Nikki Haley’s War with China

[Moonlight Graham]

On 12/28/2023 at 5:53 PM, Rebound said:

Tough talk might make you feel good, but destroying our relationship with our largest trading partner, the world’s largest nation, second largest economy and Asia’s largest military power is utterly foolish and incredibly dangerous.  

You're living under a rock.  China has been destroying the relationship, not the other way around.  I think we should take as much of our business out of China as we can, and hope every other democratic country does the same.  The US needs to lead on that.  I'm very willing to pay higher prices on goods to do it.  I think it would be absolutely fantastic if the Chinese economy went into a significant tailspin for a very long time, and they'd have nobody to blame but themselves.

Canada should also expel all Chinese government officials from the country until they clean up their act.  All IT technology from Chinese companies should also be banned for sale in Canada immediately.

I actually think we should take every measure possible to undermine China in any way we can, minus direct military conflict (unless they attack one of our key interests first).  It is the new Cold War unfortunately and it's their fault because they're a bunch of a-holes, bullies, and thieves and none of it should be tolerated for a second longer.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:28 PM, Michael Hardner said:

Point of reference: the USA imports iPhones from China.  Apple profits from this arrangement.

So does China.  Manufacturing jobs, and they get to spy on Apple's factories in China and steal all of Apple's intellectual property and then sell the technology back to Americans at an undercut price (Hauwei, OnePlus etc).  They do this with televisions too (TCL, Hisense) and every other type of IT tech.  It must be nice to not have to pay any R&D in order to beat your competition.

Go to any Chinese market/mall and you're going to find a ton of cheaply made counterfeit goods.  Slap a different brand label on them and you have products/companies like Hauwei.  This is how Chinese companies and the government do business.  They're thieves.   Don't get me started on India 😂

And if a US company doesn't like something, the Chinese gov will just bully/scare them into compliance, just like they treat their own citizens.  #allies

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/nortel-collapse-linked-to-chinese-hackers-1.1260591

https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-military-attack-on-nortel/

Edited December 31, 2023 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:49 PM, Rebound said:

Or… practically all of Wall-Mart, Target, Amazon and Best Buy.  

If you'd rather save a couple of bucks on some cheap plastic crap or a couple hundreds bucks on some stolen phone tech and throw western civilization under the bus have fun with that.  Count me out.

[Moonlight Graham]

For all of Trump's faults, at least he had the balls to stand up to China and tell them to suck it.

[Rebound]

16 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If you'd rather save a couple of bucks on some cheap plastic crap or a couple hundreds bucks on some stolen phone tech and throw western civilization under the bus have fun with that.  Count me out.

I do not shop at Wal-Mart, because I am aware of the fact that they force companies to outsource their American production to China, even when they’re already cost competitive.  
 

OTOH, it is impossible to buy many common goods with zero Chinese-made content. 

[herbie]

I shop at WalMart whenever I can.
For products that other stores do not and will not carry. For products other Cdn. grocery chains gouge you as much as they can for - like Ocean Spray juices that the major stores asll $5-$6 for @ $2.50-$3.50, For gluten free products that aren't $33 a dozen for hot dog buns. And their house brand pet food thats significantly cheaper than the brand name, even though it's exactly the same thing in the same box with a slightly different label of exactly thew same shape.
I'd be stupid not to buy there. Stupid enuff to believe only WalMart sells stuff from China.

Go ahead, blame China for what your own govt allowed. Toss everything made in China and we'll never hear your whining on the Internet again.

[Moonlight Graham]

2 hours ago, Rebound said:

I do not shop at Wal-Mart, because I am aware of the fact that they force companies to outsource their American production to China, even when they’re already cost competitive.  
 

OTOH, it is impossible to buy many common goods with zero Chinese-made content. 

Supporting the economy of a country that is using that wealth to steal our IP and harm our companies, steal our state secrets, infiltrate our universities to steal our research, bully and intimidate our citizens and politicians, and corrupt our democracy is insane.

The government should be putting up blocks to protect our national security, regular citizens like us shouldn't have to worry about these things when we head to the store and make buying decisions.  Our politicians have sold out to China a long time ago.

[Army Guy]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:56 PM, Rebound said:

 Utterly false. The reason this happened is China’s ridiculously cheap labor. 
 

THINK. Instead of listening to talking heads, just think for yourself.  It happened because US manufacturers and retailers outsourced all of their manufacturing to China.  Free market.  Not war. Not even “war.”  Our companies raced to outsource, and now Haley wants to pretend it’s a some kind of war? 
 

Everybody agrees that trade policies must be mutually fair, but I doubt that will lead to a trade balance, only equity.  

You should recheck your data on cheap labor, i think you'll find much cheaper labor markets exist, markets that would require heavy investment, same as when the Chinese started draining manufacturing from the west...

