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Ukraine Can't Win the War


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1 minute ago, User said:

Nice dodge. Russia is not the superior force, at least not anywhere near as much, if we help Ukraine. 

Reality isn't an issue for me, it certainly appears to be for you. 

It's my ONLY issue! For all intents and purposes, this "war" was over before it started. Everyone knew the Russians were gonna invade and what did Brandon say?

If it's just a "minor incursion" I guess we can deal with that.

Everyone wants "their side" to win. But reality does not care which side you're on...and neither do I.

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Just now, Nationalist said:

It's my ONLY issue! For all intents and purposes, this "war" was over before it started. Everyone knew the Russians were gonna invade and what did Brandon say?

Yes, this makes perfect sense. You have been supporting Putin/Russia this whole time, you justify the war for them, of course you wanted them to win from the beginning. 

1 minute ago, Nationalist said:

If it's just a "minor incursion" I guess we can deal with that.

Everyone wants "their side" to win. But reality does not care which side you're on...and neither do I.

Yeah, all your arguments here clearly show whose side you are on... The Russians. 

You sit here with more condemnation and criticism of America for something they never did to excuse Putin to justify the war. 

You don't want peace. You just want Russia to win the war, the war you justify, more quickly. Wanting peace would have been no invasion to begin with. 

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6 minutes ago, User said:

Yes, this makes perfect sense. You have been supporting Putin/Russia this whole time, you justify the war for them, of course you wanted them to win from the beginning. 

Yeah, all your arguments here clearly show whose side you are on... The Russians. 

You sit here with more condemnation and criticism of America for something they never did to excuse Putin to justify the war. 

You don't want peace. You just want Russia to win the war, the war you justify, more quickly. Wanting peace would have been no invasion to begin with. 

ROFLMAO!

You generally make a lot of sense. But I see this is a blind spot for you.

I have posted the facts as they exist.

1. The Ukraine government did send the Azovs to attack the Donbas provinces after the first referendum. Were Russian officials present during the referendum? Apparently. Does that negate the results? Meh...not really.

2. The Russian Duma voted to invade Ukraine to defend the ethnic Russians in those provinces. Should they have? Maybe not. But that would mean the USA has some culpability as they were arming the Azovs all along...contrary to the warnings of both the Canadian and US military that these Azovs were really neo-Nazis. Not only that but its now known the Nuland was messing with Ukrainian politics all along. Perhaps one is as bad as the next, eh?

3. Don't suppose you know via your "feelings" and interpretation of my motives.  I just watched you lecture someone on another thread about assuming others know your motives.

4. Here...apparently you need this...

il_680x540.3974052372_o7ve.thumb.webp.2286c45c9a39419981dfbf2679f46813.webp

Now...perhaps you'd like to grow up a bit and stop making childish accusations?

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1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Russia IS the superior force! That's just the way it IS! Are we going to rail against reality now?

You are missing the point. BigMac has predicted Ukraine is going to surrender every second week since the conflict began. It's now been 27 moths, with no end in sight.

 

PS..US and Russia were superior to Vietnam and Afghanistan respectively.  Guess how those conflicts turned out.

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2 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

You are missing the point. BigMac has predicted Ukraine is going to surrender every second week since the conflict began. It's now been 27 moths, with no end in sight.

 

PS..US and Russia were superior to Vietnam and Afghanistan respectively.  Guess how those conflicts turned out.

I've been watching MacGregor and others...including our vauted MSM all along. He has not been predicting a Ukraine surrender every week...or even most weeks. Let's try reality...mkaaayyy?

We're not talking about either Vietnam or Afghanistan. Again...reality...try it.

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6 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I've been watching MacGregor and others...including our vauted MSM all along. He has not been predicting a Ukraine surrender every week...or even most weeks. Let's try reality...mkaaayyy?

We're not talking about either Vietnam or Afghanistan. Again...reality...try it.

MacDrunk has been predicting a Ukraine surrender every second week since the conflict began. All one has to do is go to his YouTube account and see for themselves. 

Why is it people who claim to be Nationalist, are the biggest Putin supporters, the leader of a country who are our historical enemies.  Benedict Arnold would be proud.

