Is Canada going communist?

TreeBeard · November 21, 2023

56 minutes ago, blackbird said:

We already have government-controlled healthcare, which by the way, is not keeping up with the demands for health care. The NDP is pushing hard for more Socialist programs such as Pharmacare and some want a guaranteed annual income.

Do you have enough money socked away to pay for your own healthcare if you get sick?

BeaverFever · November 21, 2023

On 11/18/2023 at 11:09 AM, blackbird said:

You just confirmed what I have been saying. Canada is a Socialist Welfare state. There is no doubt about it. The liberal left believe in Big Brother control of everything and there is no limit to the amount of taxation they can enforce.

You yourself have already proven you are a strong supporter and advocate of a Big Brother welfare state. That is what you got. Most people don't understand what they are doing in supporting these kind of people.

The fact is with the ideology that most people follow and our government embraces we are moving steadily to Orwell's 1984 Big Brother type of government. The reason is because most people, like yourself, believe they are like a child and government is their father. They believe like you do that government must provide everything no matter how it is achieved. That means ever-increasing taxation and ever-increasing services provided by Big Brother.

In the process, most people don't know or don't care that they are losing their freedoms. That doesn't matter to most people because they only look at how many and how good the services are that Big Brother provides. That is all that matters in the welfare state that we live in. You are getting what you want. Whether it will last or not I don't know. The whole thing could collapse. The foundation of the welfare state may be built on sand. The system is already heavily stressed. There are millions of people that can't afford to buy a home and many have to go to food banks to survive and pay the rent. This is stressing the system tremendously.

Yet the left still demands more government services such as universal pharmacare that would cost billions more. Yet for millions of other people, they receive all the pharmacare they need through their private health insurance, their government employee health plan or heavily subsidized pharmacare system that provinces pay. What will happen to all that if the government brings in universal pharmacare at massive expense? Perhaps it will upset the apple cart and the whole system will be in a crisis. It could take massive tax increases to pay for it forcing millions more people to food banks and increasing the housing crisis. Then there is the guaranteed basic income that would cost tens or hundreds of billions. There is no end to the demands of Big Brother.

The Socialist Welfare state has a huge problem. They want to provide everything for everyone no matter what it costs. The taxpayers are forced to try to pay for it all. But the money is just not enough for all the demands. At some point the system will begin to crack and there could be crisis after crisis as the different welfare programs begin to collapse.

You think having your garbage picked up, your roads paved and plowed, public sanitation, police fire and ambulance services, public education and hospitals makes us a Socialist Welfare State?

blackbird · November 21, 2023

24 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The NDP is socialist, not communist. I don't think you have a grasp on what communism is in theory or in practice.

What you don't seem to understand is Socialism is a big step toward Communism. But the word Communism can be used in a general sense. A country can be partly communist. You seem to think everything is black or white. There is a vast range of in between that could be happening and likely is.

The NDP leader Jagmeet Singh praised the Cuban Communist revolution by saying it was good for the people. Yet he is the leader of the NDP. Yet you would claim he is in no way a Communist. So what do you say about his support of Fidel Castro and the Communist revolution in Cuba? He also constantly rants about the "greedy corporations" and their executives. If that doesn't sound like Communism, I don't know what does.

24 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The NDP is CCF and basically the political wing of the Protestant church. Premier Douglas, Stanley Knowles, Ben Smiley, Peter Prebble etc. were all United Church ministers and prominent members of the NDP.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

These were not faithful or true Bible believers. Believing in Socialism is totally contrary to the Bible. It is heresy. Preaching wealth re-distribution is not Biblical. It is stealing. This is a major problem with some so-called Protestants and denominations like the United Church, which is not really a church in the true sense. It is more of a Socialist political organization masquerading under the banner of a church. Same with Tommie Douglas. He was a social gospel minister who became a leftist politician. I hope you don't think Socialism is the gospel or anything Biblical.

