What the Left fails to communicate about Jan 6

[impartialobserver]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Here's the problem.  THe public tends to operate on the 'balance of probability'.   Which means they don't go by cast iron proof, they go by what seems to be most likely.  And what is most likely to them is coloured very much by their perception of what the outcome SHOULD have been.

Polling says that after EVERY election for quite some time now the losing side believes there was foul play of some sort or that it was rigged.  Like - a lot.

And that's a very serious problem. IF the election laws and ballot control leave the door open to significant fraud (and this does) that might or might not go detected or undetected, you get this weird "Schrodinger's election' where the candidates could be said to have won or lost at the same time.

The us has a massive problem with this and something needs to be done to make sure that there is uniform rules in place that give people confidence that there's no fraud whether there has been or not i the past.

 

Good stuff.

With probability of less than 100%.. there is a chance that you are wrong and a chance that you are not.

In a lot of these court cases, they faced almost insurmountable odds. They can't be taken seriously without hard evidence. To get the ballots, machines, etc.. they need to prove that malicious intents did happen. But they can't prove that without the ballots, machines, etc. I have access to the voter registration database and even then can only tell you if someone is registered, the address, their affiliation and if a ballot was mailed to them. As to what they actually voted... that is behind locked doors. 

[CDN1]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:48 PM, Hodad said:

Seeing as how no BLM riot had the expressed intent or opportunity to subvert democracy and, through violence, install an unelected ruler, there isn't really much to compare. ?

No, they just threaten civil unrest if they don't get verdicts they want. They're a lynch mob.

[Rebound]

3 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

 

Good stuff.

With probability of less than 100%.. there is a chance that you are wrong and a chance that you are not.

In a lot of these court cases, they faced almost insurmountable odds. They can't be taken seriously without hard evidence. To get the ballots, machines, etc.. they need to prove that malicious intents did happen. But they can't prove that without the ballots, machines, etc. I have access to the voter registration database and even then can only tell you if someone is registered, the address, their affiliation and if a ballot was mailed to them. As to what they actually voted... that is behind locked doors. 

There are many different voting systems. But the Dominion voting system is actually very good. It prints a human-readable ballot. The voter gets to see who he voted for on a piece of paper that prints out. He then hands it to an election official and it is stored, so if there’s a recount, they have both the electronic and the paper ballots to go back to. 
 

The Trumpers create their own reality by fabricating stories of what could theoretically happen. That does not make their fantasies true.  
 

For instance, the Trumpers say that it is theoretically possible that an unemployed 18 year-old single girl without a passport somehow got a passport without leaving a record, bought a very expensive international plane ticket, flew to an undisclosed country, gave birth, then flew back to Hawaii, got a birth certificate faked, conned a doctor into falsely claiming he’d delivered her baby, got him to sign a birth certificate, got the newspaper to publish a false birth announcement…  all for no discernible reason. But it’s possible, so therefore, it must be true?

You can construct any sort of bizarre fantasy you want about Hugo Chavez and aliens from space faking ballots… that doesn’t make it true or provable in court. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Rebound

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

There are many different voting systems. But the Dominion voting system is actually very good. It prints a human-readable ballot. The voter gets to see who he voted for on a piece of paper that prints out. He then hands it to an election official and it is stored, so if there’s a recount, they have both the electronic and the paper ballots to go back to. 
 

The Trumpers create their own reality by fabricating stories of what could theoretically happen. That does not make their fantasies true.  
 

 

Some of what comes out from every election is going to be a little stupid.  The dominon machines were fine.  Russia had zero impact on the 2016 election and there was no collusion.  Lunatics on both sides were prepared to declare the other person invalid over it,

But - if everything else is above board and verifiable then the problems tend to be minor.  And both parties have a problem with that.

For example - ballot harvesting and illegal ballot voting is entirely 100 percent possible and may well have happened.  Instead of addressing that in the last election the left has tended towards "oh.. well....  naaaaah it couldn't possibly happen and you can't prove that it did so we think you're just trying to repress our voters!!!!"   Followed amusingly by "how do you know it was our voters who did it?" 

