User Posted June 10 Report Share Posted June 10 10 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Ukraine has no leverage! Why the hell do you think Zelinsky is holding this peace conference? He's hoping NATO will give him leverage. You are just obfuscating now. Ukraine has more leverage with NATO/US support, which you oppose. Again, the point being: " you support it ending in the most beneficial way to Russia, on their terms, leaving Ukraine high and dry. " 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 10 Report Share Posted June 10 1 hour ago, User said: You are just obfuscating now. Ukraine has more leverage with NATO/US support, which you oppose. Again, the point being: " you support it ending in the most beneficial way to Russia, on their terms, leaving Ukraine high and dry. " The question then becomes, do the US and NATO support an on-going proxy war with Russia and will it remain a proxy war? On both counts, I don't think so, but we will see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 10 Report Share Posted June 10 43 minutes ago, Nationalist said: The question then becomes, do the US and NATO support an on-going proxy war with Russia and will it remain a proxy war? On both counts, I don't think so, but we will see. The US and NATO have been involved in proxy wars with Russia since 1949. At one time, it was a given that most Americans supported many of these wars. Unfortunately, with social media we now have bad faith actors making the USA out to be the "bad guys" and Russia as the "good guys." 10 years ago i laughed at this type of propaganda. wondering who would be foolish enough to fall for it. Sadly a significant percentage of Americans have, including most of the Republican Party. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 10 Report Share Posted June 10 6 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: The US and NATO have been involved in proxy wars with Russia since 1949. At one time, it was a given that most Americans supported many of these wars. Unfortunately, with social media we now have bad faith actors making the USA out to be the "bad guys" and Russia as the "good guys." 10 years ago i laughed at this type of propaganda. wondering who would be foolish enough to fall for it. Sadly a significant percentage of Americans have, including most of the Republican Party. Lol...such simple analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 3 hours ago, Nationalist said: The question then becomes, do the US and NATO support an on-going proxy war with Russia and will it remain a proxy war? On both counts, I don't think so, but we will see. LOL, you are the one pushing Russian propaganda to support their proxy war in the Donbas before their full invasion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 9 hours ago, User said: LOL, you are the one pushing Russian propaganda to support their proxy war in the Donbas before their full invasion. You're running out of arguments aren't you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 2 hours ago, Nationalist said: You're running out of arguments aren't you. I keep repeating what you keep ignoring. They are working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 12 minutes ago, User said: I keep repeating what you keep ignoring. They are working. What is it you think I'm ignoring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Reality. Morality. Common sense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 53 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Reality. Morality. Common sense. Reality: https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.php?country1=ukraine&country2=russia Morality: When one side is outnumbered and out gunned, when one side is out of soldiers and arms, the "moral" thing to do is sue for peace. Common Sense: When one side is outnumbered and out gunned, when one side is out of soldiers and arms, "common sense" and history dictate the thing to do is sue for peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 39 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Morality: When one side is outnumbered and out gunned, when one side is out of soldiers and arms, the "moral" thing to do is sue for peace. Common Sense: When one side is outnumbered and out gunned, when one side is out of soldiers and arms, "common sense" and history dictate the thing to do is sue for peace. Duplicity: You support ensuring that one side doesn't have more help and firepower. Wars are not fought and won on a stats spreadsheet. Ukraine is not out of soldiers or arms. 2 hours ago, Nationalist said: What is it you think I'm ignoring? In this instance: "LOL, you are the one pushing Russian propaganda to support their proxy war in the Donbas before their full invasion. " 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 9 minutes ago, User said: Duplicity: You support ensuring that one side doesn't have more help and firepower. Wars are not fought and won on a stats spreadsheet. Ukraine is not out of soldiers or arms. In this instance: "LOL, you are the one pushing Russian propaganda to support their proxy war in the Donbas before their full invasion. " I support peace and do not want