Zeitgeist Posted October 3, 2023 Report Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Boges said: Giving someone a lethal dose of Morphine to ease a person's pain is not some new practice. https://www.mypcnow.org/fast-fact/morphine-and-hastened-death/ As an aside, Google thinks want to kill myself looking for cites on this issue ? 1 hour ago, Boges said: That's absurd to embrace suffering to simply embrace the sanctity of life until the very last minute. I notice no one commented about my example of killing ones self quickly as opposed to, say being burned alive. Are these dogmatic principals used for that as well? You’re using an extreme example as a vehicle for supporting unethical and reckless policies that are so ripe for abuse that, as soon as these policies were implemented, the scope of who can be killed and the reasons quickly widened and the pressure of health professionals and family members to consider assisted suicide grew. This is very much about the sanctity of life and you can’t be a little bit pregnant on this issue. Killing is the increasingly used cheap “healthcare” option in Canada. It has nothing to do with healthcare. The medical ethicists knew and said this and the MP’s ignored. Now the policies are overriding the constitutionally protected decisions of doctors and institutions not to assist killing. It’s wrong but you don’t see it because you’re inured to it, another inevitable consequence of normalization. Canada clearly has a bad healthcare system because we have these dubious policies at the same time that we fail to diagnose, treat, and save people from dying. Weak. Edited October 3, 2023 by Zeitgeist Quote
Aristides Posted October 3, 2023 Report Posted October 3, 2023 4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: Read the book, Why do bad things happen to good people? Let’s put religion aside, since you’re an atheist. Do you think life has inherent value and is better than death? I’m not saying it’s always worth putting someone through procedures and treatments to keep them alive. It’s an entirely different move to kill someone using a lethal procedure from helping someone to stay alive or to keep them from feeling pain. I see now that this is personal for you because of the loss of your wife. I don’t judge you. I think most people have weaknesses or simply can only handle so much before they break. Those who don’t break are written about as martyrs or saints or heroes because of their tremendous strength. Our state no longer elevates such people. Instead it caves into weakness. It’s a theme in Canada in recent years, but it has support, just like legal hard drug use and unlimited abortion on demand. It’s becoming a country of throwing in the towel. Preaching the sanctity of life while embracing capital punishment is indeed being a little bit pregnant. No one should have to martyr themselves just to make you feel righteous. Quote
Zeitgeist Posted October 3, 2023 Report Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Aristides said: Preaching the sanctity of life while embracing capital punishment is indeed being a little bit pregnant. No one should have to martyr themselves just to make you feel righteous. I’m against capital punishment, so I don’t know where that comment is coming from. Maybe you’re trying to paint me as part of a political movement. I’m going to give you a piece of advice for which you aren’t ready and that you will no doubt mock. Maybe it will plant a seed. Whatever happened with your wife must’ve been very difficult and I can tell that you’re wrestling with what happened. People aren’t perfect and they generally do the best they can with the resources that they have and what they know, I think. I think you did what you felt was necessary to manage. I think it’s forgivable but I also think it was wrong. I think you should pray for forgiveness, pray for your wife and yourself, and ask God to give you peace and strength. I think if you do all of this sincerely, you will find peace. Canada has lapsed into weak, unethical practices that put people at risk of unnecessary or unwanted death. The world has taken note. Edited October 3, 2023 by Zeitgeist Quote
Aristides Posted October 3, 2023 Report Posted October 3, 2023 Actually it was blackbird, not you. I’m only wrestling with what happened because I miss her and because of what she is missing. I don’t need forgiveness and neither does she, certainly not from you. Quote
Zeitgeist Posted October 3, 2023 Report Posted October 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Aristides said: Actually it was blackbird, not you. I’m only wrestling with what happened because I miss her and because of what she is missing. I don’t need forgiveness and neither does she, certainly not from you. It’s not mine to give. Quote
Aristides Posted October 3, 2023 Report Posted October 3, 2023 56 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: It’s not mine to give. It isn't anyones to give. 7 hours ago, OftenWrong said: Rubbish. If there's a god, why should it manage your life? Are you a puppet on a string? What is it you think I meant? Quote
