Ukraine Can't Win the War

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

To what?  That after 6 months of delays for arms supply, Russia managed to capture a handful of tiny villages, before stalling out yet again?  

Fixed that for you.  

My logic easily demonstrates how bad yours is.  See the above quote.  Russia has manpower shortages too, and also shittier leadership, less motivated troops, and nothing worthwhile to fight for.   

The logical thing to do isn't to make a shitty peace deal on Russian terms.  LOL!

Your "logic" is a regurgitation of the bullshit Zelinsky feeds AP. nothing more.

The assumptions you make are just stoopid. Here's some reality.

and more.

and more.

and more.

 

Now you have a taste of the unfiltered story. If you check the Zelinsky MSM reports, you'll note that even they have to admit the obvious.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/11/europe/ukraine-kharkiv-russia-attack-intl/index.html

"Russia has manpower shortages too, and also shittier leadership, less motivated troops, and nothing worthwhile to fight for."

Ya...it sure looks like that even to CNN...NOT!

But you have "logic"...ROFLMAO!

What you have is a thirst for blood. Not yours of course. No, you wanna see Ukraine's death toll reach 1,000,000. To hell with the cost. To hell with the Ukrainians. 

Every war ends with either surrender, a peace treaty, or total destruction. You choose total destruction...of others...not yourself. That's not only cowardly...it's sick.

[Nationalist]

7 hours ago, User said:

You might as well be working for Putin pushing this propaganda. 

Unfortunately, this led to the Russians rebelling?!

Russia funded that rebellion, armed that rebellion, and pushed that rebellion. Hell, Russia was putting troops there covertly to back them as well. 

Let's not pretend like this was all some naturally occurring uprising here. 

This is such revisionist BS. Not based on any facts and 100% pushing pro-Russian propaganda. 

They can't negotiate peace with someone from a position of weakness if we are not supporting them and a real peace deal must come with security guarantees which Russia is not offering. 

You expect Ukraine to give Russia everything and basically just trust that Russia is going to behave like a honest and trustworthy peace partner. 

AFTER Russia had already taken Crimea and had already instigated the rebellion in the Donbas. 

No, this is exactly what you should be saying about Russia. You show more disdain towards NATO for supporting Ukraine against Russia than you do for what Russia did to Ukraine in the Donbas. 

And yet again... none of this was actually a direct response to anything I had previous just said to you. 

And you might as well be bashing your head into a brick wall.

You are correct. I have no use for NATO. It's reason for existence was gone decades ago. Now all it does is cause sh1t and cost everyone. Oh but France want to send troops...or doesn't depending on who you ask...ya...NATO...big fcking deal.

Now even the MSM sees what's actually happening. 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/11/europe/ukraine-kharkiv-russia-attack-intl/index.html

BTW...we know that America has been sending arms to Ukraine covertly since the beginning as well. What? You thought Obama was really just sending blankets?

This needs to end now before some pompous ass Frenchman dooms Europe to a disaster.

Edited May 21 by Nationalist

[SpankyMcFarland]

I don’t deny things are looking tough for Ukraine but it’s up to the citizens of that country to decide when they might negotiate with Putin and whether he, or indeed the West, can be trusted to honour any treaty. 

[Moonbox]

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Your "logic" is a regurgitation of the bullshit Zelinsky feeds AP. nothing more.

You make that criticism as you foolishly drop 4 video links on us from India, a country with near-zero media/press freedom and whose leader is aligned with Putin.  

Even dumber, however, is the fact that the video is sourced directly from the Russian Ministry of Defense.  You're literally spreading direct-from-the-Kremlin propaganda on this forum, while complaining that everyone else is falling for propaganda.  

No words can fairly describe that level of stupidity.  

[Nationalist]

11 hours ago, Moonbox said:

You make that criticism as you foolishly drop 4 video links on us from India, a country with near-zero media/press freedom and whose leader is aligned with Putin.  

Even dumber, however, is the fact that the video is sourced directly from the Russian Ministry of Defense.  You're literally spreading direct-from-the-Kremlin propaganda on this forum, while complaining that everyone else is falling for propaganda.  

No words can fairly describe that level of stupidity.  

CNN is  Kremlin propaganda outfit now? 

I realize you have a deep need to conform, but I am a little more intellectually inclined for such simple needs.

Not "everyone else". Several posters see what I see...reality. But again, your need for conformity forces you to make silly statements like this.

In conclusion, you are a classic simpleton.!