Edited November 21, 2023 by blackbird

blackbird · November 21, 2023

14 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

You think having your garbage picked up, your roads paved and plowed, public sanitation, police fire and ambulance services, public education and hospitals makes us a Socialist Welfare State?

It all depends on the degree of government intervention, taxation, and control of the economy and society. The key here is degree and what exactly the government is doing. Nobody questions having basic services like police, fire, ambulance, and road. But how far the government goes in Canada is a totally different story. You should be able to understand that. That is basic grade one stuff.

TreeBeard · November 21, 2023

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

But how far the government goes in Canada is a totally different story.

So you want taxes to pay for garbage pickup, but not healthcare?

Queenmandy85 · November 21, 2023

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Socreds? Which election are you talking about old man? You're about 30 years too late to be voting for socreds in Canada

The CPC is Social Credit. It was Preson Manning, son of Earnest, who changed the name from Social Credit to "Reform." Then they changed the name to CPC when the Conservative Party was stabbed in the back by MacKay. In Jeffrey Simpsons book, Faultlines, Preston Manning revealed his inspiration was President Lincoln, an American Republican. Conservatives draw inspiration from Sir John A. MacDonald, the antithsis of republicanism.

I live in hope that Mr. Poilievre will promote conservative values that respect Canada's traditions and heritage.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Queenmandy85

CdnFox · November 21, 2023

Just now, Queenmandy85 said:

The CPC is Social Credit.

The cpc is not social credit, and you make yourself look like an uneducated 1diot saying things like that.

Quote

It was Preson Manning, son of Earnest, who changed the name from Social Credit to "Reform."

The cpc is not the reform party either. ANd reform wasn't social credit

Quote

I live in hope that Mr. Poilievre will promote conservative values that respect Canada's traditions and heritage.

I live in the hope you'll stop being an 1diot about political history and read a book or something. There is no social credit, and pretending that a current political party is the same as a regional political party that hasn't existed in 30 years is a sign of early onset dementia or the like.

As to PP - his job is to get the country out of the quagmire it's in and back on track. And that's what he'll be attempting to do. As to "canadian values"? what are those? If trudeau is an example it's corruption, division and hatred. I'd rather he cam up with some new values - i doubt you'll like all of them but you should find a few you do

Queenmandy85 · November 21, 2023

38 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The NDP leader Jagmeet Singh praised the Cuban Communist revolution by saying it was good for the people. Yet he is the leader of the NDP. Yet you would claim he is in no way a Communist. So what do you say about his support of Fidel Castro and the Communist revolution in Cuba?

It was a Conservative government that maintained trade relations with Castro's Cuba. Have you never heard of John Diefenbaker? You can't say he was a communist. Singh is a socialist. Historically, socialists and communists hate each other.

Queenmandy85 · November 21, 2023

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

As to "canadian values"?

You mis-read my post. I said "Conservative values."

taxme · November 21, 2023

14 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

When you look beneath the cosmetic rhetoric, I don't think there will be that much difference between the Liberals and the CPC. On the positive side, we are promised nuclear power. On the negative, the CPC talk about stream lining government services such as passports. That costs money. Then there is housing. That costs money. Then there is high interest rates. (They aren't that high. When I was a lender for a major Canadian bank in the late 1970's, rates were a lot higher.) And then there is high inflation. Well, as Mr. Poilievre knows, the way to reduce inflation is to raise interest rates. With all the commitments he is making, if he cuts taxes, he will drive up the deficit, because his plans will cost taxpayers more money.

An example is veterans affairs. Veterans have been short changed on their pensions and benefits since 1918. There have been about nine governments since then, Liberal, Conservative and CPC (Social Credit). None of them have been able to fix the problem in Veterans affairs. Why? It is too expensive. On the one side, you have the vets. On the other side, there are the tax payers. Each side is pulling the government in different directions.

It is the same for everything the government faces. Defence, Healthcare, Education, Environment, Transportation. We all want government services, but we don't want to pay for it...or as one person put it, "We all want to go to Heaven but nobody wants to die to get there.

Pierre Poilievre has to know he has raised unachievable expectations, leaving his supporters to face disappointment.

