Should Stores Checking Receipts be Made Unlawful?

[Perspektiv]

I shop at Costco, and have gotten used to the standard receipt check at the exits. You technically sign up for it with your membership.

However, many piggy back one membership for multiple people (or so I have heard....honest).

So, self checkouts have staff checking your photo on your membership at some branches.

I have had my bags "randomly" searched so many times, am starting to believe nothing random was about it.

I get it at airports, but is it justified in stores?

Do you comply?

[TreeBeard]

Make it unlawful to look for thieves?   That seems odd.  Do I call 9-1-1 if a place asks for my receipt?

Edited January 18 by TreeBeard

[Perspektiv]

16 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Make it unlawful to look for thieves?

Its assuming all are guilty, until proven innocent. Doesn't sound very lawful.

[TreeBeard]

5 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

It’s assuming all are guilty, until proven innocent. Doesn't sound very lawful.

Doesn’t “innocent until proven guilty” apply to courts of law?   Do private businesses need to follow the presumption of innocence too?  Because I’ve never hear of that requirement.  

[Perspektiv]

4 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Doesn’t “innocent until proven guilty” apply to courts of law?

You're essentially accusing guests of theft by checking them, no?

Why not invest in metal detectors and security guards? This sort of puts the onus on those who actually do act suspicious and steal. 

[TreeBeard]

7 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

You're essentially accusing guests of theft by checking them, no?

If your feelings are hurt, go to Walmart.  
 

7 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Why not invest in metal detectors and security guards?

$$$

[Perspektiv]

3 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

If your feelings are hurt, go to Walmart.  
 

My feelings aren't hurt. I signed up for Costco knowing this would be part of the deal.

Am eluding to this growing movement of people who will resist this or worse, stores that do it at random on people who did not steal. 

Most people in airports in the US who get stopped on random checks, are black.

An overwhelming amount of them, get cash confiscated and have to fight tooth and nail to get it back.

Carrying cash and being at the airport aren't illegal.

So why is this practice accepted?

3 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

$$$

It also costs a lot of money to hire staff right now. Salaries have ballooned.

Many stores chains had to truly invest in security, to reduce theft. 

Not sure what point you're trying to make.

[August1991]

On 1/18/2024 at 1:10 PM, TreeBeard said:

If your feelings are hurt, go to Walmart.

Agreed.

Costco vs Walmart - pay more but wait less in line.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 1/18/2024 at 1:07 AM, TreeBeard said:

Doesn’t “innocent until proven guilty” apply to courts of law?   Do private businesses need to follow the presumption of innocence too?  Because I’ve never hear of that requirement.  

Stores are free to ask to see your receipts, but you don't have to show anyone anything when you're leaving their property with your own property that you've just purchased.  They aren't the police, and even the police couldn't force you to show you any ID or your receipt because in order to detain and ID you they need reasonable suspicious that you've committed a crime, which they wouldn't have if you haven't done anything wrong.

If stores want to catch thieves then they should have cameras in their stores and cameras at their self-checkouts and do actual security work instead of treating all of their customers like crime suspects.

So at Wal-mart they used to check receipts, for which you could legally refuse.  At Costco it's more complicated because you sign an agreement and have a membership based on that.  There's lots of videos on Youtube of people refusing receipt checks at Walmart and the employees freaking out, and some harassing the customers by following them to their car and starting confrontations.

Edited January 20 by Moonlight Graham

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If stores want to catch thieves then they should have cameras in their stores and cameras at their self-checkouts and do actual security work instead of treating all of their customers like crime suspects

What I do like about Costco, is that everyone is subjected to it. 

What I don't like about Wal-Mart, is that "random" checks, are in fact targeted ones.

I don't know a single white peer of mine who had a receipt check at a Wal-Mart.

I was pulled aside while with friends with a single vacuum cleaner in my cart.

The clerk demanded to see my receipt in an accusatory tone. I happily showed it to them.

It should have been a rather quick exchange, but he took his time to stand up the vacuum box, and check the receipt, repeated the action, while looking back at me several times.

It made me feel guilty, even though evidence was clear. I bought it.

I just chalked it up to being black and knowing the drill.

My white friend was insanely triggered and demanded to speak to management as he had seen the treatment.

The DEA in the US regularly seize billions of dollars of cash from travelers.

Doesn't seem like a big deal, until you find out about 10% of these cases ever end in conviction. 

The key proponent of the vast majority of the "random" checks?