6 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

 

We're not talking about either Vietnam or Afghanistan. Again...reality...try it.

Ukraine is far more powerful than both countries combined.  The irony.

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30 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

MacDrunk has been predicting a Ukraine surrender every second week since the conflict began. All one has to do is go to his YouTube account and see for themselves. 

Why is it people who claim to be Nationalist, are the biggest Putin supporters, the leader of a country who are our historical enemies.  Benedict Arnold would be proud.

Ukraine is far more powerful than both countries combined.  The irony.

Your upset...I can tell. You're also full o' sh1t. I don't adhere to your simple analysis and "the home team" so you think you can fling bullsh1t about.

Dude...it might be a bad thing for you to carry on like a simpleton.

BTW...you have no idea how "powerful" Vietnam is or was and I suspect you'd simply p1ss your panties if you had to face live fire.

But if you wanna get into a mud-slinging contest...do your best. I'm pretty good at that.

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1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

I have posted the facts as they exist.

No, you selectively post some facts and outright distort others or only look at the "facts" pushed by Russia as propaganda. 
 

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

1. The Ukraine government did send the Azovs to attack the Donbas provinces after the first referendum. Were Russian officials present during the referendum? Apparently. Does that negate the results? Meh...not really.

Are you just reverting back to randomly saying the same things you have before? I have already responded to this line of argument from you... and you ignore it. 

You keep dishonestly trying to frame this as some kind of natural uprising in the Donbas, and characterize Russia as the benevolent force just intervening on behalf of the people. 

It is a lie. What you are doing is flat out dishonest. This is exactly why I rightly characterize what you are doing as support for Putin and Russia. 

Russia was not just there... Russia instigated the rebellion, they funded the seperatists, and they sent their own forces there to help lead and fight their shadow war there. 

And you are going to sit here pretending like it was not a sham. 


 

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1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

We're not talking about either Vietnam or Afghanistan. Again...reality...try it.

No... but what we are talking about is that it is a simpleton notion to simply say Russia is superior = they win. 

The point was that many military powers have been superior, but the cost of battle for years proves to not be worth fighting. NATO is far superior to Russia and with NATO support Ukraine can put up a fight that makes it too costly for Russia to win. 

You want peace? Then you should support Ukraine so they can push Russia to peace. Otherwise, it seems you just support Russia winning and call that peace. 

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3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Russia IS the superior force! That's just the way it IS! Are we going to rail against reality now?

Superior in numbers.  Inferior in almost literally everything else.  The level of strategic, tactical and doctrinal incompetence Russia has exhibited in this conflict has rarely been matched in history.  It's reminiscent of Gaddafi and his Soviet-made tanks getting fought off by Chad and their shitty pickup trucks.  

It'd be hard to think of an example of a more incompetently lead army squandering their numerical and technical advantage harder than Russia has in Ukraine.  I wonder why they just sacked their army leadership this month...again!?

That's reality for ya! 😆

Edited by Moonbox
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1 hour ago, User said:

No, you selectively post some facts and outright distort others or only look at the "facts" pushed by Russia as propaganda. 
 

Are you just reverting back to randomly saying the same things you have before? I have already responded to this line of argument from you... and you ignore it. 

You keep dishonestly trying to frame this as some kind of natural uprising in the Donbas, and characterize Russia as the benevolent force just intervening on behalf of the people. 

It is a lie. What you are doing is flat out dishonest. This is exactly why I rightly characterize what you are doing as support for Putin and Russia. 

Russia was not just there... Russia instigated the rebellion, they funded the seperatists, and they sent their own forces there to help lead and fight their shadow war there. 

And you are going to sit here pretending like it was not a sham. 


 

Huh...then I haven't been clear enough. I'm sure I've said this before but...one more time...with "feeling". 😀

When the Ukraine was formed, from what I've been told by Ukrainians as well, the Ukraine government was trying to assimilate the culturally Russian eastern regions, Crimea, and in Odessa. I'm not really adverse to a "melting pot", unfortunately those culturally Russian people took exception to that. Heritage and all that I'd imagine. By 2014 Crimea and the eastern provinces held a referendum on the subject. Russia had its "contingent" there...and so did America and NATO. Biden's kid was making a mint off Burisma, Nuland was messing with the Ukrainian government and Brandon was threatening the Ukrainian government. Anyway...you know the ballad...

