Another example of why their is no dialogue in Canada with the left.

[Michael Hardner]

45 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

1. Saying that antisemitism is belonging to the far right only and denying a single ounce of antisemitism exists on the extreme left is preposterous.

2. Using the term guerrilla refers mainly to warfare. Which war are you on about?

1. Yes. Good thing I didn't say that.

2. Unorganized I said.

[CdnFox]

33 minutes ago, Nexii said:

Is it the teachers though or the school boards? I don't think teachers get much say over the curriculum

They do and in fact have refused to change curriculums they teach and have introduced books that they were asked not to  often enough.  Lets not forget that video of that new teacher in new brunswik crying her eyes out at the idea that parents should be informed, screaming to the heavens that this isn't why she became a teacher, she should have the right to keep whatever she wants from the parents. 

The teachers unions are INSANELY left wing. Like, HARD left in most provinces. The woke of the wokescolds.  And they will push back very hard and drag other unions into the fight. which is precisely what is happening.

I get that these teachers aren't gays or trans and yet are speaking FOR them as if they are, and that it's not right to look at THEIR antics and attribute them to the  Gay/trans communities as a whole, but it's hard not to sometimes.

I think most gays and trans people want to just live in peace. And i think that most people are happy to let them do so and willing to make some accommodation in their lives to assist with that. But seriously - for a lot of parents these days it feels like trans and gays are DEMANDING that THEY raise your children, not you.

[PIK]

Teachers are scared to speak up against fellow teachers , the boards and unions.

[Nexii]

13 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Another poll, this one from Angus-Reid, showing that trans policies that have been adopted due to the ferocious activism of trans types is out of step with what the public wants.

As duelling protests took place in Canadian cities over the issue of gender ideology in schools, a new survey from the Angus Reid Institute revealed that most Canadians support a middle ground: They favour equality and accommodation for trans people, but generally don’t believe men can self-identify as women.

Of respondents, just 35 per cent agreed with the sentiment — now enshrined via a latticework of federal and provincial laws — that “anyone who wishes can identify as a woman.” About the same number (34 per cent) sided with the notion that women are only those “who were born with female genitalia.”

Another 18 per cent were comfortable with the idea of men legally becoming women, but only if they changed their genitalia through surgery.

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/angus-reid-poll-transgender-policies-canada

It's a mix of opinions, none of which are close to a majority. And I can say why this is. Male/female is not just biology (like the right believes) or gender (like the left believes). It is a mix of both. The sooner both sides can see this, the easier it will be to accept and move on. Questions like this are flawed in that they are basically asking people whether they believe male/female refers to gender or to sex.

The life experience of being MtF trans is nothing like being born female. It's also nothing like being born male. 

The hangups about legal gender are feeling more and more dated to me. Does it matter really if my passport or driver's licence states my gender? Isn't my name and DOB enough to identify me? In medical contexts perhaps there's some value but neither M nor F really tell the whole story. 

How else to express this sentiment? A lot of the government systems and processes really need reform I suppose I'd say. Whether it's how we're identified, the process of transition, qualification, really all of it is not very modern. I don't have the sense that either side really gets it

[Nexii]

5 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

They do and in fact have refused to change curriculums they teach and have introduced books that they were asked not to  often enough.  Lets not forget that video of that new teacher in new brunswik crying her eyes out at the idea that parents should be informed, screaming to the heavens that this isn't why she became a teacher, she should have the right to keep whatever she wants from the parents. 

The teachers unions are INSANELY left wing. Like, HARD left in most provinces. The woke of the wokescolds.  And they will push back very hard and drag other unions into the fight. which is precisely what is happening.

I get that these teachers aren't gays or trans and yet are speaking FOR them as if they are, and that it's not right to look at THEIR antics and attribute them to the  Gay/trans communities as a whole, but it's hard not to sometimes.

I think most gays and trans people want to just live in peace. And i think that most people are happy to let them do so and willing to make some accommodation in their lives to assist with that. But seriously - for a lot of parents these days it feels like trans and gays are DEMANDING that THEY raise your children, not you.