my tax money p1ssed away. The web is chalk full of articles reporting the lack of soldiers and arms. Its also chalk full of articles about Ukrainian draft dodgers. Reality...you might wanna try it. I don't remember saying anything about this before Russia invaded. Perhaps you can refresh my memory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 5 minutes ago, Nationalist said: I support peace and do not want my tax money p1ssed away. No, you support "peace" on the most favorable terms for Russia to choose to engage in. Leaving Ukraine high and dry doesn't mean Russia engages in peace; it means they have all the leverage and power to do as they please, which can be the full-scale conquest of Ukraine and killing more people along the way. What you are doing is encouraging more war and more aggression. 7 minutes ago, Nationalist said: The web is chalk full of articles reporting the lack of soldiers and arms. Its also chalk full of articles about Ukrainian draft dodgers. Reality...you might wanna try it. Having issues with replenishing ranks, just as Russia has as well, does not equal your extreme exaggerations that they are out. US/NATO continue to provide more arms and funding to them... they are not out. Reality is just fine for me, not for you. You are the one who keeps ignoring these things and pushing dishonest, extreme statements. 9 minutes ago, Nationalist said: I don't remember saying anything about this before Russia invaded. Perhaps you can refresh my memory? I am not playing this dumb game with you, as if you don't remember our discussions around what happened in the Donbas before this full scale invasion and how you completely ignored, downplay, or outright push Russian propaganda to avoid the facts of their involvement there in starting that proxy war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 4 minutes ago, User said: No, you support "peace" on the most favorable terms for Russia to choose to engage in. Leaving Ukraine high and dry doesn't mean Russia engages in peace; it means they have all the leverage and power to do as they please, which can be the full-scale conquest of Ukraine and killing more people along the way. What you are doing is encouraging more war and more aggression. User...Ukraine never stood a snowball's chance in Hell of withstanding the Russian invasion and taking back any of the region Russia had designs on. Three years into this asinine exhibition, that has always been the case and is outrageously evident now. And you are correct. Russia does have all the leverage at this point. Gee...maybe Zelinsky should have ignored Johnson in 2022...eh? 9 minutes ago, User said: Having issues with replenishing ranks, just as Russia has as well, does not equal your extreme exaggerations that they are out. US/NATO continue to provide more arms and funding to them... they are not out. Reality is just fine for me, not for you. You are the one who keeps ignoring these things and pushing dishonest, extreme statements. I just finished showing you the numbers. Its not me pushing for further killing. That would be you. Reality...try it. 13 minutes ago, User said: I am not playing this dumb game with you, as if you don't remember our discussions around what happened in the Donbas before this full scale invasion and how you completely ignored, downplay, or outright push Russian propaganda to avoid the facts of their involvement there in starting that proxy war. Ah ok...now I understand what you're getting at. As I said then...BOTH Russia and NATO/USA were involved in that Donbas region before that invasion started. Again...reality...try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 25 minutes ago, Nationalist said: I just finished showing you the numbers. Its not me pushing for further killing. That would be you. Reality...try it. Yes it is. You're literally saying if that chart shows one country has bigger numbers than others, they can do whatever they want. They can invade anyone they like, and it's immoral to resist them. In your batshit clownworld, friends and neighbors providing you equipment and support to even those statistical disadvantages and stop the bigger numbers from killing you is somehow "immoral". You're so dumb it makes me cringe. I literally feel sorry for you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 6 minutes ago, Nationalist said: User...Ukraine never stood a snowball's chance in Hell of withstanding the Russian invasion and taking back any of the region Russia had designs on. Three years into this asinine exhibition, that has always been the case and is outrageously evident now. And you are correct. Russia does have all the leverage at this point. Gee...maybe Zelinsky should have ignored Johnson in 2022...eh? How did you actually type this up and think it was a good argument? You say Ukraine never stood a snowballs chance in Hell of withstanding an invasion and then in the next breath complain about how we are 3 years into this. Ummm... do I need to spell out how you just proved yourself wrong? No, I did not say Russia has all the leverage now, I said you want to give them all the leverage. Stop twisting my words to make up these crappy dishonest arguments. Stop retreading your same defeated arguments about Johnson. 