly can not. .....

 

 

 

For your information

https://www.coverme.com/health-insurance.html?cid=CA-EN_ML_IS_PS_GOOGLEADS_ALWAYS-ON_COVERMEHD_GEN_text_-_-_B2C_AQCTR_333397344_-&gad_source=1&gclsrc=ds&province=ON&agecode=0

https://www.surehealth.ca/pages/private-health-plans.html?psafe_param=1&gad_source=1

https://www.sunlife.ca/en/health/personal-health-insurance/

https://bluecross.ca/

https://www.allianzcare.com/en/support/health-and-wellness/national-healthcare-systems/healthcare-in-canada.html

 

and mor.e....

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, blackbird said:

The NDP will never agree to any kind of public/private system.

What do you call it when you go see a doctor in the clinic he owns but instead of handing you the invoice he sends it to Victoria?

Let me guess...Marxism?

 

Edited November 3, 2024 by eyeball

[herbie]

The opposition to dental care inclusion is mostly a result of decades on insurance companies brainwashing people to think they are different issues.
Isn't it basic capitalism to instead of selling you an extra insurance when they can sell you two?

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, herbie said:

The opposition to dental care inclusion is mostly a result of decades on insurance companies brainwashing people to think they are different issues.

The opposition is the cost. Not to mention the disorder. To do this effectively you would make it part of the current medical system which is administered by the provinces. And in fact most of the provinces had dental care for people that couldn't afford it.

But because Trudeau and the MVP wanted it for political reasons they tried to create a standalone national program administered by the federal government. And like every program they try and create is turning into a financial disaster.

For the amount of money that they've spent and will have to spend, they could have bought full health care insurance coverage for all of the people who currently do not have it through their work. I mean everybody, not just old or young people. And I mean full coverage including medical pills eyewear etc, like my Healthcare package through work.

Instead a tiny handful of people who weren't covered already got a small amount of coverage. It's a complete joke. A 4 billion dollar waste at a time when we just can't afford waste.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

What do you call it when you go see a doctor in the clinic he owns but instead of handing you the invoice he sends it to Victoria?

Let me guess...Marxism?

 

Let me guess.  The government still controls how the doctor runs his office or clinic and decides how much he is paid.  The government together with the medical associations determines how much doctors make, how many doctors are trained and brought into the system.  Everything is still basically controlled by the government.  Is that Marxism or a form of Marxism?  Government controls it.

Edited November 3, 2024 by blackbird

[CdnFox]

Just now, blackbird said:

Let me guess.  The government still controls how the doctor runs his office or clinic and decides how much he is paid.  The government together with the medical associations determines how much doctors make, how many doctors or trained and brought into the system.  Everything is still basically controlled by the government.  Is that Marxism or a form of Marxism?  Government controls it.

It's not a form of Marxism. That's not what Marxism is. It would be a form of market socialism

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The government together with the medical associations determines how much doctors make...

Associations of, wait for it...doctors.

8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Everything is still basically controlled by the government. 

The entire world is basically controlled by governments...get over it.

In the meantime, contracts 'control' the government as much as they 'control' the doctors. You make it sound like doctors don't have any rights in a totalitarian state - they're simply told what to do or else.

It's absurd how far removed your thinking is from reality.

12 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

The government still controls how the doctor runs his office or clinic...

With surveillance cameras or a government supervisor?

Our clinic has 3 - 5 people working in it. What sort of controls do you think it takes?

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

 

With surveillance cameras or a government supervisor?

 

No they haven't quite gotten around to adopting your bizarre suggestion yet that all government people should have to wear body cameras   

And you appear to have quoted me but I didn't actually say any of that stuff

Back to your old tricks of fake quotes for people I see? Pretty typical.

By the way when the government exercises that much control over something it is actually socialism by definition. You're very favorite stuff!   

[nibu]

i am not sure private is the answer. maybe bore public is the answer. the reason i say is i come from india where they used the concept of giving it almost entirely to private and its a shithole. with private companies popping up the priority will always be profit. if u r not profitable at any point in ur life u wont get any care. with public the idea is wellbeing of citizen. as for your story blackbird, the heart is an extremely critical organ and asking doctors to immediately provide service for it is hard to gauge or deliver. what if they gave u want u asked and u died. the idea is conservative treatment. sure they could do as u say and u have great health but medicine is tricky, each person responds differently, and u cud be in worse position to the extent u wont be able to type on net. as for your story of a relative also going thru it , like i said its not easy to fix heart problems given how critical it is and risks associated with playing around it. so the chances of things going wrong is very high.....you could also have been very unlucky and a standalone case and hence i understand ur frustration. however if we see a lot of people say this it would be concerning. during my limited time here, i havent heard of too many horror cases in canada. the healthcare in india taken over by private is pure horror. 10 percent of indians who have money will tell u its the best while the other 90 percent have so bad health they cant even speak.every day is a nightmare for them.

[blackbird]

34 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Associations of, wait for it...doctors.

The entire world is basically controlled by governments...get over it.

In the meantime, contracts 'control' the government as much as they 'control' the doctors. You make it sound like doctors don't have any rights in a totalitarian state - they're simply told what to do or else.

It's absurd how far removed your thinking is from reality.

With surveillance cameras or a government supervisor?

Our clinic has 3 - 5 people working in it. What sort of controls do you think it takes?

The truth, which you conveniently ignore, is the government still controls the health care system and doesn't allow private care to operate independently with private insurance.  This government only control is unique among western nations as most allow some sort of mixture of public and private care.  This is autocratic or totalitarian.  In that sense it has shades of Marxist ideology.  While not a pure Marxist system, it leans that way.  Only government knows what's best (according to the left wing Socialist mentality).  You like it because that is your mentality.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

It's not a form of Marxism. That's not what Marxism is. It would be a form of market socialism

It has shades of Marxism because in Canada the government controls the health care system and does not allow a true mix of public and private health care with private insurance.  Government (Marxist type) knows what is best for you.  We have an authoritarian type of government and and public health care system, which is failing us.  

The strange part is the public system delivers vastly different qualities of care depending on what is available in one's location and how fortunate one is.  Some have a family doctor and many don't.  Some might get fairly reasonable care while others might die on waiting lists or have no family doctor.  The quality of care varies widely.  There is no such thing as equal care for everyone.

Edited November 3, 2024 by blackbird

[blackbird]

45 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The entire world is basically controlled by governments...get over it.

True in a very limited sense.  It doesn't tell anywhere near the truth.  Some governments are brutal dictatorships, some are democratic to varying degrees.  Your statement shows your ignorance about how the world operates.  ....get over it.

Edited November 3, 2024 by blackbird

[blackbird]

46 minutes ago, eyeball said:

doctors don't have any rights in a totalitarian state - they're simply told what to do or else.

The system is supposed to exist for the benefit of patients first.  In Canada the system puts the unions and medical associations first.  Ever thought of that?

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The truth, which you conveniently ignore, is the government still controls the health care system and doesn't allow private care to operate independently with private insurance.

Society decided the principle of universality, which means everyone gets the same treatment, should be what guides our healthcare systems decades ago. The government is simply doing what society wants, not the other way around.

You want special treatment and think your money should entitle you to that treatment.

You'll just have to leave the system and go to another country for that. Don't worry, no one will try to stop you.