And that's a problem.  Sure - ohter elections it goes the other way but the left IS pretty bad for it - "oh the fbi did nothing wrong!!!"   They did much wrong and the left should be just as pissed.  "Oh russian collusion is guaranteed!"  It's all but completely been disproven entirely and it just didn't happen, nor did the russian efforts make any difference

Unless BOTH sides start looking at how they can 'close the loops' and adopt policy and procedure that basically eliminates all but the most nutbar of theories AND they both show eagerness to do it then this just gets worse and worse every election.

[Nationalist]

2 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

I will agree that this was not a true insurrection. I think Trump used vague enough language to cover his tracks. Some of his followers simply took it too far. He did not give explicit directive to anyone other than Pence. 

As for election fraud, I am someone that does not accept theories unless the evidence is absolute. I need to see the physical evidence with my own eyes. That being said... I find most examples of supposed election fraud to be little more than speculation. Georgia and Michigan, those situations were worthy of eye-brow raising. As for Nevada and Arizona.... the complete lack of evidence makes those claims bogus. The so-called experts in those two specific cases.. relied solely on probability. Do you judge the outcome of a game on the score or the probability of one team winning? I have access to the voter registration database in Nevada and while you can believe me or not.. voter fraud claims are bogus. There were less votes cast than ballots mailed out. 

Yet you ignore the recent acts of the accused. Meh...

As I said...it was expected.

 

[NAME REMOVED]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:16 AM, bcsapper said:

What are the odds that a chud will ever understand that crap is not a defence?

Why do you hurt the ones who love you?

Edited December 31, 2023 by DUI_Offender

[Nationalist]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:51 PM, Rebound said:

There are many different voting systems. But the Dominion voting system is actually very good. It prints a human-readable ballot. The voter gets to see who he voted for on a piece of paper that prints out. He then hands it to an election official and it is stored, so if there’s a recount, they have both the electronic and the paper ballots to go back to. 
 

The Trumpers create their own reality by fabricating stories of what could theoretically happen. That does not make their fantasies true.  
 

For instance, the Trumpers say that it is theoretically possible that an unemployed 18 year-old single girl without a passport somehow got a passport without leaving a record, bought a very expensive international plane ticket, flew to an undisclosed country, gave birth, then flew back to Hawaii, got a birth certificate faked, conned a doctor into falsely claiming he’d delivered her baby, got him to sign a birth certificate, got the newspaper to publish a false birth announcement…  all for no discernible reason. But it’s possible, so therefore, it must be true?

You can construct any sort of bizarre fantasy you want about Hugo Chavez and aliens from space faking ballots… that doesn’t make it true or provable in court. 

You're still hung up over the birth certificate thing? Son...you got issues.

And what's wrong with manual voting and counting? These machines don't save time and until recently, the machines were suspect by both parties. Why the about face when all they do is create controversy?

[Rebound]

7 hours ago, Nationalist said:

You're still hung up over the birth certificate thing? Son...you got issues.

And what's wrong with manual voting and counting? These machines don't save time and until recently, the machines were suspect by both parties. Why the about face when all they do is create controversy?

America has used voting machines for over seventy five years.  Given that, I don’t know what you mean by “manual.” They had paper ballots in Florida that turned out to be very confusing to use and subject to dimples and chads.  But in any case, Biden beat Trump by over 7 million votes and crushed him in the Electoral College and Trump is going to lose again. 

[Fluffypants]

13 minutes ago, Rebound said:

America has used voting machines for over seventy five years.  Given that, I don’t know what you mean by “manual.” They had paper ballots in Florida that turned out to be very confusing to use and subject to dimples and chads.  But in any case, Biden beat Trump by over 7 million votes and crushed him in the Electoral College and Trump is going to lose again. 

Hahahaha there is no Covid for Biden to hide behind. He can't campaign from his basement and he will have to debate Trump for real without being able to use a  teleprompter.

Biden may of beaten Trump by a lot last time but the election laws that helped him are now back to normal and he is losing minority and young voters by the day.