Yes, I don't disagree there. And the hard left is not helping to achieve broader acceptance and tolerance. Neither is the hard right which has settled in with the CPC... this is sort of my worry here. The big tent does include a lot of people who maybe aren't hateful but have really strong opinions about something they don't understand at all. 

I have my doubts that there's ever even *been* a student who thought they'd like to be the other gender just at school. How long would that secret last with social media and kids these days? The parents would hear it from other parents within a week. It's an entirely constructed fictional scenario. 

[CdnFox]

14 minutes ago, Nexii said:

Male/female is not just biology (like the right believes)

Gotta call out your bigotry there, girl. That is NOT what "The Right" believes at all.

The vast majority of people on the right bleieve there are two genders and people are a combination of those two and it's a different 'blend' for each person, with different elements at different levels.  People accept a guy could be the type to cry at a sad movie and still be the type to punch your lights out for insulting them.

What they don't believe is that there are 73 different genders including attack helicopter.

So when you say "all those on the right" think that there's no spectrum, first off it's not true in the slightest and secondly turns out people on the right all have varying opinons of lots of things. Our culture isn't the same as the left where if we disagree with the 'established dogma' we're cancelled or ridiculed,

 

[Nexii]

Just now, CdnFox said:

Gotta call out your bigotry there, girl. That is NOT what "The Right" believes at all.

The vast majority of people on the right bleieve there are two genders and people are a combination of those two and it's a different 'blend' for each person, with different elements at different levels.  People accept a guy could be the type to cry at a sad movie and still be the type to punch your lights out for insulting them.

What they don't believe is that there are 73 different genders including attack helicopter.

So when you say "all those on the right" think that there's no spectrum, first off it's not true in the slightest and secondly turns out people on the right all have varying opinons of lots of things. Our culture isn't the same as the left where if we disagree with the 'established dogma' we're cancelled or ridiculed,

 

Yes but why do we believe in just two genders? Most societies around the world historically had three genders. The Ancient Greeks (androgynous/hermaphrodite origin), Hirjas of India, Muxes of Mexico, two-spirit Indigenous, and so on. Male, female, other. We've only had two because our Western Christian culture tried in vain to erase the "other".  

Not 73 or whatever ridiculous stuff the woke left cooks up. I will say the woke left goes way too far with these identities, flags, and letters. That's trying way too hard to be special. Being an "other" is special enough in itself. We really don't need all that complexity. 

 

[CdnFox]

16 minutes ago, Nexii said:

Yes, I don't disagree there. And the hard left is not helping to achieve broader acceptance and tolerance. Neither is the hard right which has settled in with the CPC... this is sort of my worry here. The big tent does include a lot of people who maybe aren't hateful but have really strong opinions about something they don't understand at all. 

I have my doubts that there's ever even *been* a student who thought they'd like to be the other gender just at school. How long would that secret last with social media and kids these days? The parents would hear it from other parents within a week. It's an entirely constructed fictional scenario. 

Well i wondered about that.

And honestly it seems to me that if the argument is "well some parents might be very angry to find out their kid is gay/trans"  - how exactly do they think this theoretically violent parent is going to react when they find out the same thing AND that the kid has been lying to them and using the excuse that their parents can't be trusted?

Honestly - my kid being trans or gay wouldn't be that big a deal, my kid lying to me like that and running around telling everyone else, and spreading the idea that they were afraid i'd hurt them for something like that would probably permanently affect that relationship.

But in the teacher's minds the parents have no rights, the parents are basically all evil stem moms and dads from the disney universe, they have no feelings of their own, etc.

[Nexii]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

Well i wondered about that.

And honestly it seems to me that if the argument is "well some parents might be very angry to find out their kid is gay/trans"  - how exactly do they think this theoretically violent parent is going to react when they find out the same thing AND that the kid has been lying to them and using the excuse that their parents can't be trusted?

Honestly - my kid being trans or gay wouldn't be that big a deal, my kid lying to me like that and running around telling everyone else, and spreading the idea that they were afraid i'd hurt them for something like that would probably permanently affect that relationship.

But in the teacher's minds the parents have no rights, the parents are basically all evil stem moms and dads from the disney universe, they have no feelings of their own, etc.