23 minutes ago, Nationalist said: I just finished showing you the numbers. Its not me pushing for further killing. That would be you. Reality...try it. You are making some bad argument that if Russia has X troops and X equipment and Ukraine only has Y, then Russia wins! And yet here we are 3 years later... I am pushing for Ukraine to defend themselves and support them so that more of them live and more Russians die. Your plan doesn't ensure less die, it ensures that Russia can kill as many more as they can more easily. Your plan welcomes aggression and more wars as it is weakness and invites countries like Russia to engage in more warfare. 26 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Ah ok...now I understand what you're getting at. As I said then...BOTH Russia and NATO/USA were involved in that Donbas region before that invasion started. Again...reality...try it. Yeah, no kidding Ukraine/NATO/US were involved there. IT WAS UKRAINE TERRITORY. You are still not admitting to anything, you ignore that Russia was engaged in a proxy war there to sow dissent and directly engaged in military support to do so. That is not equivalent to Ukraine and its allies being there... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 11 Author Report Share Posted June 11 21 minutes ago, User said: I am pushing for Ukraine to defend themselves and support them so that more of them live and more Russians die. That's the thing, though. The death toll is high for both sides. In the west, they simply don't point to the Ukrainian toll as much. It would point to the sheer futility of this conflict. They are simply holding onto the land they have left. Russia is satisfied with this game of holding appearances. They have been unable to regain the land they have lost. Russia is simply outgunning them right now. The only way out of this quagmire, is via talks. Wait until Putin dies, is a horrible strategy, as he is in it for the long haul. War is strategy. I fail to see Ukraine's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: War is strategy. I fail to see Ukraine's. Because you don't want to. On the one hand, you have Ukrainian men giving their lives to protect their independence and their future from the hopelessness of Mother Russia's sickly embrace. On the other, you have Russian peasants dying for nothing but the vanity of an ex-KGB colonel. Who's strategy and motivation makes more sense? Edited June 11 by Moonbox 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 12 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: That's the thing, though. The death toll is high for both sides. In the west, they simply don't point to the Ukrainian toll as much. It would point to the sheer futility of this conflict. The futility to resist a Russian invasion? Let me spell this out for you: Russia is invading Ukraine. They started this war, they are continuing to push this war. Ukraine is not engaged in this out of some futile effort, they are engaged in their survival. 13 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: They are simply holding onto the land they have left. Russia is satisfied with this game of holding appearances. No, that is not all they are simply doing at all. Russia continues and has been continually engaged in aggressive warfare to invade Ukraine. 14 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: They have been unable to regain the land they have lost. Russia is simply outgunning them right now. Wrong. Ukraine has made massive gains since the initial invasion push, and while most of the battlefield has remained stagnant since then, both Russia and Ukraine have went back and forth on smaller territorial gains. This is why we should support Ukraine, so Russia doesn't have a massive advantage. 20 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: The only way out of this quagmire, is via talks. Wait until Putin dies, is a horrible strategy, as he is in it for the long haul. War is strategy. I fail to see Ukraine's. Ukraine is not fighting this war because they like war. Again, Russia invaded. War for Ukraine is not a choice, it is necessary to their survival. That is the strategy. Survive, beat Russia. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 11 Author Report Share Posted June 11 26 minutes ago, User said: The futility to resist a Russian invasion? Justified 100%. They lawfully have the right to defend themselves. Am pointing to the futility of making this a very long war of attrition. This favors Russia. They have the man power to play the long game. Ukraine does not. Sooner or later, one will have to accept that negotiations may be the only way out of this. 29 minutes ago, User said: Russia and Ukraine have went back and forth on smaller territorial gains. I look at overall gain. Russias are significant and strategic. Ukraines aren't at the same level overall, or they would have pushed Russia out of its country. 