Often wealthy black people decked out in designer headed to LAX.

Imagine, you strike it rich, and money doesn't matter. You're still black at the airport. 

These are checks that you're allowed to refuse, but agents use intimidation and pressure to commence them.

Its lawful to have cash on hand up to a certain amount, but these agents can confiscate the money, forcing you to legally fight to get it back.

To me, this should be a sweeping brush if you're genuinely trying to curb crime.

Otherwise it's just an excuse to racially profile people.

On 1/18/2024 at 1:10 PM, TreeBeard said:

If your feelings are hurt, go to Walmart.

I never got treated like this at a Costco. I did at Wal-Marts. 

My skin color makes me look suspicious if I have an expensive item. 

I was stopped at an airport for having expensive gifts in my suitcase. Police escort and all. All gifts legal.

I was quickly allowed to leave, after having a dozen armed cops order me to follow them, aggressively right before boarding a flight.

If I don't have ice in my veins  under pressure and remain calm and protest, am likely violently arrested.

Sorry, but doesn't sound like a switch where you shop solution.

[Moonlight Graham]

27 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

What I do like about Costco, is that everyone is subjected to it. 

What I don't like about Wal-Mart, is that "random" checks, are in fact targeted ones.

I don't know a single white peer of mine who had a receipt check at a Wal-Mart.

I was pulled aside while with friends with a single vacuum cleaner in my cart.

The clerk demanded to see my receipt in an accusatory tone. I happily showed it to them.

It should have been a rather quick exchange, but he took his time to stand up the vacuum box, and check the receipt, repeated the action, while looking back at me several times.

It made me feel guilty, even though evidence was clear. I bought it.

I just chalked it up to being black and knowing the drill.

My white friend was insanely triggered and demanded to speak to management as he had seen the treatment.

The DEA in the US regularly seize billions of dollars of cash from travelers.

Doesn't seem like a big deal, until you find out about 10% of these cases ever end in conviction. 

The key proponent of the vast majority of the "random" checks?

Often wealthy black people decked out in designer headed to LAX.

Imagine, you strike it rich, and money doesn't matter. You're still black at the airport. 

These are checks that you're allowed to refuse, but agents use intimidation and pressure to commence them.

Its lawful to have cash on hand up to a certain amount, but these agents can confiscate the money, forcing you to legally fight to get it back.

To me, this should be a sweeping brush if you're genuinely trying to curb crime.

Otherwise it's just an excuse to racially profile people.

Next time go tell the Walmart "greeter" aka security guard to bugger off and continue walking towards your vehicle, and if they have an issue tell them they can call the cops.  Make sure you have your camera recording the interaction in case they do something illegal, because you can be assured they're recording you for the same reason.

And when the cops show up and the cop asks to see your receipt or ID ask the cop if they have reasonable suspicion that you've committed a crime, and when they say "no" tell them "have a nice day" and then calmly enter your vehicle and drive home and enjoy your luxurious Walmart goods.

This is how our legal rights work in this country.  Our Charter guarantees against unreasonable search and seizure by police and certainly from minimum wage Walmart security who don't know anything about the law.  We don't live in a police state and shouldn't let our politeness and induced fear from corporate bullies convince us to ignore our Charter rights.

The moment you're finished paying for your goods at the checkout the commercial transaction is finished, it's now your rightful private property, and what's in your bag is nobody's business.  Walmart can prevent you from entering their private property with a trespass order, but they can't prevent you from leaving it with the possible that they have reasonable cause to believe that you've committed a crime.  Being black or being a customer isn't good enough justification.

It sucks that Walmart is victim to a lot of theft, but they chose to install self-checkouts in order to save money on cashiers, and they have every right to watch all their customers on camera while they shop and check out.  So instead of harassing innocent customers they should pay for more security staff, which obviously they don't want to do.  I invite you to research your legal rights.

Edited January 21 by Moonlight Graham

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

if they have an issue tell them they can call the cops. 

Thats a bad idea for someone like me. 

Last thing a black man wants, is the police being called on you by a white person who is afraid. If its a woman and she's crying, you could potentially be facing a life and death situation.

Best and wisest to comply and make a complaint later.

I remember during covid lockdowns I got into a dispute in a grocery store by an entitled Karen.

She refused to move her cart and was standing sideways in the aisle. So I grabbed it, and moved it for her.

My mistake? I should have said "please". How about not block the entire grocery aisle? 