[Legato]

16 minutes ago, Fluffypants said:

Biden may of beaten Trump by a lot last time but the election laws that helped him are now back to normal and he is losing minority and young voters by the day.

Cue the next pandemic 4. 3. 2...

[Deluge]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:48 AM, Hodad said:

Seeing as how no BLM riot had the expressed intent or opportunity to subvert democracy and, through violence, install an unelected ruler, there isn't really much to compare. ?

There's no comparison, because there was no insurrection on January 6th. 

Sure, there were some meat headed protestors and some dirtbag federal employees trying to stir the protestors into a frenzy, but there was no insurrection. Just look at the video tapes. Do you see people storming the halls to set government officials on fire and then throw them out of the building? I don't either. In fact, it looked pretty f*cking peaceful inside. 

[Guest]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:55 PM, CdnFox said:

AOC said "Protests are SUPPOSED to make you uncomfortable. "

She literally has a room temperature IQ.

I see it like some BLM protests, that became riots where residents were terrorized by these groups. 

Dozens of videos showing protesters bullying home owners, talking about how the land and house was stolen and should be given back.

Terrorizing white people at restaurants, demanding for an endorsement of their cause, to somehow prove they aren't racist.

If this is the level of "discomfort" that is acceptable in a protest, then damn, this is a country that has beyond lost its way (on a level where a wall between it and Mexico is no longer needed as what separates both in policy is shrinking) and is circling its way with raw sewage, soon to fall down the drain.

So, if that is the standard, the "insurrection", was just a bunch of friendly and very outgoing white people hanging out at the Capitol o_O

[Nationalist]

The "insurrection" lie is dead. I don't think anyone has even been charged with it. Why?

Because there was no "insurrection".

[BeaverFever]

You know all the ISIS-inspired terrorist attacks across the western world weren’t coordinated either, it was just self-radicalized individuals and cells inspired by garbage posted on social media.
 

Similarly, many of the people who stormed the Capitol on Jan 6 legitimately believed internet nonsense asserting that if congress is unable to certify the election on the date of Jan 6 as specified in the constitution FOR ANY REASON then the election is nullified and the president will then need to be elected by the Republican-controlled congress. Some of those ideas were circulating on this very forum by the usual conservative crackpots in the weeks and months after Trump’s election loss leading up to January 6. 
 

So yes the Jan 6 attack was an attempt by at least some to nullify the 2020 election and install an alternative president. Similarly, Trump’s fake elector scheme and forged electoral certificates was also an attempt to sow confusion and prevent certification on Jan 6. 

Edited January 3, 2024 by BeaverFever

[Deluge]

28 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

You know all the ISIS-inspired terrorist attacks across the western world weren’t coordinated either, it was just self-radicalized individuals and cells inspired by garbage posted on social media.

I know, I got that same vibe from Antifa. Those f*ckers have the same kind of thirst for destruction that ISIS has. 

[Deluge]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:51 PM, Rebound said:

There are many different voting systems. But the Dominion voting system is actually very good.

Very good for democrats. 

Red ballots in, blue ballots out. 

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

You know all the ISIS-inspired terrorist attacks across the western world weren’t coordinated either, it was just self-radicalized individuals and cells inspired by garbage posted on social media.
 

Similarly, many of the people who stormed the Capitol on Jan 6 legitimately believed internet nonsense asserting that if congress is unable to certify the election on the date of Jan 6 as specified in the constitution FOR ANY REASON then the election is nullified and the president will then need to be elected by the Republican-controlled congress. Some of those ideas were circulating on this very forum by the usual conservative crackpots in the weeks and months after Trump’s election loss leading up to January 6. 
 

So yes the Jan 6 attack was an attempt by at least some to nullify the 2020 election and install an alternative president. Similarly, Trump’s fake elector scheme and forged electoral certificates was also an attempt to sow confusion and prevent certification on Jan 6. 

But that does miss a critical component -  I believe that they ALSO believed due to those same sources that the democrats had successfully interfered with the vote count and that in truth trump won the election.

If that is true then it wasn't an insurrection - by attempting to see trump made president they were actually the loyalists who were preventing the dems from stealing democracy.

