The sad state of Canadian leadership concerning Israel and the middle east

[WestCanMan]

On 10/12/2024 at 1:58 PM, Old Guy said:

on at least one occasion visited a Palestinian refugee camp.

What's a "Palestinian refugee camp"? 

FYI there were only 700,000 Palestinians that were forced out during British partition in 1948. That's less than one-tenth the number of Sikhs and Hindus that were forced out of the region now known as Pakistan when the Brits partitioned India less than 1 year earlier. About 8,000,000 were forced out by the muslims in Pakistan. 

I get that 700,000 displaced people seems like a lot, but the Pakistanis killed more than that many Sikhs and Hindus. And now zero muslims care about all of those displace Sikhs and Hindus. 

FYI there's no such thing as a "Palestinian refugee camp" because those people are not refugees. They are political pawns, being used to foment hatred, you silly little propaganda victim.

Germany alone allowed more than 700,000 refugees to live there when islamic state was committing genocide during Obama's presidency. If the Palestinians were truly refugees then they would have resettled at some point in the last 75 years.

[CITIZEN_2015]

On 11/2/2024 at 3:24 PM, suds said:

So if a piece of Germany was offered to European Jews, would you have stayed? Some did regardless. In most cases they left and went to the U.S. or Palestine. There are always different reasons for people doing what they do. I don't think I'd want to stay  where a mass genocide of my people took place unless there were no other reasonable alternatives. After the war ended, the Mandate for Palestine was still in effect which had already given Transjordan to the Arabs, and was to create a national homeland for Jews in Palestine alongside the Palestinians. If I were old I might choose to stay or go to the U.S.  If I were younger and was willing to make a new start in life, I'd choose Israel. Or maybe you don't believe the Jews should have had a choice in the matter?

Germans forced out of their home in that piece of Germany and given to Jews. The German people, all of them were responsible for Genocide. Yes they would have stayed.

[taxme]

On 11/1/2024 at 12:16 PM, blackbird said:

I guess you could say the north American natives owned north America then and we the white people of European descent invaded their land and took over.

Well, i guess then that all of the white folk of North America should start to think about exiting NA very soon and begin to head back to Europe now? When do you have plans to leave? And that goes also for all of the so called people of color to pack it in also. It was the Jews of Europe that moved to Palestine and stole the land from the Palestinians, right? The Jews should stat to head back from whence they came also. 

And i guess that the Indians will be in big time trouble when all we white folk and non-white folk leave NA. What are they going to do when the money stops flowing in and all their toys start to break down? Normally, they do not fix things, just throw everything aside when it breaks down. At least the white folk did something with the land in NA when they came to NA. It looks to me like the people in the moving business are going to make a lot of money soon. LOL.

The Palestinians will be happy when the Jews are gone from Palestine, and the native Indians should be happy when the white folk are gone. I will go live in Russia when i leave! 😇

[taxme]

On 11/1/2024 at 2:01 PM, suds said:

Xenophobia has been part of the human condition since the beginning of recorded history. Today, Christians are persecuted to some extent in over three quarters of the world's countries. Muslims are a close second. It's persecution motivated by religious identity. It's fair to say that Jews have been the victims of that same xenophobia. But unlike Christians and Muslims they had no safe retreat until 1948. I hope this helps.

The difference is that the Jews have been thrown out of many countries and which had nothing to do with their religion. It was the way they treated their hosts in those countries that brought them scorn and hatred and exile. I hope that answer helps you. 

[herbie]

I must admit my error.

I thought you were merely a fascist. Your last post reveals that is too left for you.

[I am Groot]

On 10/11/2024 at 3:38 PM, herbie said:

Good God read something other than Post newspapers.
There's a big difference between criticism of Netanyahu's excesses and antisemitism and not taking measures to stop the spread of hostilities is what would be immoral.
 

How do we 'stop the spread of hostilities"? Because they all seem to be initiated by the Muslim hordes incited by Iran's fundamentalist terrorist government. Try and get the Jews not to fight back?

On 10/11/2024 at 10:33 PM, herbie said:

Everyone knows that. But reasonable people also judge on how you conduct war. And being a minor player country that shows how different peoples can live civilly is all we can do, we can't make them.