I walked away, and she followed me and "wasn't finished".

I knew then and there my options were limited. Threatening and aggressive, and it's the police.

Put her in her place, was escalation. I stood to lose.

Offer a solution was best. She didn't like it, I didn't care. I walked off. She didn't follow.

Police make people like me nervous, even though am a pro police person.

Nothing wrong with cops. Something wrong when people use them on people like me for BS reasons.

Luckily this hasn't happened to me often enough to make me want to really escalate things. 

I just know how it feels.

 

[herbie]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Last thing a black man wants, is the police being called on you by a white person who is afraid.

Right, because only the police do racial profiling. It doesn't even exist among anyone else. [/s]

( Ignoring the Costco guy following the Native lady everywhere and demanding she open her purse after she took out a Kleenex )

[Moonlight Graham]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Thats a bad idea for someone like me. 

Last thing a black man wants, is the police being called on you by a white person who is afraid. If its a woman and she's crying, you could potentially be facing a life and death situation.

Best and wisest to comply and make a complaint later.

I remember during covid lockdowns I got into a dispute in a grocery store by an entitled Karen.

She refused to move her cart and was standing sideways in the aisle. So I grabbed it, and moved it for her.

My mistake? I should have said "please". How about not block the entire grocery aisle? 

I walked away, and she followed me and "wasn't finished".

I knew then and there my options were limited. Threatening and aggressive, and it's the police.

Put her in her place, was escalation. I stood to lose.

Offer a solution was best. She didn't like it, I didn't care. I walked off. She didn't follow.

Police make people like me nervous, even though am a pro police person.

Nothing wrong with cops. Something wrong when people use them on people like me for BS reasons.

Luckily this hasn't happened to me often enough to make me want to really escalate things. 

I just know how it feels.

 

Most cops, especially in Canada, will start complying with the law when they know they're being recorded.

Different situation than the cart lady.  You shouldn't have touched her cart, like Walmart employees shouldn't touch your parcels.

Anyways I get your fears.  Good luck.

[Perspektiv]

13 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Most cops, especially in Canada, will start complying with the law when they know they're being recorded.

Mercifully. 

I have seen cops immediately change tune when they saw it was the case.

Now most are savvy of this, which does improve their behavior.

15 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Anyways I get your fears.

Police makes us nervous even if we are law abiding. 

With that said, I love the police so wouldn't bad mouth them as a group.

[Michael Hardner]

11 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1. Next time go tell the Walmart "greeter" aka security guard to bugger off and continue walking towards your vehicle, and if they have an issue tell them they can call the cops.  Make sure you have your camera recording the interaction in case they do something illegal, because you can be assured they're recording you for the same reason.

And when the cops show up and the cop asks to see your receipt or ID ask the cop if they have reasonable suspicion that you've committed a crime, and when they say "no" tell them "have a nice day" and then calmly enter your vehicle and drive home and enjoy your luxurious Walmart goods.

 

2. The moment you're finished paying for your goods at the checkout the commercial transaction is finished, it's now your rightful private property, and what's in your bag is nobody's business.  Walmart can prevent you from entering their private property with a trespass order, but they can't prevent you from leaving it with the possible that they have reasonable cause to believe that you've committed a crime.  Being black or being a customer isn't good enough justification.

.

1. 2. I was going to disagree with you but after reading this I think that you are right.

That said, the transaction is not done because you entered their premises in a condition and haven't left yet.  But, no, nobody can ever prevent you from leaving anywhere without a good reason.

[herbie]

15 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

That said, the transaction is not done because you entered their premises in a condition and haven't left yet.  But, no, nobody can ever prevent you from leaving anywhere without a good reason.

And for $15 an hour, no one's likely to. Clerks will ignore you., security might yell, fuss and snap a pic to send to the cops who might, just moght respond. In 5 years, the pic will go into the store's computer which will flag you with facial recognition cameras at the entry and you'll be barred from entry. The guy monitoring the indoor cameras from India will get 5 rupees to push the button and enter a still of anyone he sees shoplifting on the 300 cameras of the 50 stores he has to monitor.

[Perspektiv]

12 hours ago, herbie said:

And for $15 an hour, no one's likely to

Exactly. 

It should be assumed at Costco, as you look suspicious as heck in refusing to be checked, when everyone else gladly does so.

At a Wal-Mart, you will get rent a cop style clerks, but most at that salary level won't give a s***.

I know as a matter of fact, that I didn't care if I saw someone shoplifting. 