IN MY VIEW...Russia had been warning NATO to leave Ukraine alone for a long time. It is apparent Ukraine holds value to them as a buffer zone. Ukraine did apply but were rejected by NATO. So...Why is NATO all fired up about Ukraine? Originally the European nations wanted nothing to do with this. What possible value could the USA see in Ukraine. I mean...aside from Hunter's salary...

Oh and...hadn't Brandon just finished surrendering to Afghan terrorists? What...no war? No money for arms producers? A black eye for the military and Brandon? Huh...

This has never made sense to me. This altruistic idea that we have to defend Ukraine is asinine. Support their effort on moral grounds? Sure. But when NATO and America begin funding one side over the other, sending arms and "advisors" to help in Ukraine, begin saber-rattling, I see Vietnam all over again. Only this time they court direct war with fcking Russia! In Europe! That's Gawd-damn insanity!

On top of all this...our economies are a mess. We cannot afford trillions of dollars for a corrupt state's issues with Russia.

No...we have no business being involved in this. It serves no realistic purpose and is incredibly dangerous and is an expense we cannot afford right now.

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1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Superior in numbers.  Inferior in almost literally everything else.  The level of strategic, tactical and doctrinal incompetence Russia has exhibited in this conflict has rarely been matched in history.  It's reminiscent of Gaddafi and his Soviet-made tanks getting fought off by Chad and their shitty pickup trucks.  

It'd be hard to think of an example of a more incompetently lead army squandering their numerical and technical advantage harder than Russia has in Ukraine.  I wonder why they just sacked their army leadership this month...again!?

That's reality for ya! 😆

1. No...Brandon's surrender to the Taliban would be the biggest example of incompetence in modern history. 

2. How's Zelinsky's latest begging campaign coming along? Has Brandon and Xi Jinping agreed to attend his peace talks conference yet?

Have a nice day.. 

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29 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Huh...then I haven't been clear enough. I'm sure I've said this before but...one more time...with "feeling". 😀

When the Ukraine was formed, from what I've been told by Ukrainians as well, the Ukraine government was trying to assimilate the culturally Russian eastern regions, Crimea, and in Odessa. I'm not really adverse to a "melting pot", unfortunately those culturally Russian people took exception to that. Heritage and all that I'd imagine. By 2014 Crimea and the eastern provinces held a referendum on the subject. Russia had its "contingent" there...and so did America and NATO. Biden's kid was making a mint off Burisma, Nuland was messing with the Ukrainian government and Brandon was threatening the Ukrainian government. Anyway...you know the ballad...

IN MY VIEW...Russia had been warning NATO to leave Ukraine alone for a long time. It is apparent Ukraine holds value to them as a buffer zone. Ukraine did apply but were rejected by NATO. So...Why is NATO all fired up about Ukraine? Originally the European nations wanted nothing to do with this. What possible value could the USA see in Ukraine. I mean...aside from Hunter's salary...

Oh and...hadn't Brandon just finished surrendering to Afghan terrorists? What...no war? No money for arms producers? A black eye for the military and Brandon? Huh...

This has never made sense to me. This altruistic idea that we have to defend Ukraine is asinine. Support their effort on moral grounds? Sure. But when NATO and America begin funding one side over the other, sending arms and "advisors" to help in Ukraine, begin saber-rattling, I see Vietnam all over again. Only this time they court direct war with fcking Russia! In Europe! That's Gawd-damn insanity!

On top of all this...our economies are a mess. We cannot afford trillions of dollars for a corrupt state's issues with Russia.

No...we have no business being involved in this. It serves no realistic purpose and is incredibly dangerous and is an expense we cannot afford right now.

Is this a joke? There is nothing clear about this rambling nonsense. It is just another retread of your past failed deceptive arguments. 

