SpankyMcFarland Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 On 2/16/2024 at 10:53 AM, carepov said: My take on history: The Jews are the closest thing to an "indigenous peoples" to this land. It is very ironic that they are labeled as "colonizers". Zionists themselves had organizations that described what they were doing as colonization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Jewish_Colonization_Association The European Jews who started arriving in Palestine in modest numbers under the Ottomans and as a great flood under the British after 1917 were of mixed ancestry: part European and part Middle Eastern. Both Jews and Arab speakers in that part of the world have deep connections ethnically to pre-existing populations in the region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 (edited) Netanyahu’s approach to the war has shown less concern for the hostages than one might have expected. After the extraordinary bombing campaign of the last few months he is now publishing his plans for the Territories after the war which can only make negotiations even more difficult. Incredibly, they include yet more settlement in the West Bank which seems to be the cure for everything. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-west-bank-settlement-homes-palestinian-shooting-attack-smotrich-netanyahu/ Why release them now? The only people who will like this are hardliners in Israel. Edited February 23 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 On 2/23/2024 at 12:14 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: Zionists themselves had organizations that described what they were doing as colonization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Jewish_Colonization_Association That is interesting thanks. The group was founded to establish colonies in Argentina. Then went to Palestine. I imagine that if they foresaw todays negative connotation of the word colonization they would have changed their name. On 2/23/2024 at 12:14 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: The European Jews who started arriving in Palestine in modest numbers under the Ottomans and as a great flood under the British after 1917 were of mixed ancestry: part European and part Middle Eastern. Both Jews and Arab speakers in that part of the world have deep connections ethnically to pre-existing populations in the region. Yes I agree, both Jews and Arabs have deep connections to the land. I would add Christians too and I'm sure there are others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 There’s no question that Jews had to leave Eastern Europe. Long before the Nazis appeared, the Russian pogroms against them that followed the assassination of Tsar Alexander in 1881 forced them West and the British effectively closed the door in 1905. It’s a pity European nations didn’t pursue policies that could have led to a softer landing for everybody in Palestine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 On 2/23/2024 at 12:19 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: Netanyahu’s approach to the war has shown less concern for the hostages than one might have expected. After the extraordinary bombing campaign of the last few months he is now publishing his plans for the Territories after the war which can only make negotiations even more difficult. Incredibly, they include yet more settlement in the West Bank which seems to be the cure for everything. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-west-bank-settlement-homes-palestinian-shooting-attack-smotrich-netanyahu/ Why release them now? The only people who will like this are hardliners in Israel. I am honestly curious, what do you think would have been the optimal approach for Israel after 10/7? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: There’s no question that Jews had to leave Eastern Europe. Long before the Nazis appeared, the Russian pogroms against them that followed the assassination of Tsar Alexander in 1881 forced them West and the British effectively closed the door in 1905. It’s a pity European nations didn’t pursue policies that could have led to a softer landing for everybody in Palestine. Interesting alternative history questions. What if Jews were not forced out of Europe?.. Would there be a state of Israel today? If there was no Israel, what would Palestine (River to the Sea) be like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted February 25 Author Report Share Posted February 25 (edited) 14 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: There’s no question that Jews had to leave Eastern Europe. Long before the Nazis appeared, the Russian pogroms against them that followed the assassination of Tsar Alexander in 1881 forced them West and the British effectively closed the door in 1905. It’s a pity European nations didn’t pursue policies that could have led to a softer landing for everybody in Palestine. I'm curious...this same group, or tribe if you will, of Jewish people were kicked out of Palestine, moved east and got kicked out of Babylon, moved north and got kicked out of the Kazar kingdom, moved north and got kicked outta Russia, moved west and got kicked outta Europe and finally migrated back to Palestine, 2 thousand years later, by having Rothchild purchase the land from the Ottomans. Question: Does everyone hate these people? Or is there perhaps a reason people keep turfing them from their land? Edited February 25 by Nationalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 24 minutes ago, Nationalist said: I'm curious...this same group, or tribe if you will, of Jewish people were kicked out of Palestine, moved east and got kicked out of Babylon, moved north and got kicked out of the Kazar kingdom, moved north and got kicked outta Russia, moved west and got kicked outta Europe and finally migrated back to Palestine, 2 thousand years later, by having Rothchild purchase the land from the Ottomans. Question: Does everyone hate these people? Or is there perhaps a reason people keep turfing them from their land? They make excellent scapegoats and in history just weren't much in the way of forming military forces to fight back. They're perfect bully fodder. Easily identifiable, keep to themselves a fair bit so it's easy to spread lies about them, They're the quiet kid in the class that everyone picks on or makes fun of. well... used to be. Obviously these days they're a little more militant. And hey- they didnt get kicked out! Funny, that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted February 25 Author Report Share Posted February 25 7 minutes ago, CdnFox said: They make excellent scapegoats and in history just weren't much in the way of forming military forces to fight back. They're perfect bully fodder. Easily identifiable, keep to themselves a fair bit so it's easy to spread lies about them, They're the quiet kid in the class that everyone picks on or makes fun of. well... used to be. Obviously these days they're a little more militant. And hey- they didnt get kicked out! Funny, that If you do a deep dive into the history of the Jewish people, you find 3 main tribes. 