OftenWrong Posted October 3, 2023 Report Posted October 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Aristides said: What is it you think I meant? I think you meant to say that you and your deceased wife deserve something more than everyone else. That good and nice people should be exempt from dying and that god is to blame. And while I empathize with anyone who's gone through a tragic loss, you have it no different or worse than anyone else. Quote
Aristides Posted October 3, 2023 Report Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: I think you meant to say that you and your deceased wife deserve something more than everyone else. That good and nice people should be exempt from dying and that god is to blame. And while I empathize with anyone who's gone through a tragic loss, you have it no different or worse than anyone else. I'm not saying that at all. I just don't think a god has anything to do with it. I walk three times a week with a bunch of others who have lost their spouses. I know I'm not special. Edited October 3, 2023 by Aristides Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 3, 2023 Report Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) There’s no way we’re going back to a time when people of sound mind with painful or distressing terminal conditions couldn’t choose to die when they wanted to. That debate is over. Now we are into much thornier issues regarding mental illness and disabilities. Edited October 3, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland 1 1 Quote
blackbird Posted October 4, 2023 Author Report Posted October 4, 2023 (edited) Say no to a culture of death. Never give in, never back down. Do the right thing and defend the sanctity of human life at all stages. No Options, No Choice (nooptionsnochoice.com) Euthanasia Prevention Coalition | Building a broad based network to oppose euthanasia & assisted suicide worldwide. (epcc.ca) Edited October 4, 2023 by blackbird 1 Quote
OftenWrong Posted October 4, 2023 Report Posted October 4, 2023 3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: There’s no way we’re going back to a time when people of sound mind with painful or distressing terminal conditions couldn’t choose to die when they wanted to. That debate is over. Now we are into much thornier issues regarding mental illness and disabilities. Agreed it's much preferable to have that choice and control over your final ending. However, and there' usually a however, I disagree when I hear things about people's health care being neglected, they are not given timely and appropriate care, and thus they decline more rapidly than they would have. Where people choose death because they cannot get timely care, is where I draw the line. Other countries debated MAID in their parliament but declined after looking at how Canada implemented it, and the results. 'Disturbing' Canadian euthanasia regime should give world pause, British MPs told The Guardianhttps://www.theguardian.com › world › may › canada... May 11, 2022 — Critics argue laws are being misused to punish the poor but experts say cases represent country's failure to care for its most vulnerable ... Who can die? Canada wrestles with euthanasia for the ... BBChttps://www.bbc.com › world-us-canada-64004329 Jan 14, 2023 — In 2015, the country's Supreme Court ruled that banning assisted suicide deprived Canadians of their dignity and autonomy. It gave Parliament ... Canada's voyage down the slippery slope | Ben Woodfinden The Critic Magazinehttps://thecritic.co.uk › Artillery Row Aug 17, 2022 — The court rejected the concern that once assisted suicide was allowed in some rare cases, there would be a “slippery slope” from helping ... More than we imagined? Unresolved tensions and the ... The Macdonald-Laurier Institutehttps://macdonaldlaurier.ca › more-than-we-imagined-... Apr 20, 2023 — This commentary by Shawn Whatley looks at how Canada has implemented medical aid in dying (MAiD) since it became legalized several years ... Woman with chemical sensitivities chose death CTV Newshttps://www.ctvnews.ca › health › woman-with-chemi... Apr 13, 2022 — A 51-year-old Ontario woman with severe sensitivities to chemicals chose medically-assisted death after her desperate search for affordable ... 'Disturbing': Experts troubled by Canada's euthanasia laws AP Newshttps://apnews.com › article Aug 11, 2022 — They said the law had a “discriminatory impact” on disabled people and was inconsistent with Canada's obligations to uphold international human ... Medically-assisted death: Canada will be most liberal ... CTV Newshttps://www.ctvnews.ca › the-death-debate-why-some-... Oct 15, 2022 — Some experts warn Canada is about to become the most liberal country in the world in allowing medical assistance in dying (MAiD) for people ... Hungry, Poor, and Disabled Canadians Now Seeking ... National Catholic Registerhttps://www.ncregister.com › CNA Dec 13, 2022 — “We're at the point where clients on these programs are telling us they're considering medically assisted death or suicide because they can't ... The expansion of assisted suicide in Canada | Health News Al