If you put yourself in their headspace, the democrats were the insurrectionists or rather seditionists  i suppose.

[BeaverFever]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

But that does miss a critical component -  I believe that they ALSO believed due to those same sources that the democrats had successfully interfered with the vote count and that in truth trump won the election.

If that is true then it wasn't an insurrection - by attempting to see trump made president they were actually the loyalists who were preventing the dems from stealing democracy.

If you put yourself in their headspace, the democrats were the insurrectionists or rather seditionists  i suppose.

That’s exactly why we have rule of law, respect for official office holders, expertise  and due process, not rule by uninformed populist mobs who know nothing are easily fooled and have no clear organization or plan except to round up a bunch of good ol boys and f-ck sh-t up 

Furthermore you can make your claim aboanyone. If you put yourself in terrorists headspace where they genuinely believe they are the victims of aggression then they are the heroes 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

That’s exactly why we have rule of law, respect for official office holders, expertise  and due process, not rule by uninformed populist mobs who know nothing are easily fooled and have no clear organization or plan except to round up a bunch of good ol boys and f-ck sh-t up 

 

That is true - but that only has any validity while people believe in it.  THe rule of law does not exist on paper but in the minds and hearts of the people. If that stops you've got a problem.

And that has been badly eroded since 2016. The weaponizing of the FBI, the 24 hour "collusion, will be arrested tomorrow, not a legit president" routine, all the other little games - that all erodes confidence in those institutions and once that happens the rule of law no longer holds people back. 

And that's important - it's too bad it DID hold people back in 1938 for example - it would have been nice to see a few storming of gov't buildings at that point.  Citizens have to be willing to do that.

But that means it's CRITICAL that gov'ts and govt officials NEVER take action that calls that into doubt and DOES take action that protects that image in the mind of the people.

And of course now trump plays on that too and makes it even worse and both sides are at it full time. The dems break every rule of decency to subvert the law and trump uses every single excuse to erode it further and  mark my words - before long this will become unrecoverable and over the years to come the us will fail as the country we knew.

[BeaverFever]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

That is true - but that only has any validity while people believe in it.  THe rule of law does not exist on paper but in the minds and hearts of the people. If that stops you've got a problem.

And that has been badly eroded since 2016. The weaponizing of the FBI, the 24 hour "collusion, will be arrested tomorrow, not a legit president" routine, all the other little games - that all erodes confidence in those institutions and once that happens the rule of law no longer holds people back. 

And that's important - it's too bad it DID hold people back in 1938 for example - it would have been nice to see a few storming of gov't buildings at that point.  Citizens have to be willing to do that.

But that means it's CRITICAL that gov'ts and govt officials NEVER take action that calls that into doubt and DOES take action that protects that image in the mind of the people.

And of course now trump plays on that too and makes it even worse and both sides are at it full time. The dems break every rule of decency to subvert the law and trump uses every single excuse to erode it further and  mark my words - before long this will become unrecoverable and over the years to come the us will fail as the country we knew.

So what happened in 2016 is that Republicans decided “they can’t really force us to follow the laws and norms of society if we simply refuse to”.  

The Dems did not “break every rule of decency to subvert the law” that was all republicans. in fact Trump’s supporters openly admiredTrump’s willingness to violate norms and rules of decency, they said it is what made him so great and proves that he’s not an establishment phoney. 

The so-called “weaponizing of the FBI” and related conspiracy crap is just their flimsy excuse. The FBI likely cost Hillary the election with the nothing-burger email investigation which they very publicly announced was being re-opened right before election day.
 

Of course the Republicans need to lie and pretend to be the good guys and the victims. Every villain in history has claimed to be the good guy and the victim nobody says “hey let’s be evil”.
 

Of course if the logic is that any party is justified in attempting insurrections, coups, election fraud etc as long as they claim that the system is corrupt and untrustworthy then you don’t have a democracy at all because of course any party will claim that.

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

So what happened in 2016 is that Republicans decided “they can’t really force us to follow the laws and norms of society if we simply refuse to”.  