When I look at what the Government of Canada has to deal with, I would like to ask Mr. Poilievre, "Are you sure you really want to be Prime Minister?" I wish him luck. He is going to need it.

The massive blowing of tax dollars that this government spends will only add to more inflation. If this government would stop blowing tax dollars on their useless communist like programs and agendas, inflation would be a lot lower.

If Poilievre is a real and true conservative, and applies conservative principles and politics, then the debt and inflation will go down. The debt and inflation will not go down as long as this dictator in Ottawa keeps blowing tax dollars like there is no tomorrow. There will be no more Canada if we keep blowing tax dollars. Or maybe that is the plan? Bankrupt Canada for some nefarious globalist reason? Hey, we never know, eh? ?

CdnFox · November 21, 2023

6 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

You mis-read my post. I said "Conservative values."

Ahhh - so i did. Apologies.

Queenmandy85 · November 21, 2023

6 minutes ago, taxme said:

The massive blowing of tax dollars that this government spends will only add to more inflation.

You mean like fighting the Covid pandemic where the government's actions saved thousands of lives by making it possible for people to sat home to slow the spread. Yes, it will take decades to pay for that, but are not the lives saved worth it? Look at our neighbours who did not share our strategy and as a result, they suffered the worst catastrophe in terms of lives lost in American history. 1.1 million and climbing.

5 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Ahhh - so i did. Apologies.

No harm. I think I've had too much coffee. I need to maybe go read a book. ?

Nationalist · November 21, 2023

19 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

It was a Conservative government that maintained trade relations with Castro's Cuba. Have you never heard of John Diefenbaker? You can't say he was a communist. Singh is a socialist. Historically, socialists and communists hate each other.

Wait what?

Quote

Historically, socialists and communists hate each other.

What the Hell are you babbling about?

CdnFox · November 21, 2023

2 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

You mean like fighting the Covid pandemic where the government's actions saved thousands of lives by making it possible for people to sat home to slow the spread. Yes, it will take decades to pay for that, but are not the lives saved worth it? Look at our neighbours who did not share our strategy and as a result, they suffered the worst catastrophe in terms of lives lost in American history. 1.1 million and climbing.

Dude - that is so much bullshit i'm tempted to send you a cow.

The scotia bank just released a report and it's one of many now - the covid spending played a small role - and went on far too long and was too high either way. He over spent by a 100 billion dollars BEFORE covid - he over spent DURING covid and most of that money was NOT on covid relief, and he has CONTINUED to grossly over spend since covid.

So - necessary covid spending was NOT the problem. Spending too much for too long (did all those businesses REALLY need those big handouts for that long? He spent more than he did on cerb_) was an issue but that's not even the biggest ones.

And his overspending is the primary driver behind the inflation/interest rate issues we face,

https://financialpost.com/news/government-spending-pushed-up-interest-rates-scotiabank

CdnFox · November 21, 2023

22 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

It was a Conservative government that maintained trade relations with Castro's Cuba. Have you never heard of John Diefenbaker? You can't say he was a communist. Singh is a socialist. Historically, socialists and communists hate each other.

Maintaining an existing trade relationship is not the same as proclaiming the revolution was good for the people, and lets not pretend it is,

Queenmandy85 · November 21, 2023

24 minutes ago, taxme said:

If Poilievre is a real and true conservative, and applies conservative principles and politics, then the debt and inflation will go down.

I hope you are right. Inflation is coming down, but historically it has bee liberal finance ministers like LaLonde and Martin who brought the debt down and Conservatives who run large deficits. (Mulroney) Joe Clark tried to get rid of Trudeau / Turner's deficit and was defeated for his efforts.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Queenmandy85
Deleted in response to CdnFox's correction

Queenmandy85 · November 21, 2023

Voters like it when governments spend other peoples money on them. They don't care about corruption or ethics. Just give'm the money. Taxme, if Trudeau was a dictator, rather than give workers CERB to stay home, he would have welded their apartment doors shut. We had a disturbance in Ottawa a couple of years ago. When the police finally removed the people after four weeks, nobody got killed, and not many were arrested. In a dictatorship, the downtown area would have been sealed off by tanks and snipers within a couple of days and they would have opened fire. The survivors would have disappeared except for the leaders who would have had a quick show trial and then executed. That is how a communist dictatorship works. When Castro took office, the news every day was of how many people were executed by firing squad that day.