Jazeerahttps://www.aljazeera.com › podcasts › 2022/11/30 › t... Nov 30, 2022 — Canada's expansion of euthanasia legislation, or MAID as it is known, has caused concerns among rights groups. medical professional is preparing ... Federal government moves to delay MAID for people ... CBChttps://www.cbc.ca › news › politics › maid-delay-sole... Feb 2, 2023 — The Liberal government is introducing legislation to delay by one year the expansion of the medically assisted death (MAID) law to cover those suffering solely from mental illness. Canada's euthanasia regime is a cautionary tale for the UK UnHerd https://unherd.com › thepost › canadas-euthanasia-regi... Dec 8, 2022 — Just because Canada isn't getting it right at the moment, doesn't mean this isn't something worth doing. If Mary is fundamentally opposed to ... How Canada's Assisted-Suicide Law Went Wrong The Atlantichttps://www.theatlantic.com › archive › 2023/06 › can... May 4, 2023 — Back in 2016, critics of the MAID law saw this coming. They warned that soon enough, people in anguish and near death wouldn't be the only ... Canada hospital apologises for mentioning assisted ... The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk › World › Americas Aug 10, 2023 — A hospital in Vancouver has apologised for mentioning “medical assistance in dying” (MAID) to a patient who sought psychiatric care after ... UK Parliament Committee hears Canada euthanasia policy ... Right To Life UKhttps://righttolife.org.uk › news › uk-parliament-com... Jun 8, 2023 — Dr Kim further described the evolution of Canada's MAID programme as “a very dangerous situation in my view” since, unlike in other ... Quote
blackbird Posted October 4, 2023 Author Report Posted October 4, 2023 "Recently Kathrin Mentler went to the Assessment Centre at Vancouver General Hospital for help as she was experiencing suicidal ideation. While being assessed the counsellor asked her if she had considered Medical Assistance in Dying. Mentler told the media that she was shocked and sickened that she was given recommendations on how to kill herself. A report from the Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in Dying (AMAD) that was tabled in the House of Commons on February 15, 2023 calling for a drastic expansion of (MAiD). The report recommended that "mature minors" and patients with dementia should be permitted to make advanced requests for MAiD by advanced directive. We need you to help slow the growth and normalization of MAiD in Canada. Enough is enough. Death-care for some is not a substitute for healthcare for all." Euthanasia Prevention Coalition Euthanasia Prevention Coalition: Conservative Party of Canada passes Policy 908 opposing expansion of euthanasia (alexschadenberg.blogspot.com) 1 Quote
blackbird Posted October 4, 2023 Author Report Posted October 4, 2023 " The recording from an October 2021 training session documents the use of sedation to obtain consent. Raikin explains the importance of the use of sedation to obtain consent for death: At the core of death care is the presumption that safeguards work and that consent, the most important safeguard, prevents death care from slipping into rampant homicide or suicide contagion. Instead, it is turning into the end of medicine. Raikin provides examples of the use of sedation to gain consent for death: In Belgium last year, after a lethal injection failed to kill a 36-year-old woman with terminal cancer, the presiding physician smothered her with a pillow. In New Zealand and Canada, suicidal patients seeking medical care for suicide prevention were prompted to consider assisted suicide instead. In the Netherlands, a similar story of a physician sedating her patient into accepting euthanasia led to the first criminal trial of a euthanasia physician. She was acquitted. The judges said, “We believe that given the deeply demented condition of the patient the doctor did not need to verify her wish for euthanasia,” even though the patient repeatedly attempted to fight off her physician." Euthanasia Prevention Coalition Euthanasia Prevention Coalition: Canada: How Death Care is pushing out Health Care (alexschadenberg.blogspot.com) 1 Quote
blackbird Posted October 4, 2023 Author Report Posted October 4, 2023 Some commenters on here think MAID is a simple matter of individual free choice. In actual fact that is not how it has worked in the world. Read some of the many articles to learn the truth of what has been happening in the world. Politicians who pass MAID laws think they have everything solved and do not realize that is not how things work out in the real world. " Euthanasia: impossible to police once legal Alex Schadenberg Executive Director, Euthanasia Prevention Coalition Professor Theo Boer The Irish Law Society Gazette published an article on September 26, 2023 reporting on the presentation by Professor Theo Boer to the [Irish government] Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying. Dr. Boer, who is from the Netherlands, supported the Netherlands euthanasia law in the past. However, after being a euthanasia case reviewer for 9 years (2005 - 2014) he has come to the