22 dead, dozens wounded (and counting) in USA’s latest 2nd Amendment celebration

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

 

Cite. And even if that's the case these "rare" incidents are uniquely a US problem. Deaths like this are completely preventable by regulated these types of weapons. 

 

It is true and you can look it up yourself, it's everywhere and commonly known.  Makes it into the papers pretty regularly.

And no - this is ABSOLUTELY NOT preventable by regulating some kinds of firearms.  That is just a lie that fools who don't understand what htey're talking about say - it's right up there with thinking you'll get rid of child predators by banning gay people. It's wrong for all kinds of reasons.

Canada has tonnes and tonnes of very similar guns but we dont' have the same level of problems. And it's not our laws on what type of gun that prevents it.  But - it's impossible to have a simple honest conversation about what CAN work because everyone on the left is too busy bathing in the blood of the victims and trying to 'ban guns'.

Wallow in your ignorance - it will guarantee that things like this continue to happen so you can enjoy your sense of self righteousness which is clearly more important than solving the problem.

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

That's actually quite big news. 

Also evidence of why owning a gun makes domestic murder, MORE LIKELY. 

It isn't. Most domesic murders don't involve a gun.

Also guns are very heavily regulated already in Canada.

But - YOUR comment is evidence of why we can't have a sane conversation about it.  Nothing but hatred and hoplophobia from your side, so the other side isn't interested.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

And no - this is ABSOLUTELY NOT preventable by regulating some kinds of firearms.  That is just a lie that fools who don't understand what htey're talking about say - it's right up there with thinking you'll get rid of child predators by banning gay people. It's wrong for all kinds of reasons.

Then why do all the countries that regulate gun control have almost no mass shootings? 

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Canada has tonnes and tonnes of very similar guns but we dont' have the same level of problems. And it's not our laws on what type of gun that prevents it.  But - it's impossible to have a simple honest conversation about what CAN work because everyone on the left is too busy bathing in the blood of the victims and trying to 'ban guns'.

So America needs Universal Healthcare? and a higher overall standard of living? What's unique about many of these incidents is that they often happen in places that largely don't see a lot of crime. See the Parkland shooting as an example. 

What makes the country so different as to not see an epidemic of gun crime? 

 

[Aristides]

46 minutes ago, Deluge said:

1. Too restrictive. You check State ID, do a quick background check, and then you proceed with business. You know, back in 1791, when the 2nd Amendment was fresh and new, the militia had muskets too. Perhaps you Marxist bedwetters should be grateful that we're not actually well-regulated and equally armed today. 

2. You're overreacting again, and I think you may even be crying. I'm opposed to the homosexual agenda and the abortion agenda. Oh, and paying for other people's condoms - I'm not into supporting other people's sexual habits; they can get their own goddamn rubbers. 

3. 620,327 abortions nationally and not a word from your side. In fact I'm willing to bet that at least 25% of you cultists either celebrate abortion or do it out of spite. 

!. Only applies to new sales by a dealer. 

2. Like I said, you are good with restricting the rights of others.

3. No one celebrates an abortion. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Deluge said:

1. There is no way in hell a p*ssy like you owns a gun. lol

2. You DO NOT understand your error, because your cyber gums are still flapping. lol

See, if you did understand your error, you would have already admitted that you hate the constitution and you wish globalists would come in and relieve you of all responsibilities. 

Sometimes, words will just not do it justice...

 

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It isn't. Most domesic murders don't involve a gun.

Also guns are very heavily regulated already in Canada.

That's why, because most Canadians don't have a gun, and when they do they require some mandated accountability about how to handle it/store it. 

And also why this particular shooting is big news. Because it's relatively rare. Ditto with any mass shooting in Canada. 

 

[Aristides]

30 minutes ago, Boges said:

This dude was military trained. These mass shooters come prepared with lots of ammo. 

You really want to live in a world where you have to be on guard from people like that everywhere you go? 

If everyone has a hand gun, then maybe these guys can be stopped after the kill a few people, but then you have the problem of everyone having a gun and simple squabbles end in Gun violence.

That's where the vast majority of gun violence happens. In the home, because it's there. 

https://everytownresearch.org/report/guns-and-violence-against-women-americas-uniquely-lethal-intimate-partner-violence-problem/

Or when a child knows where the gun is hidden: 

https://injepijournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40621-015-0057-0

Paradise to these knuckleheads. 

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

Then why do all the countries that regulate gun control have almost no mass shootings? 

 

Simply not true. And they do have mass murders, and serial murders etc.  Even Canada has mass shootings as defined by the us.

