West is unravelling

[myata]

right before our eyes. Yes there's all that great talking, of unity, principles of never again. All sounds so heartwarming and great.. until you look out the window. If you want to look, and observe.

The great, heartwarming talking is great but what do you do if lifting the body, an arm even takes near-infinite considerations, discussion and analyses, doubts, comments, declarations and delays, and cancellations at the last moment? How do you call this condition, is there a word for it?

We can inspire, enchant and fool ourselves with the great words of infinite wisdom - but will the history be led away and fooled? Will it take much talking and a weak whimpering shaking for an act, decisive and bold, whet it's needed and all what is needed and more, to assure the claim for the future and the next age as our ancestors put in their time?

What do you think? Can it happen, did it anytime, anywhere? Let's discuss, the Time will wait, we had the insurance certificate for that, remember?

We will have a nice, warm holiday season, as comfy and plentiful as ever. Discussions and decisions that needed to be made the day before yesterday, or last year will have to wait, they can wait. Somewhere, far away Hitlers will advance. What? We're doing our little bit, it's got nothing to do with us. Like it didn't happen before never again, remember? Who still wants to remember? Who can?

Edited December 10, 2023 by myata

[August1991]

On 12/10/2023 at 3:53 AM, myata said:

...

What do you think?

...

At this moment, various people in America (and elsewhere) are communicating with Voyager I and II, two probes we sent years ago.

Whenever I watch American movies, even old ones - noirs, I look at the names, family names. 

[Michael Hardner]

What does the West need?

It needs to adapt to changes in the Zeitgeist.

What changed?

Consumerism arrived.

God left.

Social media arrived.

Humility and sacrifice left.

Busybody activism arrived.

Intellectualism left.

------

 

[myata]

It looks ironic to me: two years back Putin set off to defeat West, to degrade, diminish and eventually destroy it. It's not to Ukraine he was setting his ultimatums, to EU and NATO.

And look, now after all the great talking, lecturing and posturing. Did he know something, after all?

Does the new nuke Axis: Russia; Iran; North Korea know it?

We will see it very shortly. There's nothing left here that can be said but cannot be seen, in the reality.

[myata]

No one can be fooled by Putin's bravado: he's shut firmly into a corner and the survival of his brutal regime is tied to continuation of his brutal war. He counts and bets on only one outcome or gift: concessions from Ukraine and the world community.

 

Concessions about what though? The right to invade, rob and kill at will? For all tyrants and dictators, today and any point in the future? Putin has set out to create this future and install it. He is counting on your indecision and weakness. Understand that. It's about way more than Ukraine.

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, myata said:

No one can be fooled by Putin's bravado: he's shut firmly into a corner and the survival of his brutal regime is tied to continuation of his brutal war. He counts and bets on only one outcome or gift: concessions from Ukraine and the world community.

You mean no one should be fooled.  Lots of people, however, evidently are.  It's crazy to me how easily a...certain type of person is fooled by low effort, low-IQ propaganda.  

[Moonbox]

Just the other day one of our resident geniuses was gleefully cheering in the international politics section about how Turkey had decided to leave NATO .  This was based on a freaking Youtube video he saw and reposted here.  It never occurred to him to check elsewhere.  It was what he wanted to hear, so he believed it without a moment's consideration.  
 

That's what happens when the rubes get all of their news from Twitter, reddit and Youtube etc...  

[WestCanMan]

23 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Just the other day one of our resident geniuses was gleefully cheering in the international politics section about how Turkey had decided to leave NATO .  This was based on a freaking Youtube video he saw and reposted here.  It never occurred to him to check elsewhere.  It was what he wanted to hear, so he believed it without a moment's consideration.  
 

That's what happens when the rubes get all of their news from Twitter, reddit and Youtube etc...  

No, he said that Turkey actually left NATO, so he was wrong, once. 

Don't you wish you were just wrong once? That would mean that you were right 7,800 more times. 