Basically, you just ignored everything I just said, and are back to pretending like Russia was not the one behind the referendum. Then you are back to trying to say your whole argument here is that it is just an expense we can't afford right now. You have not played this angle since a month ago before I really knew you and we already peeled back this as a layer of your deceptive line of argument. Oh, and you are blaming us again... it is amazing how you blame everyone and anything other than Putin while you also outright ignore what he has done and push propaganda to support him and to justify his invasion. 

Then you pretend to be upset that myself and others keep saying you are supporting Putin and Russia. 

 

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2 hours ago, User said:

No... but what we are talking about is that it is a simpleton notion to simply say Russia is superior = they win. 

The point was that many military powers have been superior, but the cost of battle for years proves to not be worth fighting. NATO is far superior to Russia and with NATO support Ukraine can put up a fight that makes it too costly for Russia to win. 

You want peace? Then you should support Ukraine so they can push Russia to peace. Otherwise, it seems you just support Russia winning and call that peace. 

How do you define "winning" for Ukraine?

Because I think once Russia captures Odessa, they're done. I don't think they want all of Ukraine.

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8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

 

IN MY VIEW...Russia had been warning NATO to leave Ukraine alone for a long time. It is apparent Ukraine holds value to them as a buffer zone. Ukraine did apply but were rejected by NATO. So...Why is NATO all fired up about Ukraine? Originally the European nations wanted nothing to do with this. What possible value could the USA see in Ukraine. I mean...aside from Hunter's salary...

Every single statement in this paragraph has been proven false. Ukraine never applied to join NATO before the Russian invasion, When Ukraine achieved independence in 1991 from the Soviet Union, the Russians ever made mention of NATO.  

 

8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

This has never made sense to me. This altruistic idea that we have to defend Ukraine is asinine. Support their effort on moral grounds? Sure. But when NATO and America begin funding one side over the other, sending arms and "advisors" to help in Ukraine, begin saber-rattling, I see Vietnam all over again. Only this time they court direct war with fcking Russia! In Europe! That's Gawd-damn insanity!

How is it anything like Vietnam? There are no Americans being sent to fight. Additionally, the Americans supported the Afghanistan militants conducting guerrilla warfare against the Soviet Union in the 80s, which proved successful as it wore down the Soviet economy. I do not get the "America First" people, considering that the US will be in beffer economic position to supply weapons to Ukraine, as building replacement (and better) weapons will create jobs, and strengthen ties with Europe, as in the aftermath of WW2 and beyond.

8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

No...we have no business being involved in this. It serves no realistic purpose and is incredibly dangerous and is an expense we cannot afford right now.

Just like World War II?

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29 minutes ago, User said:

Is this a joke? There is nothing clear about this rambling nonsense. It is just another retread of your past failed deceptive arguments. 

Basically, you just ignored everything I just said, and are back to pretending like Russia was not the one behind the referendum. Then you are back to trying to say your whole argument here is that it is just an expense we can't afford right now. You have not played this angle since a month ago before I really knew you and we already peeled back this as a layer of your deceptive line of argument. Oh, and you are blaming us again... it is amazing how you blame everyone and anything other than Putin while you also outright ignore what he has done and push propaganda to support him and to justify his invasion. 

Then you pretend to be upset that myself and others keep saying you are supporting Putin and Russia. 

 

Russia was the one behind the numerous referendums? That's silly. Referendums are held when the public must decide on something. They decided...twice...with the same verdict both times.

During which time, Nuland was making plans for the Ukrainian government. 

Does NATO represent "us"? It's supposed to. So why is NATO forcing Ukraine on us? Or was it just Nuland and America? Noland is now calling for long range missile attacks deep inside Russia.

Ya want WWIII? Well if this b1tch gets her way...again...you'll get it.

Tell me. Is that "helping Ukraine"? Or is it plotting Armageddon?

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6 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Every single statement in this paragraph has been proven false. Ukraine never applied to join NATO before the Russian invasion, When Ukraine achieved independence in 1991 from the Soviet Union, the Russians ever made mention of NATO.  