You talk like it can not be done, and would not benefit the globe, someone already mentioned this we in the west are addicted to cheap sub par material assets, all you have to do is incentivize US/ Western companies to move there manufacture facilities to a western friendly nation, like India, or Vietnam etc...some nations have already made this move...saying it can't be done when it is already been happening is silly....

By moving manufacture plants to either home, or another 3 rd world country would benefit everyone in the pacific region...it does not have to happen over night...who knows it may even make China more competitive....China is using this free market for it's own benefit, throwing most of its profits into their military machine...It's navy already outnumbers the US navy, it's ground forces have outpaced most nations including the US...  thinking it can not be undone, is just sticking your head in the sand...

 

[Rebound]

15 hours ago, Army Guy said:

You should recheck your data on cheap labor, i think you'll find much cheaper labor markets exist, markets that would require heavy investment, same as when the Chinese started draining manufacturing from the west...

You talk like it can not be done, and would not benefit the globe, someone already mentioned this we in the west are addicted to cheap sub par material assets, all you have to do is incentivize US/ Western companies to move there manufacture facilities to a western friendly nation, like India, or Vietnam etc...some nations have already made this move...saying it can't be done when it is already been happening is silly....

By moving manufacture plants to either home, or another 3 rd world country would benefit everyone in the pacific region...it does not have to happen over night...who knows it may even make China more competitive....China is using this free market for it's own benefit, throwing most of its profits into their military machine...It's navy already outnumbers the US navy, it's ground forces have outpaced most nations including the US...  thinking it can not be undone, is just sticking your head in the sand...

 

Vietnam is also a communist country. And while they’re manufacturing shoes and textiles, those industries are not as technologically advanced as electronics and other forms of manufacturing. The investments are large, and China has tens of thousands of mechanical and electrical engineers who can bring up and manage this level of manufacturing. 

India is a joke for manufacturing. They’re rife with corruption and it’s almost impossible to ship anything into or out of that country without paying bribes. India needs a lot of internal reform until they can become a manufacturing powerhouse.  Maybe Mohdi will do something about that, but it will take time and then the factories will need to be built. It’s not a trivial thing.

[Army Guy]

21 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Vietnam is also a communist country. And while they’re manufacturing shoes and textiles, those industries are not as technologically advanced as electronics and other forms of manufacturing. The investments are large, and China has tens of thousands of mechanical and electrical engineers who can bring up and manage this level of manufacturing. 

India is a joke for manufacturing. They’re rife with corruption and it’s almost impossible to ship anything into or out of that country without paying bribes. India needs a lot of internal reform until they can become a manufacturing powerhouse.  Maybe Mohdi will do something about that, but it will take time and then the factories will need to be built. It’s not a trivial thing.

You seem to think it is mission imposable, and yet china did not strip most of the US manufacturing over night it happened over decades....If say the US was serious about scaling down manufacturing from china it and other western countries could provide engineers/ investment required.

Perhaps India is a joke today but there are other countries in the region that could be used...somehow i get the feeling you think china is free from corruption, and scandals...what do you think of some of the US top secret aircraft components being manufacture in china without the US even knowing...how did that happen...

[Rebound]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:51 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

You're living under a rock.  China has been destroying the relationship, not the other way around.  I think we should take as much of our business out of China as we can, and hope every other democratic country does the same.  The US needs to lead on that.  I'm very willing to pay higher prices on goods to do it.  I think it would be absolutely fantastic if the Chinese economy went into a significant tailspin for a very long time, and they'd have nobody to blame but themselves.

Canada should also expel all Chinese government officials from the country until they clean up their act.  All IT technology from Chinese companies should also be banned for sale in Canada immediately.

I actually think we should take every measure possible to undermine China in any way we can, minus direct military conflict (unless they attack one of our key interests first).  It is the new Cold War unfortunately and it's their fault because they're a bunch of a-holes, bullies, and thieves and none of it should be tolerated for a second longer.

If you start a war, you get a war. Just ask the Gazans.

[Rebound]

4 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

You seem to think it is mission imposable, and yet china did not strip most of the US manufacturing over night it happened over decades....If say the US was serious about scaling down manufacturing from china it and other western countries could provide engineers/ investment required.

Perhaps India is a joke today but there are other countries in the region that could be used...somehow i get the feeling you think china is free from corruption, and scandals...what do you think of some of the US top secret aircraft components being manufacture in china without the US even knowing...how did that happen...

Have you ever been involved in the process of developing and manufacturing a product?  
 

personally, I think there are better routes to take than starting a trade war or Cold War with China

[Army Guy]

23 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Have you ever been involved in the process of developing and manufacturing a product?  
 

personally, I think there are better routes to take than starting a trade war or Cold War with China

if you mean with china, no i have not i did however research it and it is pretty easy, all the forms you need are on line, they the chinese actually walk you through the whole process, in one package... they out line the process, what you need, who to pay, etc... i don't even have to have the patent on the item, the example they use is the swiss army knife , all you have to do is remove the little red cross and they will produce the same knife copyright means nothing to them, nor does patents...they will also send your finished product to amazon and they will sell it for you....it is that easy... you don't even have to leave your house...