The normal death rate of civilians in urban warfare is 10-1. That is, ten civilians die for every fighter. In Gaza it's more like 1-1. Israel is taking unprecedented steps to minimize civilian casualties, steps that damage its own efforts and cause deaths to its own soldiers. No other army in history has called ahead and dropped leaflets to let people know what area they are going to attack next. 

Edited November 10, 2024 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

On 10/11/2024 at 11:17 PM, Old Guy said:

The problem is Zionism coupled with a religious belief that God gave them all the land between the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea.

That is not a problem. It has never BEEN a problem. If Israel had wanted to push all the Palestinians out of that land or kill them all off they could easily have done that sometimes in the last 75 years. They have not. 

On 10/11/2024 at 11:17 PM, Old Guy said:

Zionists believe  its theirs and that they don't have to share.

No, bud. Muslims believe all that land is THEIRS and don't want to share. They believe Israelis are on their land. And the UN and other Arab states keeps encouraging Palestinians to think of themselves as 'refugees' despite having lived where they are now for several generations. 

On 10/11/2024 at 11:17 PM, Old Guy said:

Their over reach is astounding and has reached the point where they are bombing UN Peace Keepers around the Red line. 

Even the Chinese at one of those UN sites have sent video of Hezbollah setting up and firing rockets into Israel from just outside their base. Incoming fire sometimes goes astray. The UN are not peacekeepers and serve no purpose there. Their job was to disarm Hezbollah and they have been completely and utterly ineffective. They should just leave.

On 10/12/2024 at 3:12 PM, eyeball said:

The league of nations had no business giving it.

Either we have international law as decided by multinational organizations like the League of Nations, or we have the law of might makes right. In either event, Israel has what it has.

[I am Groot]

On 10/12/2024 at 4:34 PM, Old Guy said:

Unless the Zionists are prepared to kill every Palestinian child in Gaza and the West Bank they are creating a generation that will grow up knowing that their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, friends were killed when a missile or a bomb demolished their home.  What do you think they'll want to do when they grow up?

The same as they do after going through schools run by Hamas, who teach them to hate Jews, who teach them the Jews stole their land, who teach them it is their duty to fight and die and achieve martyrdom to destroy Israel. You understand this is what they felt BEFORE the current hostilities, right? As demonstrated by how they acted like ravening rabid animals when they crossed into Israel. The glee they showed as they murdered children, and raped and tortured women.

On 10/12/2024 at 4:34 PM, Old Guy said:

I honestly don't think you have any concept of what it might be like growing up in a prison.

Gaza was not a prison. That's an Iranian talking point. No one in prison gets to collect thousands of rockets and missiles and tens of thousands of AK47s, RPGs and grenades. 

 

On 10/12/2024 at 4:34 PM, Old Guy said:

Palestinians used to have a homeland which has been seriously shrunk and which they have to ask permission to leave. 

Even if they had independence they'd have to ask permission to go into Israel or Egypt. 
And it's not a 'homeland'. They never even thought of themselves as anything but Arabs until the Russians started calling them Palestinians in the 1960s. They have never been a country. They were just Arabs, the same as those who roamed through Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt until it was divided up into countries a hundred years or so.

 

[I am Groot]

On 10/12/2024 at 4:58 PM, Old Guy said:

In 1967 I spent 4 months travelling through Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and Iran. I was living in Jordan when the six day war broke out. I realize a visit that short doesn't count as research or make me an expert but the people I met were good people, I visited them in their homes and on at least one occasion visited a Palestinian refugee camp. The fact is that I believe that the Zionists will never agree to a two state solution and will never stop until they have all of Palestine.

Not now. Why would they? The Palestinians voted for a terrorist group that promised to destroy Israel. They launched the most horrific and barbarous attack on a Western country in modern history, showing us just what hate was in their hearts and souls. And they've promised to do it again as soon as they can until Israel is destroyed.

If the Palestinians were given their full independence tomorrow Hamas would be in charge. They would import vast amounts of heavy weapons from Iran along with Revolutionary Guards to help them build up a large army and then launch another genocidal attack on Israel. This is not just speculation. This is what THEY say they would do. Why would Israel allow that? And in case you wonder, none of the surrounding Arab states want them to be independent either, despite their public protestations of sympathy. 