I sold bus tickets. Got antsy clients demanding student pricing, when they clearly were pushing 60 and weren't students.

I just ran it, vs getting into a 10 minute heated argument with a client, all for the massive salary if just a couple dollars over minimum wage.

I remember a client we had who clearly was suffering from serious mental health issues, hence me not wanting to fight with her.

My co-worker who had studied in Philisophy at a university felt it was his life duty to uphold policy at any cost. People should never be enabled.

Noble. For minimum wage? Not so much.

So I was stuck with a client, and she went to him. Asked for the student pass.

He said no. She insisted all other clerks allowed it. He said he didn't care.

She starts yelling and calling him an i***t  he tells her he only sees one "i***t, and she is standing right in front of me trying to fraudulently purchase student tickets".

In my mind I screamed "World Star!", knowing violence was imminent, and got up and away from my counter.

A few objects were thrown at him, she spat in his direction and tried to climb, all the while he had a satisfied grin on his face as someone who had upheld the calls of his duty.

He's that clerk who gets shot  trying to chase someone for stealing chips.

[herbie]

Exactly.

During the height of the lockdowns unionized staff at the grocery store refused to stop checking out unmasked customers under the right to refuse unsafe work rules. The manager when called told them just check the guy through and get him out of the store ASAP, do't hold up everyone making a scene.

Only time the cops showed was when other customers went after the antimask a$$hole out in the parking lot.

[Yakuda]

19 minutes ago, herbie said:

Exactly.

During the height of the lockdowns unionized staff at the grocery store refused to stop checking out unmasked customers under the right to refuse unsafe work rules. The manager when called told them just check the guy through and get him out of the store ASAP, do't hold up everyone making a scene.

Only time the cops showed was when other customers went after the antimask a$$hole out in the parking lot.

I remember those mask kooks. Loony tunes. We now know it was all made up as they went along. 

[Aristides]

Quote

The DEA in the US regularly seize billions of dollars of cash from travelers.

You must declare cash when entering the country  if it is over 10K. It's the law in Canada as well.

[Perspektiv]

13 hours ago, Aristides said:

You must declare cash when entering the country  if it is over 10K.

The amounts am eluding to were under 10 000$. 

I saw a person who had 27 000$ on him, declared it, and had it confiscated.

He was going to buy a truck and had the sale approved, along with paper work.

He had to fight for a very long time to be cleared of wrongdoing and have his money returned.

If a police officer "randomly" checks me and demands to know why I have 5, 000$ on me, am a black male. I already know I  need to deescalate. If I protest, they can hit me with bogus charges.

These checks aren't random. They are targeted, in that the majority are black people. They also don't work, as they only convict about 10% of people.

I have been pulled aside multiple times. I know the game, so I play along, as not looking to go to jail for "knowing my rights".

IE I bought a duty free bottle of liquor. Am of drinking age in the US.

A cop stops me as am heading to my flights gate area.

Demands to see my ID. I gladly show him my license.

Am all smiles, he's clearly in a bad mood.

Demands to know where am taking the alcohol. 

"Its a gift"

Do you have a receipt? 

*shows the officer the receipt*.

Every question he has. Am still smiling and answering. He is being insanely aggressive and combative. 

He then gives me a long stare down, like it will get him a confession, then tells me in a stern tone to be careful in the airport.

Careful of what?! Am more worried about an officer than anyone else.

I took a picture of an aircraft outside from inside another airport, and an officer approached me aggressively demanding to see my pictures and ordering me to delete my shot.

All this after creating a scene and pulling me aside in a way to attempt to intimidate me.

I have a top secret government clearance. Anyone checking my record would be disappointed. 

[Aristides]

A standard question when you cross a border is do you have more than 10K in cash or how much cash do you have? I never had more than 10K but  I have taken as much as 4K when we used to winter down south and never had an issue. I always declared it even though it was less than 10K.  Do you think people should be able to bring in suitcases full of cash, no questions asked?

Racial profiling is another issue.

Edited January 24 by Aristides

[Perspektiv]

20 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Do you think people should be able to bring in suitcases full of cash, no questions asked?

All amounts were lawful amounts.

If I have 5, 700$ on me, there legally should be no questions asked.

Am within the law.

You can't legally confiscate my legal money, but who is going to fight police officers?

 

 

[TreeBeard]

6 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I have a top secret government clearance.

It seems most people who post on the internet claim stuff like this.