In fact - Gary mauser (canadian with SFU) did a paper and noted that the murder rate in countres all over the world had no correlation with their gun control or availability. You can find gary mauser and his numerous research papers on guns online easy enough.

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So America needs Universal Healthcare? and a higher overall standard of living? What's unique about many of these incidents is that they often happen in places that largely don't see a lot of crime. See the Parkland shooting as an example. 

You should be asking that instead of just blaming the gun.  Which is stupid

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What makes the country so different as to not see an epidemic of gun crime? 

Why do you care as long as you get to revel in the violence as you are here?

[CdnFox]

6 minutes ago, Boges said:

That's why, because most Canadians don't have a gun, and when they do they require some mandated accountability about how to handle it/store it. 

 

 

No, that's dumb.  Between legal and illegal guns roughly half of canadians have access to a gun. There are a lot more gun owners around you than you realize - most just don't talk about it because of people like you  But - there's about 1.4 million licenses out there and probably 2 times as many who let their license lapse but didn't turn their guns in, and that's before we get to criminals. Then there's the people who live with them.

There's many tens of millions of guns in Canada.  it's not that we don't have guns.

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And also why this particular shooting is big news. Because it's relatively rare. Ditto with any mass shooting in Canada. 

Actually if we use the us definition 'mass' shootings happen all the time in canada.

You're completely uneducated on this subject.

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Simply not true. And they do have mass murders, and serial murders etc.  Even Canada has mass shootings as defined by the us.

In fact - Gary mauser (canadian with SFU) did a paper and noted that the murder rate in countres all over the world had no correlation with their gun control or availability. You can find gary mauser and his numerous research papers on guns online easy enough.

Hogwash, America's murder rate is much higher compared to Canada, Much of Europe and Asia. 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country

 

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You should be asking that instead of just blaming the gun.  Which is stupid

Why do you care as long as you get to revel in the violence as you are here?

You're being obstinate. I'm attempting to have an honest debate and you're just throwing a hissy fit. 

[Deluge]

10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Sometimes, words will just not do it justice...

 

I love watching you cowards run. lol

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

No, that's dumb.  Between legal and illegal guns roughly half of canadians have access to a gun. There are a lot more gun owners around you than you realize - most just don't talk about it because of people like you  But - there's about 1.4 million licenses out there and probably 2 times as many who let their license lapse but didn't turn their guns in, and that's before we get to criminals. Then there's the people who live with them.

There's many tens of millions of guns in Canada.  it's not that we don't have guns.

Actually if we use the us definition 'mass' shootings happen all the time in canada.

You're completely uneducated on this subject.

Yes and gun ownership is highlight regulated. Guns that only really serve a purpose to kill people are largely banned or extraordinarily highly regulated. 

The type of shootings we largely have in Canada are largely gang related with guns smuggled from the US. You can pinpoint the reason for these crimes to poverty and drugs. 

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

Hogwash, America's murder rate is much higher compared to Canada, Much of Europe and Asia. 

murder rate - but that's true of all types of murders.  So it's not just the presence of guns.  Poeple just kill people more in the states.  But you're not asking why, you just blame the guns.

 

1 minute ago, Boges said:

You're being obstinate. I'm attempting to have an honest debate and you're just throwing a hissy fit. 

You are doing no such thing.  You started this off with a hissy fit - GUN OWNERS! !!!  BAD!!!! LONE WOLF!!!!! MURICA!!!!!

Then you made a number of factually incorrect statements, demonstrating this is about ideology for you and not facts or reason.

Then you pretended to be concerned about things like children finding guns when thats no where close to the biggest 'preventable' killer of kids.

ANd you completely ignore the mental health issue here - as if the gun is more of a factor than that in this guy deciding to be a murderer.

And now you're trying to claim that you're "just trying to have an "honest" debate.  There is nothing "honest" about your "debate" thus far.

Here it is in simple terms for you -

1. - it's not the gun. I can happily demonstrate (simulated targets) that with MOST guns out there i can kill just as many people just as easily.  Frankly - an ar isn't even the gun i'd choose.  It works fine, but it's just "popular", not the best choice.

2 - Restricting types of guns doesn't work.

3 - Mag caps and banning "The shoulder thing that goes up" does now work or make any difference.

4 - An AR is a LOW powered rifle. Compare it to a 30-06 or 308 which are MID power rifles.  Never mind a 7mm or 300 winmag or 338 lapua or the like. The 30-30 is a more powerful cartridge.

5 - Once a killer has decided it's ok to kill people - they find a way to kill people.  The secret to preventing deaths is to prevent them from getting to that point or stopping them before they take action.