conclusion that it is impossible to police the euthanasia law. Boer told the Committee: Loneliness and meaningless are constituent reasons for asking for euthanasia. Boer gave an example of how the law could not be upheld: He cited a Dutch case where there was a question over the legitimacy of a signature requesting euthanasia, and from which an ethics committee had to step back, because it did not hold criminal investigatory powers. “When the doctor was asked ‘are you sure that this signature is the signature of the patient’, the doctor said ‘I was told that it was’. “So, in the end, we backed off,” Prof Boer said. Boer commented on the "silent pressure" of euthanasia: “Once you have a law … it is absolutely impossible to put a police officer in every hospital room or in every bedroom … and look [for] some silent pressure,” “That is impossible, because that will infringe very much on the privacy of their patient-doctor relationship so there is no solution,” Euthanasia Prevention Coalition Euthanasia Prevention Coalition: Euthanasia: impossible to police once legal (alexschadenberg.blogspot.com) 1 Quote
OftenWrong Posted October 4, 2023 Report Posted October 4, 2023 7 hours ago, Aristides said: I know I'm not special. I'm sure you are, to those who are close to you in your life. And we around here think you're pretty special too. Take that any way you want it. lol Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 5, 2023 Report Posted October 5, 2023 (edited) On 10/3/2023 at 11:10 PM, OftenWrong said: Agreed it's much preferable to have that choice and control over your final ending. However, and there' usually a however, I disagree when I hear things about people's health care being neglected, they are not given timely and appropriate care, and thus they decline more rapidly than they would have. Where people choose death because they cannot get timely care, is where I draw the line. Other countries debated MAID in their parliament but declined after looking at how Canada implemented it, and the results. 'Disturbing' Canadian euthanasia regime should give world pause, British MPs told The Guardianhttps://www.theguardian.com › world › may › canada... May 11, 2022 — Critics argue laws are being misused to punish the poor but experts say cases represent country's failure to care for its most vulnerable ... Who can die? Canada wrestles with euthanasia for the ... BBChttps://www.bbc.com › world-us-canada-64004329 Jan 14, 2023 — In 2015, the country's Supreme Court ruled that banning assisted suicide deprived Canadians of their dignity and autonomy. It gave Parliament ... Canada's voyage down the slippery slope | Ben Woodfinden The Critic Magazinehttps://thecritic.co.uk › Artillery Row Aug 17, 2022 — The court rejected the concern that once assisted suicide was allowed in some rare cases, there would be a “slippery slope” from helping ... More than we imagined? Unresolved tensions and the ... The Macdonald-Laurier Institutehttps://macdonaldlaurier.ca › more-than-we-imagined-... Apr 20, 2023 — This commentary by Shawn Whatley looks at how Canada has implemented medical aid in dying (MAiD) since it became legalized several years ... Woman with chemical sensitivities chose death CTV Newshttps://www.ctvnews.ca › health › woman-with-chemi... Apr 13, 2022 — A 51-year-old Ontario woman with severe sensitivities to chemicals chose medically-assisted death after her desperate search for affordable ... 'Disturbing': Experts troubled by Canada's euthanasia laws AP Newshttps://apnews.com › article Aug 11, 2022 — They said the law had a “discriminatory impact” on disabled people and was inconsistent with Canada's obligations to uphold international human ... Medically-assisted death: Canada will be most liberal ... CTV Newshttps://www.ctvnews.ca › the-death-debate-why-some-... Oct 15, 2022 — Some experts warn Canada is about to become the most liberal country in the world in allowing medical assistance in dying (MAiD) for people ... Hungry, Poor, and Disabled Canadians Now Seeking ... National Catholic Registerhttps://www.ncregister.com › CNA Dec 13, 2022 — “We're at the point where clients on these programs are telling us they're considering medically assisted death or suicide because they can't ... The expansion of assisted suicide in Canada | Health News Al Jazeerahttps://www.aljazeera.com › podcasts › 2022/11/30 › t... Nov 30, 2022 — Canada's expansion of euthanasia legislation, or MAID as it is known, has caused concerns among rights groups. medical professional is preparing ... Federal government moves to delay MAID for people ... CBChttps://www.cbc.ca › news › politics › maid-delay-sole... Feb 2, 2023 — The Liberal government is introducing legislation to delay by one year the expansion of the medically assisted death (MAID) law to cover those suffering solely from mental illness. Canada's euthanasia regime is a cautionary tale for the UK UnHerdhttps://unherd.com › thepost › canadas-euthanasia-regi... Dec 8, 2022 — Just because Canada isn't getting it right at the moment, doesn't mean this isn't something worth doing. If Mary is fundamentally opposed to ... How