Let us be so grateful that we only have petty little irritations with our government.

Now, I really need to stop before I embarass myself any further. Have a great rest of your day, one and all.?

taxme · November 21, 2023

51 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

You mean like fighting the Covid pandemic where the government's actions saved thousands of lives by making it possible for people to sat home to slow the spread. Yes, it will take decades to pay for that, but are not the lives saved worth it? Look at our neighbours who did not share our strategy and as a result, they suffered the worst catastrophe in terms of lives lost in American history. 1.1 million and climbing.

No harm. I think I've had too much coffee. I need to maybe go read a book. ?

I never did believe the story of covid. In the beginning of covid, I was very skeptical of it all. As i found out many moons later, the covid pandemic was just one big lie and hoax. A real and true plandemic from the very start. Maybe some people died from some other flu like symptoms, but all flu's were all lumped into covid, but the numbers can never be really determined.

There were many people that were killed from other accidental injuries, and when tested for covid, the story went that they died from covid and not from an accident or some other illness. Covid was all bullshit from the very beginning. Only the non woke will believe the covid lie and hoax with all of the new information out there about thios being one big scamdemic. Event 201 says it all that covid was a planned plandemic event from the very start. ?

BeaverFever · November 21, 2023

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

There is no definition of socialism in your next paragraph. Not ANY definition - never mind one I supposedly made up.

So you couldn't even articulate one. Well well well.

Soo... . just lying to distract again i see. Well - there you go

Sigh ……as I said YOUR claims about “socialism” are made up, including as an example your completely fabricated and false claim that “the left” admired or supported Hitler or that anyone in Hitler’s time considered Nazis to be on the left. The Nazis were considered far right then and they are considered far right now. So whatever secret definition of socialism you’re using is obviously wrong. Get it?

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

A few.

A few thousand maybe. I guess you never learned about the “Business Coup plot” aka “Wall Street Putsch” of 1934. It’s not a surprise that you don’t find much reference to it in conservative circles. Luckily for you the History Channel’s documentary on it can be found on YouTube amd now that you know about it you can find out more about it in any number of credible sources it’s not some new revelation or recently revealed secret, its been a matter of public record since it happened in the ‘30s as you can tell by the apparent age of this documentary however it’s just something conservatives don’t like to talk about it

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Absolutely true - and it's in the next paragraph of yours i quoted along with this alleged definiton of socialism i faked. How about you actually provide cites other people asked for before asking for your own?

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Your “evidence” for your false claims is just more false claims with no evidence of their own. Meanwhile my next paragraph does have cites as I usually do provide them while you continue to provide ZERO in this thread. Once again you would be a much more effective online debater if you first read someone’s post all the way through before attempting line-by-line rebuttals.

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Sorry but absolutely true - AND it's made a resurgence and is hugely popular in europe among the left today again. The left love the idea - much easier to sell than "Socialism" brand socialism and it works slightly better as well.

False you can’t just call whatever you feel like criticizing on any given day “socialism” and expect to be taken seriously.

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

was paying attention just fine. Here's what i said:

Vairous groups took sides mostly for political reasons and very much to test their latest military hardware.

Which is true. the volunteers you mentioned joined for political reasons. The us gov't gave fighter planes and other weapons to test them out. Germany was TOTALLY in it to test out their new aircraft. It doesn't say anything about hitler being one way or another, Nothing you posted actually disputes any of that.

And this is a trick we see you pull - when you can't argue with what's been said, you pick something else that nobody said and argue viciously against that

I repeat - cool story, but nothing to do with hitler's motives.