Personally thats your opinion, your entitled to that, not sure why reducing china's manufacturing capability would not be in the best interest of the US...i did not hear china complain as they stripped most of it from the US/ Canada becasue those American/Canadian companies need for profits...think of the jobs lost, experience lost, quality lost...someone convinced North America for the need to buy cheap shit from china...when we should be buying good quality made in America stuff, keeping our money at home... 

[Army Guy]

42 minutes ago, Rebound said:

If you start a war, you get a war. Just ask the Gazans.

Well it seems the US government and your pentagon, have already said China is the new threat, and has been for a decade now, and that cold war your talking about is already happening...

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

If you start a war, you get a war. Just ask the Gazans.

China started this.   If you don't fight back you will lose the war.  Just ask Jimmy Carter and Reagan.

Edited January 1 by Moonlight Graham

[OftenWrong]

On 12/28/2023 at 5:53 PM, Rebound said:

destroying our relationship with our largest trading partner,

China's not your biggest, is Mexico and Canada. Esp. if combined under the banner of USMCA.

Sad to disappoint,

Chyna Boi

[robosmith]

On 12/30/2023 at 11:17 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

For all of Trump's faults, at least he had the balls to stand up to China and tell them to suck it.

Of course, Trump LIED about WHO was paying the tariffs. It was US citizens.

China only paid indirectly with reduced demand due to the higher prices.

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Of course, Trump LIED about WHO was paying the tariffs. It was US citizens.

China only paid indirectly with reduced demand due to the higher prices.

Oh wow - look at who just figured out how tarrifs work and why they punish the country who can no longer sell their goods at a competative price

Lets see if we can continue his education.  So... when a tarrif gets collected, where does the money go?  That's RIGHT - it goes to the government!  And who does the gov't spend that money on? The people!!! That's right again!!!!

So ... who gets the money back from the tarrifs in the form of services and lower taxes? The citizens.   Who suffers a penalty and loses money and business?  China.

Who's the largest dolt on this board? Robodolt.

[robosmith]

On 12/29/2023 at 7:34 AM, Nationalist said:

Nikki Haley is a twit. A bought and paid for dunce. A Libbie.

She must be a dunce cause she tried to agree with you about the civil war being caused by states' rights and freedom.

Of course, everyone else, including her has now agreed it was about slavery as STATED IN SECESSION declarations.

So she was smart enough to back track and you're STILL a dunce.

Quote

"I think it always comes down to the role of government and what the rights of the people are. And I will always stand by the fact that I think government was intended to secure the rights and freedoms of the people. Government doesn’t need to tell you how to live your life, Haley continued. They need to make sure that you have freedom. We need to have capitalism. We need to have economic freedom. We need to make sure that we do all things so that individuals have the liberties so that they can have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to do or be anything they want to be without government getting in the way." — former South Carolina Gov. NIKKI HALEY responding to a voter at a New Hampshire town hall forum who asked Haley what caused the Civil War. https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2023/12/28/nikki-haleys-moment-of-crisis-00133265

VERSUS

"It doesn’t take a PhD to understand that slavery was the central cause of the civil war, but instead of telling it like it is, the entire MAGA field from Donald Trump on down are pandering to the most extreme fringe of their base. Minimize slavery, paraphrase HITLER, punish women and doctors — quite the record heading into the general election that will be the most diverse in history." -- A senior Biden adviser. 

 

Edited January 5 by robosmith

[Rebound]

On 1/1/2024 at 1:47 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

China started this.   If you don't fight back you will lose the war.  Just ask Jimmy Carter and Reagan.

Do you think the West doesn’t spy on China as well? 
 

I have been strongly opposed to Chinese outsourcing for decades.  In my career, I’ve steered our outsourcing to Mexico and Taiwan over China.  And when I was required to use Chinese outsourcing, I instituted very strict and robust security protocols.  I’ve refused to shop at Wal-Mart for decades, because I know they force American factories to shutter and outsource to China. Wal-Mart has been a massive massive cause of this.  
 

My point is that today, given the situation we put ourselves in, my opinion is that de-escalation is superior to escalation.  Talking about China using the language of war will only lead to war, with horrific consequences for our nation.  It is not the wise strategy. 
 

If we corner China and force them into a war, we will get a war. If we offer a way out which allows both nations to continue with our economic interdependence, we can grow our economies and live peacefully. 

Edited January 5 by Rebound

[CdnFox]

15 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Do you think the West doesn’t spy on China as well? 
 

Sure - i mean just look at all the stolen Chinese created technology secrets and intellectual property we use around here.  Like... er...  those little lanterns!   And wontons! 

[herbie]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:52 PM, CdnFox said:

I had to read that like 4 times .... 

admitting your lack of reading comprehension is Step 1.