No, what happened is that the dems decided to break every rule to try to get at trump. The fbi was caught actually saying that's what they would do.  And then they were caught with a fake dossier that they reasonably should have known was fake.  And then it went on from there.

THe republicans just voted  in trump. Perfectly legal.

Quote

The Dems did not “break every rule of decency to subvert the law”

of course they did.  And denying that in the face of overwhelming evidence is why nobody really takes what you say seriously. You, the dems, and the flat earthers all have that in common

Quote

The so-called “weaponizing of the FBI” and related conspiracy crap is just their flimsy excuse. The FBI likely cost Hillary the election with the nothing-burger email investigation which they very publicly announced was being re-opened right before election day.

The fbi was forced to do that, and the proof of weaponizing the fbi is well documented and overwhelming. Again - flat earth.

You might argue that was a small group within the fbi or something but you cannot argue it wasn't the case.
 

Quote

Of course the Republicans need to lie and pretend to be the good guys and the victims. Every villain in history has claimed to be the good guy and the victim nobody says “hey let’s be evil”.

You realize you're claiming to be the good guy and the victim right? 

The evidence is clear and irrefutable. The dems created and paid for a fake dossier, they sent it to the fbi knowing it's origins and pressured them to investigate, which they did without following usual proceedures, and fbi agents were texting each other how they'll do anything to stop trump. The fbi broke the law AND proceedures several times in the subsequent 'investigation', and never turned up any evidence of wrongdoing but every day for 3 years every democrat and dem friendly news agency was going on about how he DEFINITELY colluded and any day now the charges will be coming.

Again - flat earth.  Nobody takes such blatant refusal to look at the facts seriously.
 

Quote

Of course if the logic is that any party is justified in attempting insurrections, coups, election fraud etc as long as they claim that the system is corrupt and untrustworthy then you don’t have a democracy at all because of course any party will claim that.

Sure-  or if they weaponize the courts to bring false charges and witch hunts, subvert the courts power to keep people off of ballots with no lawful excuse then pull it when it goes to the USSC, etc etc.

Sorry - the dems are the worst right now. The Republicans are moving to try to close the gap tho, and i'm sure the dems will respond with even more dirty tricks. And on it will go till there's nothing left of your democracy.

Sucks to be you.

[OftenWrong]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The evidence is clear and irrefutable. The dems created and paid for a fake dossier, they sent it to the fbi knowing it's origins and pressured them to investigate, which they did without following usual proceedures, and fbi agents were texting each other how they'll do anything to stop trump. The fbi broke the law AND proceedures several times in the subsequent 'investigation', and never turned up any evidence of wrongdoing but every day for 3 years every democrat and dem friendly news agency was going on about how he DEFINITELY colluded and any day now the charges will be coming.

Doesn't mean the Dems won't get hundreds of millions of votes for their president come election day. Same goes for the situation here in Canada with Trudeau. Despite all the blatantly exposed corruption, these people are deluded partisans who would compromise their integrity for their own political gain. But THAT will be their final undoing. They have lied themselves into a corner and there will be no way out.

These people are mentally unwell. Just look at the level of misery coming through in some of the posts around here. We need to help them. Euthenasia.

Final end-stage liberalism. They've disavowed calling themselves liberals in order to hide from the coming rout. But you can tell what they are, by the smell.

[Legato]

The Dems wake up in the morning grab the latest iPhone look at the date, Jan 06. It's the same date every day.

[Rebound]

1 hour ago, Legato said:

The Dems wake up in the morning grab the latest iPhone look at the date, Jan 06. It's the same date every day.

I wake up and read about how Donald Trump is getting closer and closer to a $250 million civil fine in NY State, a $100 million E Jean Carrol verdict, and four criminal trials, which can each put him in prison. 

[Nationalist]

6 minutes ago, Rebound said:

I wake up and read about how Donald Trump is getting closer and closer to a $250 million civil fine in NY State, a $100 million E Jean Carrol verdict, and four criminal trials, which can each put him in prison. 

After which you have to change your undies.

All that sperm...wasted on a pipe-dream.

Enjoy 2024. I'm pretty darn sure I will.