Edited May 22 by Nationalist

[User]

17 hours ago, Nationalist said:

You are correct. I have no use for NATO. It's reason for existence was gone decades ago. Now all it does is cause sh1t and cost everyone. Oh but France want to send troops...or doesn't depending on who you ask...ya...NATO...big fcking deal.

Here you go again... it is Russia that caused and started this shit. Not NATO. 

Russia is currently invading Ukraine... and you are here saying there is no need for NATO. NATO is what keeps Russia in check from invading any of the other member countries. 

Once again, you show more disdain towards our allies than you do Russia. Your motives become more and more clear, the more layers we pull back from your surface level BS.
 

17 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Now even the MSM sees what's actually happening. 

And? The article is from over 10 days ago. Guess what? Ukraine has not collapsed, many of those offenses by Russia have stalled out. 

17 hours ago, Nationalist said:

BTW...we know that America has been sending arms to Ukraine covertly since the beginning as well. What? You thought Obama was really just sending blankets?

This needs to end now before some pompous ass Frenchman dooms Europe to a disaster.

Ukraine... is Ukraine. It doesn't matter what the US was sending it covertly or overtly... they were to bolster their defenses and to help Ukraine. That is not the same thing as Russia covertly invading Ukraine and backing separatists with Russian troops and Russian military assistance. 

This ends by our continuing to support Ukraine, not by abandoning them to Russia. 

[Moonbox]

14 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

CNN is  Kremlin propaganda outfit now? 

CNN?  Wtf?  

You referenced videos from the Hindustan Times and the Times of India, with footage clearly marked "Russian Ministry of Defense", while accusing other people of falling for propaganda.  

You're making a fool out of yourself in so many ways here.  

[Nationalist]

5 minutes ago, User said:

Here you go again... it is Russia that caused and started this shit. Not NATO. 

Russia is currently invading Ukraine... and you are here saying there is no need for NATO. NATO is what keeps Russia in check from invading any of the other member countries. 

Once again, you show more disdain towards our allies than you do Russia. Your motives become more and more clear, the more layers we pull back from your surface level BS.
 

And? The article is from over 10 days ago. Guess what? Ukraine has not collapsed, many of those offenses by Russia have stalled out. 

Ukraine... is Ukraine. It doesn't matter what the US was sending it covertly or overtly... they were to bolster their defenses and to help Ukraine. That is not the same thing as Russia covertly invading Ukraine and backing separatists with Russian troops and Russian military assistance. 

This ends by our continuing to support Ukraine, not by abandoning them to Russia. 

So you simply ignore that NATO has been expanding and wooing Ukraine, contrary to agreements not to? Gee...how convenient. 

NATO is a toothless, cowardly old hag that should be dissolved. All they do is cost the public money and grief. They can't even keep themselves in check.

My motive is peace and rationality. I'm not a big fan of denying reality for the sake of my feelings. It appears clear you are.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682

This insanity needs to end now with a negotiated peace deal between Ukraine and Russia. NATO, Johnson and the US need to stay out of it.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

CNN?  Wtf?  

You referenced videos from the Hindustan Times and the Times of India, with footage clearly marked "Russian Ministry of Defense", while accusing other people of falling for propaganda.  

You're making a fool out of yourself in so many ways here.  

Err... https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/11/europe/ukraine-kharkiv-russia-attack-intl/index.html

Attention to detail. You lack this skill obviously. 

[User]

33 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

So you simply ignore that NATO has been expanding and wooing Ukraine, contrary to agreements not to? Gee...how convenient. 

NATO is a defensive alliance. They have been expanding since they were created. What are these agreements you speak of? Let me guess, more Russian propaganda?

36 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

NATO is a toothless, cowardly old hag that should be dissolved. All they do is cost the public money and grief. They can't even keep themselves in check.

So, lets review here. You push Russian propaganda and basically work to justify their invasion and support their victory... and now you want to disband NATO. 

Go figure. Seriously, why even pretend that you are not an outright supporter of Putin and Russia at this point?

38 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

My motive is peace and rationality. I'm not a big fan of denying reality for the sake of my feelings. It appears clear you are.

What reality am I denying? You are the one pushing outdated information, pushing "facts" that are anything but, and are pushing Russian propaganda. 

39 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

This insanity needs to end now with a negotiated peace deal between Ukraine and Russia. NATO, Johnson and the US need to stay out of it.

Ukraine is defending itself. You are opposing any support for them. Your position is nonsensical and I have repeatedly asked you to explain why Russia is going to negotiate peace with Ukraine when they are weak and do not have our support.

[Moonbox]

8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Err... https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/11/europe/ukraine-kharkiv-russia-attack-intl/index.html

Attention to detail. You lack this skill obviously. 