6 - there are some simple gun laws which can help to reduce accidental deaths and some violent deaths.  But they're probably not the ones you think they are.

7 -  People like you pretending to have rational discussions while CLEARLY hating guns and gun owners and spouting drivel are precisely why the states are in the pickle they are in

8 - worth noting - harper relaxed gun laws but focused on ones that matter and violence - gun crime and violent crime went down. Trudeau has added all kinds of new gun laws and banned guns and relaxed violent crime laws - gun crime and violent has steadily gone up

It ain't the gun.

10 minutes ago, Boges said:

Yes and gun ownership is highlight regulated. Guns that only really serve a purpose to kill people are largely banned or extraordinarily highly regulated. 

 

Not even remotely true. Again - you know nothing of guns. I have many which are perfectly well designed to kill people - one's even called a 'threat response' shotgun - and the are not banned or even restricted.  I can put it in my car right now and drive around.

Strangely i haven't killed anyone yet. How is that possible?!?!!!?

And since trudeau put in MORE restrictions and banned MORE guns - gun crime has shot up.  Care to explain?

[Aristides]

20 minutes ago, Deluge said:

I love watching you cowards run. lol

Says the coward who anonymously calls others cowards.

[Boges]

17 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

murder rate - but that's true of all types of murders.  So it's not just the presence of guns.  Poeple just kill people more in the states.  But you're not asking why, you just blame the guns.

You don't think other factors that cause violence exist in other countries too? The Guns seems like the thing that sets the US a part. But I'll entertain the idea that wealth inequality certainly contributes to violence. 

But in incidents like this, it's often in places that don't really have high crime where a lonely, almost always a man, decides to take a bunch of people out with a military style weapon. 

 

You started this off with a hissy fit - GUN OWNERS! !!!  BAD!!!! LONE WOLF!!!!! MURICA!!!!!

Is that a quote or just inane hyperbole? 

 

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4 - An AR is a LOW powered rifle. Compare it to a 30-06 or 308 which are MID power rifles.  Never mind a 7mm or 300 winmag or 338 lapua or the like. The 30-30 is a more powerful cartridge.

 

So do you reckon that it's the weapon of choice for these murders? 

The US did have a ban on Assault Weapons. 

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/173405.pdf
 

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Exhibit 7 displays the steps in that analysis. Overall, 1995 gun murder rates were 9 percent lower than the projection.19 Gun murders declined 10.3 percent in States without preexisting assault weapons bans, but they remained unchanged in States with their own bans. After adjusting the projection for possible effects of State bans on juvenile handgun possession and a similar Federal ban that took effect simultaneously with the assault weapons ban, the study found that 1995 gun murder rates were 10.9 percent below the projected level. Finally, statistical controls were added for

 

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Not even remotely true. Again - you know nothing of guns. I have many which are perfectly well designed to kill people - one's even called a 'threat response' shotgun - and the are not banned or even restricted.  I can put it in my car right now and drive around.

Strangely i haven't killed anyone yet. How is that possible?!?!!!?

 

Loaded and available to shoot? Cite the law that allows for that. 

Maybe ask yourself why you think it's cool to own a weapon like that. 

[Aristides]

Firearms death rate per 100K population.

US 10.86

Canada 2.29

[herbie]

8 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Firearms death rate per 100K population.

US 10.86

Canada 2.29

Pointing out facts?

You must be a leftist gun hating wuss. Only those people can see reality!

It's a cornstitutional right to own a twin 50 cal to hunt rabbits and protect yourself from the bogeymen.

[CdnFox]

57 minutes ago, Boges said:

You don't think other factors that cause violence exist in other countries too? The Guns seems like the thing that sets the US a part. But I'll entertain the idea that wealth inequality certainly contributes to violence. 

So your argument is that there's no wealth inequity in other countries. Thats why it's high in the states

Do you not understand why it's impossible to believe you're taking this seriously? Basically you'll "Entertian" any cause you don't like or that fits your echo chamber, rather than taking a hard look at what the issues are.

 

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But in incidents like this, it's often in places that don't really have high crime where a lonely, almost always a man, decides to take a bunch of people out with a military style weapon. 

First off - "Military style'  is  a stupid and pointless phrase. There is no difference between a semi auto ar-15 and a semi auto Model 742 Woodsmaster as far as how fast they can kill, except the woodsmaster is probably using a much more powerful cartridge.

Secondly - so should we ban men?  Women own a HELL of a lot of guns, so if they're not doing the killing that suggests it isn't guns that's the problem.