No you weren’t paying attention and you still aren’t. Furthermore it’s clear you know nothing about the Spanish Civil War. This is that trick we see you pull where you baselessly make stuff up out of thin air ……again.

Hitler, Mussolini and Franco were far-right fascists who wanted to spread fascism across Europe and eradicate “socialism” . The trickle of foreign fighters who came to their side were all from known far-right groups. The much larger group of fighters supporting the democratic government were from left wing groups. Rather than support the democratic Spanish government, the capitalist western countries declared themselves neutral and imposed an arms embargo on Spain. It’s really cut and dried here.

The US government also had an embargo on Spain and did NOT give or sell any planes or other weapons to the legitimate democratic government of Spain despite FDR and left leaning politicians being sympathetic to them. However in these pre-war years USA continued to sell military equipment and weapons to Hitler’s Germany and to Mussolini and allowed pro-fascist US companies like Ford and Texaco among others to supply various vehicles and supplies to the fascist side.

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well it depend how you define 'socialist' and 'the left' doesn't it.

Sure, and a piece of cardboard is healthy food depending on how you define healthy food. After all, they both contain fibre and many people complain that healthy food “tastes like cardboard”. What other evidence is needed??

Honestly a lot of people misuse the word socialism including people on the left like AOC. Most American democrats who are labeled “socialist” down there like Obama and both Clintons would have to run on a Conservative Party ticket if they wanted to be elected in Canada on the platform ls they presented It’s ironic most conservatives in Canada get outraged if you accuse them of not supporting Canadian public healthcare. Yet they ally themselves with Republicans who think even the idea of that is extreme communism.

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You just defined market or 'democratic' socialists People who believe in a market but that it should be heavily regulated to benefit the 'publics' goals. Litearally word for word straight from hilter's mouth

Lol nope! Literally NOT word for word out of Hitler’s mouth! There you go with another of your made -up claims again! If not please provide the quote from Hitler LOL I won’t hold my breath

I said well regulated. You yourself once said on this forum that conservatives don’t believe in anarchy and support proper market regulation. What is the definition of “heavily regulated” anyway? What you think is just the right amount of regulation someone else will claim is too much and label you a “market socialist?”

Socialism including “market socialism” means that the means of production (aka business) is primarily owned by the state. One example of market socialism would be all these Chinese companies who look and operate just like capitalist companies and sell their products in our stores except that their largest shareholder is the Chinese government.

Capitalism is any system where the means of production and its profits are PRIMARILY privately owned and generally operate according to market principles such as supply and demand and competition among others. Capitalism doesn’t prohibit regulation of markets or social programs or taxes or the like. Nor is it a strict recipe that everyone around the world must follow exactly the same way or else they’re guilty of being “communist” “Marxist” “socialist” or whatever other insult conservatives feel like using.

Queenmandy85 · November 21, 2023

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Dude - that is so much bullshit i'm tempted to send you a cow.

The scotia bank just released a report and it's one of many now - the covid spending played a small role - and went on far too long and was too high either way. He over spent by a 100 billion dollars BEFORE covid - he over spent DURING covid and most of that money was NOT on covid relief, and he has CONTINUED to grossly over spend since covid.

So - necessary covid spending was NOT the problem. Spending too much for too long (did all those businesses REALLY need those big handouts for that long? He spent more than he did on cerb_) was an issue but that's not even the biggest ones.

And his overspending is the primary driver behind the inflation/interest rate issues we face,

https://financialpost.com/news/government-spending-pushed-up-interest-rates-scotiabank

I was mis-informed. Who am I to argue with the Bank of Nova Scotia. Sorry it took me so long to apologize.

blackbird · November 21, 2023

2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

It was a Conservative government that maintained trade relations with Castro's Cuba. Have you never heard of John Diefenbaker? You can't say he was a communist.

Of course not. I met Diefenbaker personally and have his personally autographed book, One Canada.

I don't know why he would be dealing with Cuba. Of course he was no Communist of any kind,

I'm not sure about Singh. He expressed approval of the Communist revolution in Cuba. So people that elected him must be very strange.