Canada's Assisted-Suicide Law Went Wrong The Atlantichttps://www.theatlantic.com › archive › 2023/06 › can... May 4, 2023 — Back in 2016, critics of the MAID law saw this coming. They warned that soon enough, people in anguish and near death wouldn't be the only ... Canada hospital apologises for mentioning assisted ... The Independenthttps://www.independent.co.uk › World › Americas Aug 10, 2023 — A hospital in Vancouver has apologised for mentioning “medical assistance in dying” (MAID) to a patient who sought psychiatric care after ... UK Parliament Committee hears Canada euthanasia policy ... Right To Life UKhttps://righttolife.org.uk › news › uk-parliament-com... Jun 8, 2023 — Dr Kim further described the evolution of Canada's MAID programme as “a very dangerous situation in my view” since, unlike in other ... As far as I can see, most of those links are about how our system was implemented, not whether one should exist under the conditions I defined. We are going to keep MAID. There is no doubt about that. Edited October 5, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland Quote
OftenWrong Posted October 5, 2023 Report Posted October 5, 2023 12 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: As far as I can see, most of those links are about how our system was implemented, not whether one should exist under the conditions I defined. We are going to keep MAID. There is no doubt about that. And as far as I can see, one should exist but not in the way we have implemented. It's not as simple as that. Quote
Zeitgeist Posted October 5, 2023 Report Posted October 5, 2023 1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said: As far as I can see, most of those links are about how our system was implemented, not whether one should exist under the conditions I defined. We are going to keep MAID. There is no doubt about that. You think MAID is a sign of progress. It’s actually a sign of dystopian failure, which is why the UK and other countries are not allowing assisted suicide. They’re citing Canadian assisted suicide as the cautionary tale. Quote
eyeball Posted October 5, 2023 Report Posted October 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: You think MAID is a sign of progress. It’s actually a sign of dystopian failure, which is why the UK and other countries are not allowing assisted suicide. They’re citing Canadian assisted suicide as the cautionary tale. You can be pretty sure MAID advocates in other countries are citing Canada too. 1 Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Zeitgeist Posted October 5, 2023 Report Posted October 5, 2023 1 hour ago, eyeball said: You can be pretty sure MAID advocates in other countries are citing Canada too. Canada looks ridiculous on so many files now. MAID is just one more fail. Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 5, 2023 Report Posted October 5, 2023 12 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: You think MAID is a sign of progress. It’s actually a sign of dystopian failure, which is why the UK and other countries are not allowing assisted suicide. They’re citing Canadian assisted suicide as the cautionary tale. Assisted suicide is coming in Britain. Look at the polls. People are tired of having to break the law at home or travel to Switzerland to get what they want. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/aug/28/two-thirds-of-britons-support-legalising-assisted-dying-poll-shows?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 5, 2023 Report Posted October 5, 2023 11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: Canada looks ridiculous on so many files now. MAID is just one more fail. So is Poilievre going to ban it completely if he gets in? Is that a promise? Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 5, 2023 Report Posted October 5, 2023 13 hours ago, OftenWrong said: And as far as I can see, one should exist but not in the way we have implemented. It's not as simple as that. A simple question: should Canada have assisted suicide? Yes or no. The details beyond that are a completely different debate about which we can have many opinions. Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted October 5, 2023 Report Posted October 5, 2023 Keep damn religions out of the lives of citizens. Governments have no business to decide for its citizens. If for my own reasons I wish to terminate my life I will do it with or without a doctor's assistance. A doctor's assistance only makes it painless. It is nobody's damn business. Quote
OftenWrong Posted October 5, 2023 Report Posted October 5, 2023 33 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: A simple question: should Canada have assisted suicide? Yes or no. The details beyond that are a completely different debate about which we can have many opinions. Already answered three times and explained my opinion and concerns. No need to start another thread Hopefully the UK does allow for MAID but not in the way we've implemented. It will be interesting to see what they come up with. Canada should take note. Quote
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