2 of the 3 left Palestine and never really had issues after that. This 3rd tribe...had a pretty rough round trip. Israel is a reality and I do think they should claim all of Israel and be done with it. But knowing the history does shed light on the whys of this mess. I don't think weakness is why they have been historically punted around the middle east and eastern Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 10 hours ago, Nationalist said: If you do a deep dive into the history of the Jewish people, you find 3 main tribes. 2 of the 3 left Palestine and never really had issues after that. This 3rd tribe...had a pretty rough round trip. Israel is a reality and I do think they should claim all of Israel and be done with it. But knowing the history does shed light on the whys of this mess. I don't think weakness is why they have been historically punted around the middle east and eastern Europe. Well it sure wasn't their strength. It's not my field of study so i'll defer to you on this but other histories that happen to cross their path have been something i've looked at and i note they just weren't a significant' military force, unlike the christians for example or the muslims. It's no surprise to me that they wanted their own homeland and were ardent in being able to defend it. Everyone needs a door to lock to be able to sleep at night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 The persecution of Jews in the western part of the Russian empire was partly a side effect of Russia expanding into those regions and destroying Poland. Judged from a longer perspective, Europeans drove Jews out of Europe and made Palestinians pay the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted February 26 Author Report Share Posted February 26 13 hours ago, CdnFox said: Well it sure wasn't their strength. It's not my field of study so i'll defer to you on this but other histories that happen to cross their path have been something i've looked at and i note they just weren't a significant' military force, unlike the christians for example or the muslims. It's no surprise to me that they wanted their own homeland and were ardent in being able to defend it. Everyone needs a door to lock to be able to sleep at night. True. Part of the problem these people have always had, is their insistence on segregation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 15 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: The persecution of Jews in the western part of the Russian empire was partly a side effect of Russia expanding into those regions and destroying Poland. Judged from a longer perspective, Europeans drove Jews out of Europe and made Palestinians pay the price. Jews are not the cause of Palestinian suffering: a) 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel enjoy, on average, some of the best living standards in the ME b) West Bank and Gaza (before 10/7) residents have living standards comparable to other Arab countries c) Completely unrelated to Jews/Israel, there are plenty of Arabs throughout the ME that are "paying the price" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 6 hours ago, Nationalist said: True. Part of the problem these people have always had, is their insistence on segregation. That certainly has the ring of truth - without a doubt it's the fastest way to paint a target on your back. Nothing says "I'm different from you and possibly up to something" like sequestering yourself and frequently demanding people say 'shibboleth' to you before you'll be friendly with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 4 hours ago, carepov said: Jews are not the cause of Palestinian suffering: a) 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel enjoy, on average, some of the best living standards in the ME b) West Bank and Gaza (before 10/7) residents have living standards comparable to other Arab countries c) Completely unrelated to Jews/Israel, there are plenty of Arabs throughout the ME that are "paying the price" They are in the sense that they and the British took Palestine from them in the 20th century. That’s a fact independent of living standards. Palestinians have done well enough in other countries when they’re given a chance, not least the Arabian peninsula, Central America and Chile, so it’s not unreasonable to surmise they would prosper at home under the right conditions. I’m sure Lebanon and an independent Palestine could do much better than they are doing at the moment if they could end instability in their territories. Their record of indigenous entrepreneurship is stronger than that of, say, Egypt. Of course, only a fraction of the issues holding the ME back have anything to do with Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 9 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: They are in the sense that they and the British took Palestine from them in the 20th century. That’s a fact independent of living standards. And how does that make israel responsible for their happiness today? They've had 100 years to build a life for themselves - israel did it in that same time frame. Instead they chose violence and hatred and look where it got them. The reason they dont' prosper 'at home' is that very choice - they choose to lead disruptive and destructive lifestyles and that has consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 24 minutes ago, CdnFox said: And how does that make israel responsible for their happiness today? They've had 100 years to build a life for themselves - israel did it in that same time frame. Instead they chose violence and hatred and look where it got them. The reason they dont' prosper 'at home' is that very choice - they choose to lead disruptive and destructive lifestyles and that has consequences. What you are saying applies to Gaza - it seems to be in a doom loop at this stage that will take at least a generation to recover from and hopefully see more secular leadership emerge. But in the West Bank, how can Palestinians build a future there when Israel is clearly intent on paving the place? Where are they supposed to go? Even through this current Gaza crisis, Israeli settlers, often dressed in IDF uniforms, continue to harass and kill Palestinian farmers in an effort to drive them off their land. The other day, plans for thousands more settler houses were announced by America’s ally. The only reasonable thing to do for individuals who can do is to leave which is what Israel wants, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said: They are in the sense that they and the British took Palestine from them in the 20th century. That’s a fact independent of living standards. Correct me if I'm wrong, but never in history have Palestinians owned Palestine, therefore it was never taken away from them. 1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said: Palestinians have done well enough in other countries when they’re given a chance, not least the Arabian peninsula, Central America and Chile, so it’s not unreasonable to surmise they would prosper at home under the right conditions. I’m sure Lebanon and an independent Palestine could do much better than they are doing at the moment if they could end instability in their territories. Their record of indigenous entrepreneurship is stronger than that of, say, Egypt. Of course, only a fraction of the issues holding the ME back have anything to do with Israel. Palestinians have prospered at home as citizens of Israel. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank could have achieved a much better society. I'm not sure if bad luck or bad decision making is to blame, but I am convinced that it is not because of the Jews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 55 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: What you are saying applies to Gaza - it seems to be in a doom loop at this stage that will take at least a generation to recover from and hopefully see more secular leadership emerge. But in the West Bank, how can Palestinians build a future there when Israel is clearly intent on paving the place? Where are they supposed to go? Even through this current Gaza crisis, Israeli settlers, often dressed in IDF uniforms, continue to harass and kill Palestinian farmers in an effort to drive them off their land. The other day, plans for thousands more settler houses were announced by America’s ally. The only reasonable thing to do for individuals who can do is to leave which is what Israel wants, of course. The west bank gov't welcomed and signed on with Hamas. That killed negotiations which were underway at the time for a long term peaceful resolution. I may have more sympathy for them to a degree but at the end of the day they've made the same kinds of decisions. When Palestine chooses peace and leans into that, they'll get their own state and they'll have a chance to build a real life for themselves but its got to be all or nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 2 minutes ago, CdnFox said: The west bank gov't welcomed and signed on with Hamas. That killed negotiations which were underway at the time for a long term peaceful resolution. I may have more sympathy for them to a degree but at the end of the day they've made the same kinds of decisions. When Palestine chooses peace and leans into that, they'll get their own state and they'll have a chance to build a real life for themselves but its got to be all or nothing. I doubt Israel will ever permit a Palestinian state now, no matter how peaceful and secular the Palestinians become. Netanyahu has made clear in English what he often implied in Hebrew and what his party has always been committed to - an Israeli state from the river to the sea. What this means is permanent, stateless ethnic segregation for Palestinians in the West Bank under 24/7 Chinese-style harassment and surveillance in perpetuity. A South African politician recently objected to the term Apartheid for this system, saying what the Israelis have created is more severe. In any case, it seems destined to last a lot longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 2 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: I doubt Israel will ever permit a Palestinian state now, no matter how peaceful and secular the Palestinians become. Netanyahu has made clear in English what he often implied in Hebrew and what his party has always been committed to - an Israeli state from the river to the sea. What this means is permanent, stateless ethnic segregation for Palestinians in the West Bank under 24/7 Chinese-style harassment and surveillance in perpetuity. A South African politician recently objected to the term Apartheid for this system, saying what the Israelis have created is more severe. In any case, it seems destined to last a lot longer. I"m not as immersively well versed in the subject to flat out say you're wrong so i won't. And i think there's little doubt this attack will have closed that door in the minds of many, it's hard to get past that kind of thing. At least for a while. However - i suspect that there may yet be a path that could open up, IF the remaining palestinans really did set their minds to peace and co-existance. It might take a little while for both sides to really trust but i think it's doable. But i can't claim that with certainty, i just don't study the middle east enough to be my usual pushy self. But i'm going to call you a jerk anyway just so you don't think i'm getting soft . Jerk. I suppose the other option is assimilation. Give up the 'territories' and just become israel from the river to the sea and absorb and integrate the palestinian population. Probably wouldn't work with the gazans but maybe the west bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 8 hours ago, CdnFox said: That certainly has the ring of truth - without a doubt it's the fastest way to paint a target on your back. Nothing says "I'm different from you and possibly up to something" like sequestering yourself and frequently demanding people say 'shibboleth' to you before you'll be friendly with them The Canadian natives have a very similar problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 5 minutes ago, Nationalist said: The Canadian natives have a very similar problem. So we should ship them to the middle east you're saying. I like it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 On 2/24/2024 at 12:51 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: There’s no question that Jews had to leave Eastern Europe. Long before the Nazis appeared, the Russian pogroms against them that followed the assassination of Tsar Alexander in 1881 forced them West and the British effectively closed the door in 1905. It’s a pity European nations didn’t pursue policies that could have led to a softer landing for everybody in Palestine. It's a pity a homeland for European Jews wasn't carved out of the ruins of the Third Reich. We wouldn't have a Forever War in the ME and we'd probably have a very enthusiastic ally against Putin in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted March 8 Report Share Posted March 8 3 hours ago, eyeball said: It's a pity a homeland for European Jews wasn't carved out of the ruins of the Third Reich. You keep saying that and you keep being told why it would not have been possible. It's like that whole santa clause thing we discussed - you have to let it go and move on, there is no such thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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