Thirdly -  lets get down to brass tacks.  It's usually someone with a mental health issue that went undiagnosed or untreated. Almost nobody 'just snaps', it happens over time with warning signs.  It's also true of mass murderers who use other tools like vehicles.  (nobody seems to care about the serial killers who cause even more death and rarely use guns for some reason).

So - there's ways to address mental health issues but we'll never have that discussion because "GUNS - "MURICA BAD".

 

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Is that a quote or just inane hyperbole? 

So you won't even address what you said.  Well there you go.

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So do you reckon that it's the weapon of choice for these murders? 

No. The vast majority of gun deaths in the states is from handguns.  Canada too - despite it being FAR more regulated than any other gun in canada excluding prohibs. 

 

Quote

 

Loaded and available to shoot? Cite the law that allows for that. 

Maybe ask yourself why you think it's cool to own a weapon like that. 

 

Every single state that allows concealed carry allows them to be carried ready to shoot.  If you're too stupid to be able to look that up yourself you're too stupid for this conversation.  Do better

 And maybe ask yourself -" why did i say that he thought it was "cool"  when he never said that? Why did i feel the need to lie like that? Why do i avoid addressing the actual issues raised and instead simply make crap up?"

So much for your 'honest' conversations.

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And yet you're not blaming the military  but the gun.  And you think "these mass shooters" are unionized or something?

We already live in that world. People are assaulted and killed in our cities every single day.

which never happens. The stats are clear - lawful gun owners commit crimes far LESS than others and in the states concealed carry permit holders are right at the bottom.

Sorry - the majority of gun violence happens in the streets with criminals. The majority of DOMESTIC violence happens at home whether its' with a gun or not. Strangely people don't take the wife out to a restaurant to kill her.  FFS.

Far more children will die from drowning in pools;

https://www.cdc.gov/drowning/facts/index.html

But i don't hear you advocating for pool bans or tougher pool laws  Which tells me you don't really care about the kids dying, you care about the guns.  If you cared about the kids you'd be worried about what killed them the most wouldn't you.

 

We dont' know the story here yet but so far it SOUNDS like someone did not get the mental health treatment they needed and went nuts.  That's not a gun problem, that's a mental health problem. He could have killed people dozens of different ways - but you're silent about the mental health aspect . How interesting.

How many kids have their heads shoved under water until they drown. There are lot of pool laws when it comes to gates fencing and lifeguards in public pools. 

47 minutes ago, herbie said:

Pointing out facts?

You must be a leftist gun hating wuss. Only those people can see reality!

It's a cornstitutional right to own a twin 50 cal to hunt rabbits and protect yourself from the bogeymen.

Basically its everyone should have guns and we don't care about the consequences.

[Aristides]

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

A bulletin put out by the Maine Information and Analysis Center, a database for law enforcement officials, said Card was a trained firearms instructor and was believed to be in the Army Reserve.

It added that law enforcement said Card “recently reported mental health issues to include hearing voices and threats to shoot up the National Guard Base in Saco, ME.”

 

well THERE'S yer problem .

 

The problem is he could still buy an assault type weapon.

[Aristides]

16 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Another one who is just happy to see people dead so he can celebrate politically.

Another one who isn't willing to lift a finger to prevent those deaths.

[Aristides]

Quote

 

4 - An AR is a LOW powered rifle. Compare it to a 30-06 or 308 which are MID power rifles.  Never mind a 7mm or 300 winmag or 338 lapua or the like. The 30-30 is a more powerful cartridge.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/long-range-assassin/

Even though a .223 AR is basically .22 caliber, it has a muzzle velocity almost triple the most powerful .22 long rifle cartridge and almost 8 times the muzzle energy.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Aristides

[herbie]

You know that news like this has become so commonplace in the USA it's become what editors call a Dog Bites Man Story.
The other news term, 'above the fold' (top half of Page One), well this one barely made below the fold, in some editions not even Page One.

A mass shooting like this in 1989 Canada didn't bring more thoughts and prayers. It brought a round of crackdowns that would make most Americans of this forum literally shit themselves,
That was only the beginning. Just the other day, a US Senator was arrested in Hong Kong after feeling so entitled as an American he thought he could bring a gun into another country in his luggage, like dozens of others busted at the border every damn day.

Yet they mostly feel "wokeness: is the cultural sickness that must be addressed/

[Legato]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/long-range-assassin/

Even though a .223 AR is basically .22 caliber, it has a muzzle velocity almost triple the most powerful .22 long rifle cartridge and almost 8 times the muzzle energy.

But is still in the lower energy category.

https://backfire.tv/chart-of-all-rifle-calibers-in-order-and-their-power/

[Aristides]

Still capable of doing a ton of damage and still the #1 choice of  mass killers.