[I am Groot]

On 10/12/2024 at 5:28 PM, Old Guy said:

Antisemitism is defined as hostility or discrimination towards Jewish people.  I have critiqued the way the Zionists have conducted the war. Specifically their over-reach. That is not antisemitism

It is when you criticize them for things they haven't done and ignore the actions of other states who have done much worse. If Israel was fighting the way the Saudis fought the Houthis in Yemen, or the way the Syrians, Russians and Turks are fighting and bombing in Syria, or how ISIS fought in Iraq and Syria there would be ten or twenty times more civilian casualties. As there have been in those countries. But you don't care about how many Muslims are killed by Muslims. You only care when Jews are involved, right?

[I am Groot]

On 10/12/2024 at 7:54 PM, Old Guy said:

Do you actually believe that all Muslim Arabs are inter-changeable with one another?

No, but if you see PEW research polls that show 90%+ of people in almost every Muslim nation hate Jews you get a pretty good idea of their cultural beliefs.

On 10/12/2024 at 7:54 PM, Old Guy said:

Perhaps you are the one who needs to read some history and not the history written by some Zionist apologist. Zionists began their attack against Palestinians before they were officially recognized as a country. 

And Arabs were slaughtering Jews before then, too, even when the British were still in charge.

 

On 10/12/2024 at 8:08 PM, August1991 said:

I disagree.

Israel has no support.

=====

But far more important, we in the West do not want war.

From Quebec, maybe. But Quebecers would just shrug if some other nation invaded Quebec and took over. Until, of course, they refused to force everyone to speak French anymore. Then they'd riot, be shot down in the streets, and surrender, as all good Frenchmen do.

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Either we have international law as decided by multinational organizations like the League of Nations, or we have the law of might makes right. In either event, Israel has what it has.

The same United Nations General Assembly made it patently clear to Israel with Resolution 194 that Palestinians were to be allowed back or compensated for what was taken from them after the Arab Israeli War in 1949.

In this case I expect you're going to say the UN had no business telling Israel how to behave like a civilized nation. 

Nowadays of course might is pretty much the accepted standard for getting things done everywhere you look.

[I am Groot]

On 10/12/2024 at 10:46 PM, Army Guy said:

Tell me which nations support Israel other than US and the UK....

Poland is a pretty damned strong supporter. So is Germany. The UK is still a supporter, though less now that Labour is in because Muslims vote Labour. Basically almost all right-wing parties in Europe support Israel while the Left often supports the terrorists. In the middle east, opposition to Israel has been toned well down by many Arab countries wary of Iran. Many, like the Saudis, Egyptians, and Jordanians are actually helping Israel under the table. The last thing they want is Iran extending its influence by getting an independent Palestine. They're also delighted to see Israel pounding Hezbollah. So are lots of Lebanese. 

[Army Guy]

5 minutes ago, eyeball said:

 

Nowadays of course might is pretty much the accepted standard for getting things done everywhere you look.

When has it not been the standard, since man has be able to swing a club, it has been this way...it is why we as a nation are so weak... 

[I am Groot]

On 10/13/2024 at 4:33 PM, Old Guy said:

A farmer leaving his village to tend his olive grove may very well have to produce his papers.  He may also run into a militant settler and be beaten up or even killed. The IDF can and does enter the West Bank  in force without Palestinian permission. Comparing the border between countries is completely different because Israel occupies all of Palestine through its control of where and when Palestinian people can go.  

Huge numbers of Palestinians used to work in Israel proper. And Israeli businessmen were starting to move into the Palestinian territories to set up factories and other businesses to employ Palestinians. There were few checkpoints. Then came the Intifadah, largely targeting Israeli civilians, launching suicidal attacks at schools, restaurants, bus stations, planting bombs everywhere, stabbing old men in mosques and blowing up commuters on their way to work. Gradually, the fences and walls went up and the Palestinians found it harder and harder to get into Israel. The businessmen who had been setting up shop in Palestine territory left.

I think the Palestinian territories would be vastly better place to live today were it not for the intifada and the terrorism.