Two things:

1)   You still linked 4 videos above this directly from the Russian Ministry of Defence, telling us it's "reality"  🤡

2)  Dumping links with no explanation of how you figure it supports your point is goofy.  What part of that article do you figure is relevant, or supports your point?  

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ukraine-stabilized-kharkiv-russia-offensive-crimea-drone-attack-power-rcna152717

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-fighting-donbas-kharkiv/31851233.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/21/ukraine-war-russia-putin-kharkiv-attack-failure-brigades/

We can both lob links with no explanations at each other all day.  It's stupid, but maybe that's just the language you communicate in.

Edited May 23 by Moonbox

[Nationalist]

16 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Two things:

1)   You still linked 4 videos above this directly from the Russian Ministry of Defence, telling us it's "reality"  🤡

2)  Dumping links with no explanation of how you figure it supports your point is goofy.  What part of that article do you figure is relevant, or supports your point?  

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ukraine-stabilized-kharkiv-russia-offensive-crimea-drone-attack-power-rcna152717

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-fighting-donbas-kharkiv/31851233.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/21/ukraine-war-russia-putin-kharkiv-attack-failure-brigades/

We can both lob links with no explanations at each other all day.  It's stupid, but maybe that's just the language you communicate in.

Interesting. The top link starts with "Ukraine said". Lol...

I prefer to check sources from both sides as exemplified by the CNN article I posted.

Then I make up my mind where the truth is more likely.

Lately though...your western, Zelinsky fed MSM agrees with independent news sources describing the war.

But I don't expect you to search for truth so...you're excused.

[Nationalist]

On 5/22/2024 at 2:23 PM, User said:

NATO is a defensive alliance. They have been expanding since they were created. What are these agreements you speak of? Let me guess, more Russian propaganda?

Quote

The controversy in Russia regarding the legitimacy of eastward NATO expansion relates to the aftermath of the Revolutions of 1989, when the fall of Soviet-allied communist states to opposition parties brought European spheres of influence into question. U.S. documents claim that agreement on non-expansion of NATO to Eastern Europe took place orally^[1] and the alliance violated it with its expansion^[1][2][3][4] while the leaders of the alliance claim that no such promise was made^[5] and that such a decision could only be made in writing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_in_Russia_regarding_the_legitimacy_of_eastward_NATO_expansion

The USA has a habit of back-stabbing, lying and reneging on agreements.

https://www.herald.co.zw/us-keeps-reneging-on-arms-control-agreements-so-why-should-russia-trust-bidens-latest-overtures/

Bay of Tonkin:

Quote

The United States government falsely claimed that a second incident occurred on August 4, 1964, between North Vietnamese and United States ships in the waters of the Gulf of Tonkin. Originally, US military claims blamed North Vietnam for the confrontation and the ostensible, but in fact imaginary, incident on August 4.

Google

"He's got 'em":

Quote

Twenty years ago this week, Bush and his sidekick Vice President Dick Cheney launched a war against Iraq. They greased the way to this tragic conflagration with the false claims that Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction that directly threatened the United States, and that he was in league with al Qaeda, the perpetrators of the horrific September 11 attack.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/03/the-iraq-invasion-20-years-later-it-was-indeed-a-big-lie-that-launched-the-catastrophic-war/

So am I surprised that the USA and NATO agreed to not expand and did so while hiding behind, "It wasn't in writing"?'

Not at all.

On 5/22/2024 at 2:23 PM, User said:

So, lets review here. You push Russian propaganda and basically work to justify their invasion and support their victory... and now you want to disband NATO. 

Go figure. Seriously, why even pretend that you are not an outright supporter of Putin and Russia at this point?

I basically work to find the truth...no matter who gets a black-eye as a result.

Its almost comical how you keep trying to assert that I "support" Putin. However...you can't because I don't...and have never said I do. At this point...you're just beating a dead horse.

On 5/22/2024 at 2:23 PM, User said:

What reality am I denying? You are the one pushing outdated information, pushing "facts" that are anything but, and are pushing Russian propaganda. 

Tell me...do you honestly think Ukraine will recover the lands they've lost to Russia?

On 5/22/2024 at 2:23 PM, User said:

Ukraine is defending itself. You are opposing any support for them. Your position is nonsensical and I have repeatedly asked you to explain why Russia is going to negotiate peace with Ukraine when they are weak and do not have our support.

Let 'em defend themselves then...on someone else's dime and without risking global thermonuclear war.