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Let us be so grateful that we only have petty little irritations with our government.

I think it is far more serious than that. All the disastrous things that Trudeau has done are not little irritations. Ask the millions of people that can't buy a home or afford groceries.

The affordability crisis for many Canadians is not a "little irritation".

Edited November 21, 2023 by blackbird

blackbird · November 21, 2023

2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

historically it has bee liberal finance ministers like LaLonde and Martin who brought the debt down and Conservatives who run large deficits.

The present debt of the Canadian government is one trillions dollars. It is forecast to rise to 1.4 trillion dollars over the next seven years. Don't forget Canadians must pay interest on this debt. .

Interest payments on national debt among largest line items in budget | Toronto Sun

The higher the debt, the more money Canadians must pay in interest. The debt costs for 2023-24 will be $46.5 billions dollars. This will be rising to over $60 billion dollars by 2028.

Interest on debt provides nothing for Canadians but actually increases the cost of living for everyone. This is the tragedy.

Liberals don't care. Their extravagant spending is pushing up the interest that Canadians must pay. This increases the cost of living for everything. Liberals are planning to quadruple the carbon tax.

blackbird · November 21, 2023

3 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

So you want taxes to pay for garbage pickup, but not healthcare?

The problem is people like you expect government to provide everything imaginable, including free diapers and free hard drugs for everyone.

BeaverFever · November 21, 2023

4 hours ago, blackbird said:

It all depends on the degree of government intervention, taxation, and control of the economy and society. The key here is degree and what exactly the government is doing. Nobody questions having basic services like police, fire, ambulance, and road. But how far the government goes in Canada is a totally different story. You should be able to understand that. That is basic grade one stuff.

Then maybe you need to fo hack to grade 1 because I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. There’s no magic line where you cross over from freedom loving capitalist democracy to communist dictatorship just because you have a new public service or a new tax or a new regulation.

Socialism refers to any number of economic models where industry and amassed wealth are *mostly* or even entirely owned by the state.

Capitalism refers to any number of economic models where these are *mostly* privately owned and where the economy *mostly* operates according to market principles.

Democracy is a system of selecting leaders and is not necessarily capitalist although in practice this tends to be the case with some notable exceptions There have been notable capitalist dictatorships such as Augusto Pinochet’s Chile

Communism is a hypothetical future stateless utopia theorized by Karl Marx that has never existed and probably never will exist. What we call “Communist” countries is actually an oxymoron, as communism requires that there actually not be a country. These are actually authoritarian socialist countries that (claim to) aspire to someday achieve the future communist utopia

blackbird · November 22, 2023

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Then maybe you need to fo hack to grade 1 because I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. There’s no magic line where you cross over from freedom loving capitalist democracy to communist dictatorship just because you have a new public service or a new tax or a new regulation.

Socialism refers to any number of economic models where industry and amassed wealth are *mostly* or even entirely owned by the state.

Capitalism refers to any number of economic models where these are *mostly* privately owned and where the economy *mostly* operates according to market principles.

Democracy is a system of selecting leaders and is not necessarily capitalist although in practice this tends to be the case with some notable exceptions There have been notable capitalist dictatorships such as Augusto Pinochet’s Chile

Communism is a hypothetical future stateless utopia theorized by Karl Marx that has never existed and probably never will exist. What we call “Communist” countries is actually an oxymoron, as communism requires that there actually not be a country. These are actually authoritarian socialist countries that (claim to) aspire to someday achieve the future communist utopia

Canada is a kind of mixture or hybrid of Capitalism and Welfarism. Some people refer to a welfare state as Socialist. To a degree that is true of Canada. Government employs over 300,000 employees in the federal government to provide services of various kinds. That is government control and therefore a form of Socialism. There are many different social services that are controlled by government. That means Canada is not a pure Capitalist system, but is partially Socialist. But because it provides money and services for many things and spends hundreds of billions on them, it is also a welfare state. Since it has endless regulations and red tape for countless things, it is also an authoritarian state.