[Army Guy]

5 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Poland is a pretty damned strong supporter. So is Germany. The UK is still a supporter, though less now that Labour is in because Muslims vote Labour. Basically almost all right-wing parties in Europe support Israel while the Left often supports the terrorists. In the middle east, opposition to Israel has been toned well down by many Arab countries wary of Iran. Many, like the Saudis, Egyptians, and Jordanians are actually helping Israel under the table. The last thing they want is Iran extending its influence by getting an independent Palestine. They're also delighted to see Israel pounding Hezbollah. So are lots of Lebanese. 

It is one thing to say your a supporter, but it seems US has supplied arms, even position warships and manpower to Israel, UK has supplied Naval ships....and perhaps some military supplies but who other than those two do that and above the table...plus maybe a few other coalition naval ves, from various other nations.....but the list is short....

 

 

 

[I am Groot]

On 10/13/2024 at 12:16 AM, eyeball said:

So you would have just submitted, bowed your head and moved out of your house at gunpoint with your deed to the land your family had lived in for generations in your pocket and sucked it up?

I'd resist myself but that's just me I guess.

Spare me. Most of those who fled Israel in 1948 did so at the urging of surrounding Arab states who assured they they'd be able to go back after they crushed Israel. Then they assured them they shouldn't dare go back or the Jews would murder them. Then they settled them in refugee camps but refused to accept them as citizens even after multiple generations. Too bad, so sad. The Arabs who stayed where they were didn't lose their land. They're now Israeli citizens.

On 10/13/2024 at 1:26 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Why, Israel is not killing enough innocent people in Gaza and Lebanon that they need even more lethal weapons?

Do you know any period in history where an army took such are to not harm civilians that they contacted them ahead of time to tell them where they were going to attack next and told them to leave? Ever? Anywhere?

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286

[I am Groot]

On 10/13/2024 at 7:33 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

They are not only killing Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists but also have killed over 11000 women and children who these fu*king terrorists used as human shields.

Are you operating under the illusion, like these silly college kids, that this is the first time in history civilians have died in a war? I thought you more worldly than that. Civilians always die in wars, especially in urban wars. 350,000 in Yemen and counting and no one cares. 650,000 and counting in Syria and no one cares. Over 14,000,000 Sudanese forced out of their homes by fighting, hundreds of women committing suicide to avoid mass rapes, countless dead and no one cares. Over a million dead in Iraq. Tens of thousands dead in Libya. No one cares. 

How many civilians died when the Allies bombarded French towns and cities as they attacked? How many Italian civilians died when the British and Canadians were fighting their way up from Sicily with the Americans? How many died in Seoul when the Americans took it back from the North Koreans? What about in Vietnam? In Kuwait? Afghanistan? 

Israel is doing its best. What would you have them do? Just stop and let Hamas rebuild and rearm?

On 10/13/2024 at 8:53 PM, suds said:

I was looking at a CBC poll.  Most Canadians support Israel but they also support a Palestinian state (as do I but not the river to the sea kind).  The thing is.... is it just a cop-out or can you have both?

What do you imagine an independent Palestinian state would be like?

On 10/14/2024 at 9:57 AM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Remove the head of octopus and the legs will die soon but jeep cutting the legs killing many women and children in the process, the octopus will grow new legs.

The Americans won't let them smash Iran's military, government or oil supplies.

[I am Groot]

On 10/29/2024 at 7:41 PM, taxme said:

That shitty little country called Israel is going to start WW3 if nobody tries to stop that shitty little good for nothing country. Israel bombing Iran is asking for big time trouble.

Iran fired hundreds of missiles at Israel. Why wouldn't Israel have the right to respond? Because you don't like Jews?

On 10/29/2024 at 7:41 PM, taxme said:

Russia has sent battle ships in the area to protect Iran

Russia has no battleships. It barely has a navy. It lost a lot of what they did have to Ukraine, who don't even have a navy!

 

 

Edited November 10, 2024 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

On 10/29/2024 at 7:49 PM, taxme said:

We must all bend the knee to Israel. Israel is nothing more than a shitty little country out in the desert and produces and offers nothing to the world except sadness and sorrow and mayhem. What the phk is Israel really good for anyway?

Since 1966, thirteen Israelis have been awarded the Nobel Prize, the most honorable award in various fields including chemistry, economics, literature and peace. Israel has more Nobel Prizes per capita than Germany, the United States and France. It has more laureates, in real numbers, than India, China and Spain.