And I could care less what Russia demands in any peace negotiations. They have the upper hand and can negotiate from a position of strength, not weakness. IMO, the Ukrainians would be wise to negotiate as their male population is dwindling and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men have died...and as many have put their tails between their legs and ran away.

Edited May 23 by Nationalist

[Moonbox]

39 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Interesting. The top link starts with "Ukraine said". Lol...

Not it doesn't.  It's clearly marked from the "Russian Ministry of Defense".  

39 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I prefer to check sources from both sides as exemplified by the CNN article I posted.

Then I make up my mind where the truth is more likely.

You scour the interwebs desperately trying to find things that support your donkey worldviews.  That's why you always end up having to source your "news" from third world shitholes.

What you've exemplified by posting your CNN article is that you're not actually making up your mind.  You're choosing your own reality.  Everything CNN says is spoonfed MSM fake news, apparently, until it says something you want to hear.  Then all of the sudden Mr. Nationalist carefully considers other sides of the story.  LOL! 🤡

For the amount of time you've spent on this forum raving about Donna Lemon and CNN (despite nobody every citing or referencing it), it's hilarious seeing you post articles from it now.  

[Nationalist]

12 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Not it doesn't.  It's clearly marked from the "Russian Ministry of Defense".  

You scour the interwebs desperately trying to find things that support your donkey worldviews.  That's why you always end up having to source your "news" from third world shitholes.

What you've exemplified by posting your CNN article is that you're not actually making up your mind.  You're choosing your own reality.  Everything CNN says is spoonfed MSM fake news, apparently, until it says something you want to hear.  Then all of the sudden Mr. Nationalist carefully considers other sides of the story.  LOL! 🤡

For the amount of time you've spent on this forum raving about Donna Lemon and CNN (despite nobody every citing or referencing it), it's hilarious seeing you post articles from it now.  

I'm talking about your first link dimwitty. 

No kidding Loser-Baby...you're just stoopid. 

[Moonbox]

15 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I'm talking about your first link dimwitty. 

No kidding Loser-Baby...you're just stoopid. 

My link?  I posted my links ironically, to make fun of you:

On 5/22/2024 at 10:38 PM, Moonbox said:

We can both lob links with no explanations at each other all day.  It's stupid, but maybe that's just the language you communicate in.

So I guess I was right?  😆

[User]

17 hours ago, Nationalist said:

The USA has a habit of back-stabbing, lying and reneging on agreements.

You provided a quote from Wikipedia... that provides for a "source" what appears to be some random persons college research paper in pdf format and a bunch of Russian links. 

Where exactly is this agreement that we made that we are now lying, back-stabbing, or reneging on? 

No Wikipedia, not random links, lets see you provide a real source and what part of that source supports you here. 

I mean seriously, you have to know what you did here was beyond dishonest... right? 
 

18 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I basically work to find the truth...no matter who gets a black-eye as a result.

Its almost comical how you keep trying to assert that I "support" Putin. However...you can't because I don't...and have never said I do. At this point...you're just beating a dead horse.

Yeah, you "work" really hard to find whatever obscure "source" you can find that still doesn't support what you claim...

Your arguments here support him. You are literally pushing Russian propaganda that NATO made some kind of deal to never expand. You don't have to say you support Putin, you are here supporting him. 
 

18 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Tell me...do you honestly think Ukraine will recover the lands they've lost to Russia?

Which "lands?"

The Battlefield has been moving daily. Ukraine takes back land throughout the war. Did you forget how far Russia initially pushed and then had to fall back? I can't say for certain how much Ukraine will retake, many factors can go into that, but it is certainly within the realm of reason that Russia can determine this war has cost them too much for too long and they will keep retreating to a point they find they can defend satisfactorily. Ukraine may still yet retake much of the Donbas... Crimea much less likely. 
 

18 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Let 'em defend themselves then...on someone else's dime and without risking global thermonuclear war.

And I could care less what Russia demands in any peace negotiations. They have the upper hand and can negotiate from a position of strength, not weakness. IMO, the Ukrainians would be wise to negotiate as their male population is dwindling and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men have died...and as many have put their tails between their legs and ran away.

This is why your arguments are duplicitous and I say you support Putin. You sit here repeatedly saying Ukraine must make peace... but you refuse to support them. 

You are here outright saying you are fine with Russia negotiating from a position of strength. If we abandon Ukraine, there is no peace deal, there is only conquest. Putin is not going to be like, Oh look, NATO abandoned Ukraine, I guess I will stop now.

You mock the Ukrainians. Seriously, stop pretending like you don't understand why I keep saying you support Putin and Russia. You clearly and obviously do. 