Look at yourself, getting your 'news' from CNN and CBC and you're here making fun of other people ?

You're drinking from the toilet and making fun of what other people drink. 

[WestCanMan]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:53 AM, myata said:

right before our eyes. Yes there's all that great talking, of unity, principles of never again.

I'm not sure what the goal of the alt-left is, but it definitely isn't pro-democracy. 

Maybe they want one world gov't because they're so stupid that they think that would be fair to everyone.

Maybe they're bought and paid for with Chinese/Iranian money.

Maybe they're just simps who think that being a SJW is their only chance to get with women.

I dunno what it is, but leftists are definitely intent on destroying western society.  

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

No, he said that Turkey actually left NATO, so he was wrong, once. 

This is just the latest in a long list of self-inflicted humiliation for this clown, and what's especially funny is how quickly he believed it and tried to share it, when it was so easily and casually proved false.  A 10 second "Did Turkey leave NATO?" search could have saved him the embarrassment, and this is what makes him such a tool - how easily he duped by his youtube feed, over and over.  

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

Look at yourself, getting your 'news' from CNN and CBC and you're here making fun of other people ?

You don't know where I get my news from.  This is just your default response to anything that doesn't fit your worldview.  "reee MSM fake news reee!"

?

 

[Nationalist]

19 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

No, he said that Turkey actually left NATO, so he was wrong, once. 

Don't you wish you were just wrong once? That would mean that you were right 7,800 more times. 

Look at yourself, getting your 'news' from CNN and CBC and you're here making fun of other people ?

You're drinking from the toilet and making fun of what other people drink. 

Thanks but...as usual, @Moonbox is counting his chickens before they hatch.

[Nationalist]

17 hours ago, Moonbox said:

This is just the latest in a long list of self-inflicted humiliation for this clown, and what's especially funny is how quickly he believed it and tried to share it, when it was so easily and casually proved false.  A 10 second "Did Turkey leave NATO?" search could have saved him the embarrassment, and this is what makes him such a tool - how easily he duped by his youtube feed, over and over.  

You don't know where I get my news from.  This is just your default response to anything that doesn't fit your worldview.  "reee MSM fake news reee!"

?

 

Lol...oh you poor, sopping wet fool. You've been wrong about so much that it's all just an endless exhibition of stupid.

You now know...if you have even the slightest bit of reason left...that the end of the Ukraine war will involve the third of the land Russia has taken, will stay with Russia. I have to imagine that burns you...and it should. You've tried desperately to warp reality and it's all unraveled on you.

Poor fool. You've placed your faith in people who'd just as soon watch you die.

[Moonbox]

Poor little brainlet is lashing out because he embarrassed himself  reposting his youtube feed...again. ?

Edited December 16, 2023 by Moonbox

[myata]

The liberal elites of the West, blinded to anything by their pompous belief that the future is guaranteed and assured, again led, step by, and exactly in every false step of the past to the worst outcome possible. And even when the stark reality was looking them straight in the eyes, they still hesitated and dithered unable to come up with resolve and will to put up the necessary response: what is necessary is not the same, maybe even close to: what I can and want. The gap, one can call it "evolutionary" or even: "existential".

Then, the common folks got tired and disappointed. Next, what? What great options are there? Sure, the next generation that is supposed to lead them, simply and plain bent on weakening it further, they aren't even trying to hide it. Orban, Trump, Poilievre the great leaders on guard of freedoms and democracy, remember? Not our business. The future is guaranteed and assured, just sign here and here.

Ohoh. The climate change too. What's next, then? The evolution wrote no blank checks, remember?

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, myata said:

The liberal elites of the West, blinded to anything by their pompous belief that the future is guaranteed and assured, again led, step by, and exactly in every false step of the past to the worst outcome possible. And even when the stark reality was looking them straight in the eyes, they still hesitated and dithered unable to come up with resolve and will to put up the necessary response: what is necessary is not the same, maybe even close to: what I can and want. The gap, one can call it "evolutionary" or even: "existential".