On 10/29/2024 at 7:49 PM, taxme said:

Anyone here able to tell me as to why Canadians and Americans have to die for Israel because that is what is going to happen if no one tries to shut Israel down soon.

Your friends in Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran have tried to 'shut them down' and that hasn't worked out to well. You going to volunteer to go have a try?

 

 

On 10/29/2024 at 9:52 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I can tell you why. The very strong very powerful Zionist lobbyists in Washington and Canada and UK.

In a war between civilization and barbarism, I always choose civilization. I don't need some propaganda campaign to convince me of what is right. I don't have any difficulty recognizing the enemies of civilization. 

[I am Groot]

On 11/1/2024 at 2:17 PM, taxme said:

)Why were Jews persecuted so much? What did they do to be persecuted so much? J

 

[I am Groot]

On 11/2/2024 at 3:44 PM, WestCanMan said:

What's a "Palestinian refugee camp"? 

FYI there were only 700,000 Palestinians that were forced out during British partition in 1948. That's less than one-tenth the number of Sikhs and Hindus that were forced out of the region now known as Pakistan when the Brits partitioned India less than 1 year earlier. About 8,000,000 were forced out by the muslims in Pakistan. 

What the Arabs never mention is some 800,000 Jews were forced out of surrounding Arab countries around that time, too. Israel took them all in and gave them citizenship. The Arab states refused to take in the Palestinians who were their co-religionists, who had the same language, history, culture, values and ethnicity as they do.

On 11/8/2024 at 3:09 PM, taxme said:

The difference is that the Jews have been thrown out of many countries and which had nothing to do with their religion. It was the way they treated their hosts in those countries that brought them scorn and hatred and exile. I hope that answer helps you. 

Mostly it was because they loaned money to the leaders who then didn't want to pay it back.

[I am Groot]

30 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

It is one thing to say your a supporter, but it seems US has supplied arms, even position warships and manpower to Israel, UK has supplied Naval ships....and perhaps some military supplies but who other than those two do that and above the table...plus maybe a few other coalition naval ves, from various other nations.....but the list is short....

The way the West let its military forces deteriorate after the Soviets broke up does not leave a lot of weapons ready to be shipped off the anyone. We all know what shape Canada's military is in, but most of Europe has been in roughly the same shape.. Europe, excluding Turkey, could not stave off a Russian attack without US help. They have few ground forces, and their stocks of artillery, tank shells and missiles are very low. Canada has almost none. All of them have put in big orders but it takes years to start getting supplies. All the arms companies are building new factories and putting on new shifts at existing ones but it takes time.

More to the point, Israel's military and its stockpiles are better than anyone in Europe has. It's that basic. The only ones who can give them anything they want are the Americans. 

 

[I am Groot]

51 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The same United Nations General Assembly made it patently clear to Israel with Resolution 194 that Palestinians were to be allowed back or compensated for what was taken from them after the Arab Israeli War in 1949.

No. The UN is not the League of Nations. The UN is an antisemtic organization. There are 50 Muslim states in the UN, one-quarter of their membership. Some of them are oil-rich, and slip what to them is less than pocket change to the poorer countries to vote their way on anti-Israel resolutions. You think Peru or Guatemala or Gambia give a damn about the middle east? They'll easily take the money!

And by the way, I bet the UN hasn't made a similar resolution demanding Arab states compensate the 800k Jews forced out of their countries in 1948 who went to Israel.

 

 

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

What the Arabs never mention is some 800,000 Jews were forced out of surrounding Arab countries around that time, too. Israel took them all in and gave them citizenship.

Exactly. They can't for 2 reasons:

1. it goes against the false narrative that life in the ME was peachy keen for everyone under islamic rule... They like to think that there was no bigotry driving Jews out of Iran, Iraq, Syria etc for the last several centuries, there was just the pull factor of Zionism. 
2. they have created a false narrative that everyone that migrated to Israel is a white European. They're kind of like Hitler in the sense that they find it important to define those Jews as being "significantly racially different from everyone else", and not just people with a different religion.

Quote

The Arab states refused to take in the Palestinians who were their co-religionists, who had the same language, history, culture, values and ethnicity as they do.

The Jordanians took in a lot of them, and then they tried to overthrow the Jordanian gov't in the early '70s. 

Edited November 10, 2024 by WestCanMan