 

How is it anything like Vietnam? There are no Americans being sent to fight. Additionally, the Americans supported the Afghanistan militants conducting guerrilla warfare against the Soviet Union in the 80s, which proved successful as it wore down the Soviet economy. I do not get the "America First" people, considering that the US will be in beffer economic position to supply weapons to Ukraine, as building replacement (and better) weapons will create jobs, and strengthen ties with Europe, as in the aftermath of WW2 and beyond.

Just like World War II?

Dude...

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/national-international/ukraine-wanted-to-join-natos-alliance-for-years-what-stopped-it/2813488/

 

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2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Russia was the one behind the numerous referendums? That's silly. Referendums are held when the public must decide on something. They decided...twice...with the same verdict both times.

No, what is silly, outright beyond belief, is your pushing those referendums as some above-board thing as if Russia played no nefarious role there. 

Again, this is why I say you support Putin. You are here pushing his Propaganda for him. 

But yeah, sure, 90% and 96% of the people voted to break away from Ukraine. You are not a serious person here on this subject at all. 

 

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39 minutes ago, User said:

No, what is silly, outright beyond belief, is your pushing those referendums as some above-board thing as if Russia played no nefarious role there. 

Again, this is why I say you support Putin. You are here pushing his Propaganda for him. 

But yeah, sure, 90% and 96% of the people voted to break away from Ukraine. You are not a serious person here on this subject at all. 

 

Oh I think both Russia and the USA played "nefarious" roles there. But over 90% voted for separation from Ukraine. Do you think Russia was able to force such results on the public? Perhaps you think the separatists forced the people to vote so overwhelmingly for separation? Pfft...please...

Tell ya what...you continue to push for WWIII over a NATO reject that has no real value to you, me or any of us. And if that world war happens, you can watch humanity die at your feet but sooth the pain by telling yourself "Russia Bad". Ya...that'll be reasonable while your children are sent to die. I'll continue to argue for common fcking sense. I'll continue to provide information from independent news from celebrated and decorated Americans who in your view...simply must be traitors.

In the end, should WWIII break out in Europe, it will not be Russia attacking a NATO nation. It'll be a NATO nation...probably either Poland or the USA...or both together...attacking Russia. Oh you'll just love it. And as all our children are either blown all over the place, or disintegrated, or irradiated and melt into the ground...you can tell yourself how justified its all been because...as all good lemmings know..."Russia Bad".

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40 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Oh I think both Russia and the USA played "nefarious" roles there. But over 90% voted for separation from Ukraine. Do you think Russia was able to force such results on the public? Perhaps you think the separatists forced the people to vote so overwhelmingly for separation? Pfft...please...

I don't think, I know Russia played a nefarious role. I have already outlined how in several other posts you have ignored. If you are so interested in the truth, why don't you get back to me on how many polling locations were opened for this referendum as compared to normal elections? Where were they located to facilitate fair voting for everyone? Who was running them? Where are the observers of the process? Security over the voting?

Never mind the fundamental illegality of such a referendum and Russia's aforementioned meddling beforehand. 

None of this information is hidden, these are all well documented criticisms of the illegitimacy of the referendums. This is exactly the kind of shadow war, covert operations, and propaganda Russia deployed to justify their invasion and here you are pushing it. I honestly do not believe you are so ignorant as to simply be unaware of this information, and I have pointed this out several times already to which you ignore. 

You are not a serious person here on this subject at all. You might as well be a paid operative for Russia. 

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55 minutes ago, User said:

I don't think, I know Russia played a nefarious role. I have already outlined how in several other posts you have ignored. If you are so interested in the truth, why don't you get back to me on how many polling locations were opened for this referendum as compared to normal elections? Where were they located to facilitate fair voting for everyone? Who was running them? Where are the observers of the process? Security over the voting?

Never mind the fundamental illegality of such a referendum and Russia's aforementioned meddling beforehand. 

None of this information is hidden, these are all well documented criticisms of the illegitimacy of the referendums. This is exactly the kind of shadow war, covert operations, and propaganda Russia deployed to justify their invasion and here you are pushing it. I honestly do not believe you are so ignorant as to simply be unaware of this information, and I have pointed this out several times already to which you ignore. 