Then, the common folks got tired and disappointed. Next, what? What great options are there? Sure, the next generation that is supposed to lead them, simply and plain bent on weakening it further, they aren't even trying to hide it. Orban, Trump, Poilievre the great leaders on guard of freedoms and democracy, remember? Not our business. The future is guaranteed and assured, just sign here and here.

Ohoh. The climate change too. What's next, then? The evolution wrote no blank checks, remember?

It's hard to follow this, as it's laden with woe.  A true lament.

I will nitpick something from the first part: the worst outcome possible? Really? At least indulge me by agreeing that this statement is highly debatable.

And, historically, we have had roughly two binary opposition options in governance: by the people or autocratic. Are you lamenting that we've been using the former? Or maybe that our public sphere hasn't been thoughtful enough?  Or that we were misled? Where is the fault?

[myata]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Really? At least indulge me by agreeing that this statement is highly debatable.

Yes, really. Putin these days is posing an existential threat to Western democracies. His success in any form is not compatible with anything they preached and claimed to stand for. Western democracies, in their present form and Putin cannot both advance to the future. Only one could, and will.

His regime's trajectory was pretty clear from the turn of the century. This is two decades of deliberate blindness and blunt inaction. Longer than Hitler's rise in the 1930s. Bells of all kinds were ringing all kind of warnings, to no effect. All of this is a fact by the way.

West wanted to believe, stubbornly and insistingly that it has a ticket to the future no matter what happens in the reality around it. It was wrong, obviously. No one can have it. It does not exist in the evolution. The moment you've gone too self-indulgent and weak to face the challenges it presents, you are handed another one though: to extinction.

[Michael Hardner]

12 minutes ago, myata said:

1. Yes, really. Putin these days is posing an existential threat to Western democracies. His success in any form is not compatible with anything they preached and claimed to stand for.

2. Western democracies, in their present form and Putin cannot both advance to the future. Only one could, and will.

3. His regime's trajectory was pretty clear from the turn of the century. This is two decades of deliberate blindness and blunt inaction. Longer than Hitler's rise in the 1930s. Bells of all kinds were ringing all kind of warnings, to no effect. All of this is a fact by the way.

4. West wanted to believe, stubbornly and insistingly that it has a ticket to the future no matter what happens in the reality around it. It was wrong, obviously. No one can have it. It does not exist in the evolution. The moment you've gone too self-indulgent and weak to face the challenges it presents, you are handed another one though: to extinction.

1. How is the rise of Putin - which is a current event arguably the predictable result of the victory of 'the west' for shorthand - the 'worst possible outcome' in a historical sense ?  Maybe I just need context setting here.

2. Or neither will.  Which of Roosevelt, Stalin, and Hitler persevered intact ?  One can argue that none did: a synthesis survived, even with elements of Germany's failed experiment.

3. OK but when do you start the clock on neoliberalism ?  How about the end of WW2 ?

4. This assessment is more down to earth, IMO, and I can get behind the idea that the model since 2000 lacks vision.  Maybe that's the common area we can agree on.  

[myata]

On 12/18/2023 at 9:50 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. How is the rise of Putin - which is a current event arguably the predictable result of the victory of 'the west' for shorthand - the 'worst possible outcome' in a historical sense ?  Maybe I just need context setting here.

Only in deliberate blindness, self-indulgence and a paralysis of thought and will. The rise of aggressive totalitarianism is way more than just Putin: it will define the next phase of our civilization. Do you fail to notice the new Axis of dictators forming: Russia, Iran, Syria, North Korea with China possibly in the vague background? It's a fact already, they support each other, help to stand together. What if they stand and grow? Which way would the future go to? Can the two, a coalition of brutal aggressive tyrants and democracy survive in it in a harmony? The answer is obvious: every weakness and indecision by the West shown to the world today is a step toward its isolation, and demise some way on. We cannot count on the future being granted and laid out for us. We have to earn it. Our ancestors knew but the forgot.