[Nationalist]

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

My link?  I posted my links ironically, to make fun of you:

So I guess I was right?  😆

Lol...ya...sure you did.

[Moonbox]

22 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Lol...ya...sure you did.

Again, what else do you figure I meant when I said this? 

On 5/22/2024 at 10:38 PM, Moonbox said:

We can both lob links with no explanations at each other all day.  It's stupid, but maybe that's just the language you communicate in.

There's that brilliant "logic" of yours again.  🤡

Edited May 24 by Moonbox

[Nationalist]

7 hours ago, User said:

You provided a quote from Wikipedia... that provides for a "source" what appears to be some random persons college research paper in pdf format and a bunch of Russian links. 

Where exactly is this agreement that we made that we are now lying, back-stabbing, or reneging on? 

No Wikipedia, not random links, lets see you provide a real source and what part of that source supports you here. 

I mean seriously, you have to know what you did here was beyond dishonest... right? 
 

Yeah, you "work" really hard to find whatever obscure "source" you can find that still doesn't support what you claim...

Your arguments here support him. You are literally pushing Russian propaganda that NATO made some kind of deal to never expand. You don't have to say you support Putin, you are here supporting him. 
 

Which "lands?"

The Battlefield has been moving daily. Ukraine takes back land throughout the war. Did you forget how far Russia initially pushed and then had to fall back? I can't say for certain how much Ukraine will retake, many factors can go into that, but it is certainly within the realm of reason that Russia can determine this war has cost them too much for too long and they will keep retreating to a point they find they can defend satisfactorily. Ukraine may still yet retake much of the Donbas... Crimea much less likely. 
 

This is why your arguments are duplicitous and I say you support Putin. You sit here repeatedly saying Ukraine must make peace... but you refuse to support them. 

You are here outright saying you are fine with Russia negotiating from a position of strength. If we abandon Ukraine, there is no peace deal, there is only conquest. Putin is not going to be like, Oh look, NATO abandoned Ukraine, I guess I will stop now.

You mock the Ukrainians. Seriously, stop pretending like you don't understand why I keep saying you support Putin and Russia. You clearly and obviously do. 

Oh I understand you. It's just that you're wrong. The reason you're wrong is the word "support". I "support" none of them.

What I find interesting is, you argue with Libbies about news sources, yet with this subject, your do the same thing as robo-bot. What makes you think the information Zelinsky feeds AP and Rueters, is more valid or accurate than other news sources?

Meh...everyone naturally wants "their side" to win. But when the entire picture is brought into focus, and it becomes clear the side you identify with can't win...the argument becomes asinine. Wishful thinking.

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Again, what else do you figure I meant when I said this? 

There's that brilliant "logic" of yours again.  🤡

Moonie...I honestly think you're just a dullard. 

[-TSS-]

Unfortunately it seems that the biggest grief Russians have about the sanctions is that they are banned from playing hockey and other international sporting events. That really pisses them off big time.

However, as the purpose of the sanctions was to destroy the economy of Russia and make them starve that hasn't happened. If it had nobody in that country would give a shit about something like sports.

[phoenyx75]

6 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

Unfortunately it seems that the biggest grief Russians have about the sanctions is that they are banned from playing hockey and other international sporting events. That really pisses them off big time.

However, as the purpose of the sanctions was to destroy the economy of Russia and make them starve that hasn't happened. If it had nobody in that country would give a shit about something like sports.

I strongly suspect that Russia's decision to intervene in the Ukrainian civil war over 2 years ago was the right one. I know this view is definitely not the norm in western societies, so I decided to start a thread that references perhaps the best article I've ever seen that describes a lot of the lead up to Russia's intervention. It's here:

 

[Moonbox]

9 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Oh I understand you. It's just that you're wrong. The reason you're wrong is the word "support". I "support" none of them.

There's no reality where you successfully convince anyone that after spending over two years promoting and parroting everything Putin says, while at the same time undermining all of his opponents, that you've not been supporting him. 

The former proves the latter.  Your insistence otherwise accomplishes nothing, other than proving that you're either too dumb to understand, or too much of a sniveling cowardly to admit what you've been doing all this time.  It's probably both.  

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

There's no reality where you successfully convince anyone that after spending over two years promoting and parroting everything Putin says, while at the same time undermining all of his opponents, that you've not been supporting him. 

The former proves the latter.  Your insistence otherwise accomplishes nothing, other than proving that you're either too dumb to understand, or too much of a sniveling cowardly to admit what you've been doing all this time.  It's probably both.  

You made your predictions and threw in with NATO. You lost.

You can't wish things into reality.

LOSER.