You are not a serious person here on this subject at all. You might as well be a paid operative for Russia. 

Actually...I happen to be deadly serious on this subject.

You completely ignore the acts of Nuland and her cohorts to subvert the Ukrainian government AGAINST the wishes of several EU nations. You ignore the warnings of all the military advisors from several nations, who prior to this war said the Ukrainian military is full of self-avowed neo-Nazis. You ingore the fact that it was these same neo-Nazis who fired the first shots.

Quote

"I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia," said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. "But Putin's not even a Russian. Putin's a Jew."

Dmitry – which he said is not his real name – is a native of east Ukraine and a member of the Azov battalion, a volunteer grouping that has been doing much of the frontline fighting in Ukraine's war with pro-Russia separatists. The Azov, one of many volunteer brigades to fight alongside the Ukrainian army in the east of the country, has developed a reputation for fearlessness in battle.

 

But there is an increasing worry that while the Azov and other volunteer battalions might be Ukraine's most potent and reliable force on the battlefield against the separatists, they also pose the most serious threat to the Ukrainian government, and perhaps even the state, when the conflict in the east is over. The Azov causes particular concern due to the far right, even neo-Nazi, leanings of many of its members.

 

Dmitry claimed not to be a Nazi, but waxed lyrical about Adolf Hitler as a military leader, and believes the Holocaust never happened. Not everyone in the Azov battalion thinks like Dmitry, but after speaking with dozens of its fighters and embedding on several missions during the past week in and around the strategic port city of Mariupol, the Guardian found many of them to have disturbing political views, and almost all to be intent on "bringing the fight to Kiev" when the war in the east is over.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

Once the first referendum on the Donbas region was done, a commando unit headed by Russian citizen Igor Girkin seized Sloviansk in Donetsk oblast. The Ukrainian military launched an operation against them.

It was Ukrainian forces who fired the first shots and started the war in 2014.

Should Igor Girkin have even been there? Should he and Ukrainian separatists have taken control of Sloviansk? Girkin likely had no business being there. The Ukrainian separatists had every right to be there.

Should Nuland have orchestrated a coup in Kiev? No. All she did was rub salt in an open wound and again...AGAINST the wishes of the EU.

There's a lot of blame to go around here. But TODAY...Ukraine is out of military forces, is losing ground and men, has limited arms and cannot realistically hope to regain any of those regions Russia has taken.

Thus common sense and historical events show the proper path forward is to reach a peace agreement. I would beg those directly involved to make that happen before some dumb fck decides to attack Russia directly from a NATO nation.

The consequences of which are unthinkable.

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27 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Actually...I happen to be deadly serious on this subject.

Clearly not. Your response was to ignore the subject yet again and now say NAZI!

Your tactic here is to muddy the water and obfuscate to avoid having to respond to the questions regarding the referendum being illegitimate and phony, backed by the nefarious intentions of Russia. 

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7 minutes ago, User said:

Clearly not. Your response was to ignore the subject yet again and now say NAZI!

Your tactic here is to muddy the water and obfuscate to avoid having to respond to the questions regarding the referendum being illegitimate and phony, backed by the nefarious intentions of Russia. 

"AHHH!!! RUSSIA BAD!!!"

I got news for ya son...they're ALL bad and what they are doing is herding the population towards the ultimate doom.

Enjoy that...

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3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

"AHHH!!! RUSSIA BAD!!!"

I got news for ya son...they're ALL bad and what they are doing is herding the population towards the ultimate doom.

Enjoy that...

Once again, you attempt to justify and support the Russian invasion of Ukraine with some phony moral equivalency game. The only problem is that for you saying they are all bad, you have yet to admit much of anything bad Russia has done. You ignore it, downplay it, justify it, or obfuscate it.  

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48 minutes ago, User said:

Once again, you attempt to justify and support the Russian invasion of Ukraine with some phony moral equivalency game. The only problem is that for you saying they are all bad, you have yet to admit much of anything bad Russia has done. You ignore it, downplay it, justify it, or obfuscate it.  

Enjoy your mass death. At least you aren't getting your head blown off. Hurrah...

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