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, myata said:

Only in deliberate blindness, self-indulgence and a paralysis of thought and will. The rise of aggressive totalitarianism is way more than just Putin: it will define the next phase of our civilization. Do you fail to notice the new Axis of dictators forming: Russia, Iran, Syria, North Korea with China possibly in the vague background? It's a fact already, they support each other, help to stand together. What if they stand and grow? Which way would the future go to? Can the two, a coalition of brutal aggressive tyrants and democracy survive in it in a harmony? The answer is obvious: every weakness and indecision by the West shown to the world today is a step toward its isolation, and demise some way on. We cannot count on the future being granted and laid out for us. We have to earn it. Our ancestors knew but the forgot.

I'm going to take you back to the sentence that prompted me to comment:

"The liberal elites of the West, blinded to anything by their pompous belief that the future is guaranteed and assured, again led, step by, and exactly in every false step of the past to the worst outcome possible."

 In your mind, when did the false stepping? Begin? With the formation of NATO and the EEC?

If you were talking about post 1990 then I can understand the statement a bit better before I comment further.

[myata]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

about post 1990 then I can understand the statement a bit better before I comment further.

Yes. First you remember the accident, think and try hard to avoid it. Then, you may come to think that you've done enough and can relax a bit. Then, you've grown lazy, complacent and have assured yourself that nothing can happen no matter what you do, don't or wouldn't. You begin to ignore visible signs, and warning bells that ring ever louder. And then, it happens again. And all over, again and again like it never happened before. There has to be fun in it, no?

[Michael Hardner]

41 minutes ago, myata said:

Yes. First you remember the accident, think and try hard to avoid it. Then, you may come to think that you've done enough and can relax a bit. Then, you've grown lazy, complacent and have assured yourself that nothing can happen no matter what you do, don't or wouldn't. You begin to ignore visible signs, and warning bells that ring ever louder. And then, it happens again. And all over, again and again like it never happened before. There has to be fun in it, no?

The metaphor is murky.  But ok.  The 'west' as we know it was designed in response to Stalin above all.  So it succeeded.  There was no post-1990 consideration of how to change the model for the west.

[myata]

34 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

There was no post-1990 consideration of how to change the model for the west.

There's more to it too. It did not and maybe cannot? this is not a given now we will have to see it; respond effectively to Stalins of today. So what was the point of the exercise then, from the perspective of the evolution?

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, myata said:

There's more to it too. It did not and maybe cannot? this is not a given now we will have to see it; respond effectively to Stalins of today. So what was the point of the exercise then, from the perspective of the evolution?

The point of the exercise was to defeat enemy #1.  As GWB would say: Mission Accomplished.

Now, we have ostensibly ONE superpower with many allies but little political will and economic motivation to create a NATO that includes 1/2 the world.  

Maybe the answer is to wait for the marginal dictatorships to fall, having faith that liberalism has proven itself ?

You tell me.  There are smart people on this but there's more than brains needed as this is very situational and needs to be politically supported in a time where unity is scarce.

[myata]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Maybe the answer is to wait for the marginal dictatorships to fall, having faith that liberalism has proven itself ?

Wait till they fall by themselves? And what if they won't and you've grown tired and weakened of waiting? And the folks around, seeing your weakness and inability to stand up, would begin to make arrangements to have at least some security? Who told you that the Time has to be on your side and will obey your plans and desires? Did it promise anything like that or you're just being blind and foolish?

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

There are smart people on this but there's more than brains needed as this is very situational

One doesn't need to be super smart to know that past achievements guarantee nothing in the future. That every contest is a new one to win, or lose. That pompous words won't count for much in a contest of wills and powers. What you have, you bring to the contest and show it. The only answer will be, is it sufficient or not enough. The Time will not be fooled by any words.

[-TSS-]

I wonder is there any other example in the world of a former host country and a colony whereby the roles have been so reversed as to who gives the orders and who obeys as is the case with the USA and the UK.