31 minutes ago, User said: This is why we should support Ukraine, so Russia doesn't have a massive advantage. Just a slight one. 32 minutes ago, User said: Ukraine is not fighting this war because they like war Its survival. You're not beating Russia by surviving. You're doing just that. Surviving to see another day. Both sides are losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 50 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: Am pointing to the futility of making this a very long war of attrition. This favors Russia. They have the man power to play the long game. Ukraine does not. Sooner or later, one will have to accept that negotiations may be the only way out of this. I look at overall gain. Russias are significant and strategic. Ukraines aren't at the same level overall, or they would have pushed Russia out of its country. Its survival. You're not beating Russia by surviving. You're doing just that. Surviving to see another day. Both sides are losing. You obviously have never heard of the Soviet invasion/occupation of Afghanistan (1979-89). The Russians may have "won" the war, but the constant insurgency by Afghani rebels bled the Soviet Union dry, and contributed to it's demise. This is what Ukraine is doing right now. Russia has been weakened to a point where Poland alone would easily defeat them, right now. A weak Russia is beneficial to North America. So unless you hate our way of life, I suggest you look in the mirror, and reevaluate your priorities. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 2 hours ago, Nationalist said: User...Ukraine never stood a snowball's chance in Hell of withstanding the Russian invasion and taking back any of the region Russia had designs on. Three years into this asinine exhibition, that has always been the case and is outrageously evident now. And you are correct. Russia does have all the leverage at this point. Putin, the Kremlin, and a bunch of fools like the disgraced alcoholic Douglas MacGregor, and the convicted sex offender Scott Ritter claimed that Russia would defeat Ukraine in "less than 48 hours." It's now been nearly 2 1/2 years. 2 hours ago, Nationalist said: I just finished showing you the numbers. Its not me pushing for further killing. That would be you. Reality...try it. The numbers? Like 500,000 Russian casualties of war. Considering the low birth rate in Russia, and the fact that most of the people dying are men 18-40, this will set Russia back a decade at least. 2 hours ago, Nationalist said: Ah ok...now I understand what you're getting at. As I said then...BOTH Russia and NATO/USA were involved in that Donbas region before that invasion started. Again...reality...try it. NATO/USA was not involved in Donesk. Why do you side with Russia over NATO? Did you hate North America so much that you would pull a "Quisling" and collaborate with Canada's enemies? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Justified 100%. They lawfully have the right to defend themselves. Am pointing to the futility of making this a very long war of attrition. This favors Russia. They have the man power to play the long game. Ukraine does not. Sooner or later, one will have to accept that negotiations may be the only way out of this. That futility is on Russia then, not Ukraine for resisting. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: I look at overall gain. Russias are significant and strategic. Ukraines aren't at the same level overall, or they would have pushed Russia out of its country. You can't just look at overall gain. It is a war with give and take on the Battlefield. You tried to claim they have been unable to regain land they have lost, I pointed out that they regained a great deal of land from the initial invasion and continue to pick at land here and there. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Just a slight one. And? Do you not support our giving support to Ukraine? 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Its survival. You're not beating Russia by surviving. You're doing just that. Surviving to see another day. Both sides are losing. Yes, you are in fact beating Russia if their goal is to fully invade and you are stopping them, you are beating them and surviving. Again, Ukraine has no choice here, they lose or they try to win and survive. You keep framing this up as if Ukraine is the one instigating this war by fighting back. They lose... or they really lose. What is it you want? You want Ukraine to really lose and Russia to conquer them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 11 Author Report Share Posted June 11 43 minutes ago, User said: And? Do you not support our giving support to Ukraine? I would and will vote for a candidate that would put pressure on Ukraine to take a deal. 44 minutes ago, User said: You want Ukraine to really lose and Russia to conquer them? I want both countries to accept a peace agreement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 4 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: I would and will vote for a candidate that would put pressure on Ukraine to take a deal. You did not answer my question. Do you support NATO/US giving $$$ and materials to Ukraine to help them stop Russia from invading? 4 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: I want both countries to accept a peace agreement. Another dodge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.