Well the poll did say 1 in 10 parents would vehemently be against their child transitioning. But I think what was lost is this. Is the child consenting to being outed or not? I never got a clear picture of how they envisioned the process playing out. 

I don't think if a child wishes to go by the other gender that the school should be helping them do it in secret. At the same time if the child isn't yet ready to go to their parents about it, the school shouldn't be expected to out them. 

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Nexii said:

Yes but why do we believe in just two genders?

 

Because there are two genders.

Quote

Most societies around the world historically had three genders. The Ancient Greeks (androgynous/hermaphrodite origin), Hirjas of India, Muxes of Mexico, two-spirit Indigenous, and so on. Male, female, other. We've only had two because our Western Christian culture tried in vain to erase the "other".  

the absence of a gender is not a third gender. If one person has an apple, another has an orage, and a third person has nothing - that 'nothing' is not a third type of fruit.

As to the rest - to be honest a lot of that is being 'retcon'ed these days to fit an agenda.

No person is any 'one' gender. Histoicaly 'gender' is just the name we give to traits we associate with males or females. and people have a very vast and wide variety of traits.  If gender was a seperate "Thing" it would be the same in all societies asd it's not.  Wearing a dress is a 'female' gender trait these days - go tell the scots that their kilts are girly. I'll bring you some grapes in the hospital.

And of course each society has at any given time a range that they consider 'typical' for men and women, a 'normal' or 'typical' blend if you will. And as with every element of human life some people will be atypical.

But that doesn't mean there are thousands of genders.

If i mix my soup with a teaspoon of salt and 2 of pepper, and you prefer 2 of salt and 2 of pepper - that doesnt' mean that it's a different kind of soup.

What we tend to say as a society is that women, for biological and other reasons,  tend to have these traits.  Men tend to have these ones, and individuals are a mix of what those traits are.  It IS affected strongly by biology, but it's also perception and such. But you cant' separate the biology from it.

Also personality is NOT gender.

Quote

Not 73 or whatever ridiculous stuff the woke left cooks up. I will say the woke left goes way too far with these identities, flags, and letters. That's trying way too hard to be special. Being an "other" is special enough in itself. We really don't need all that complexity. 

Here's the deal.  You don't 'need' any of that crap. You are who you are and you don't need to define yourself with a label. If you like boys and flowery dresses and also like racing cars and fishing on the weekends,  we don't need to label that.  If you feel more feminine than masculine and prefer to be thought of in that light fine, ,I don't care, happy to do so.  If you want me to say you're an actual BIOLOGICAL woman ... we're probably going to have an issue but i'm perfectly happy to accept that you see yourself as a female and treat you that way. 

Now go make me a sandwich     (KIDDING!!! I KID!!! OH for gods' sake, put the scissors down it was  a JOKE!!!!!!)

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, Nexii said:

Well the poll did say 1 in 10 parents would vehemently be against their child transitioning. But I think what was lost is this. Is the child consenting to being outed or not? I never got a clear picture of how they envisioned the process playing out. 

I don't think if a child wishes to go by the other gender that the school should be helping them do it in secret. At the same time if the child isn't yet ready to go to their parents about it, the school shouldn't be expected to out them. 

Well - i didn't see the poll but how you ask that question will greatly affect the answer.  If by 'transitioning' you mean allowing the kid to dress and affect an opposite-sex persona (i'm probaby not saying that right but you get my meaning) then many more will be ok with it, but for many 'transitioning' means actions that are irreversible or difficult to reverse such as surgery - and honestly i think a lot of parents even if they're fine with their kid being transgender are going to be reluctant to do that until the kid is of age to make more adult decisions for themselves.

[Nexii]

The third gender wasn't an absence of gender (usually, eunuchs were a thing). It was acknowledging that some people are more of a mix of the two. And it was distinct enough from male/female that societies all over the world constructed words to describe the phenomena. 

I'm just saying that because we don't have the long cultural history of this, it's more difficult to understand and accept. We haven't even agreed on a good word to describe it. I don't really even feel that 'transgender' really has the right vibe to it. It implies that one is going from one gender to another, which doesn't make sense from the perspective that gender is felt (and it is). I could say I've felt female since childhood, so what am I going from and to exactly?

Likewise 'transsexual' became offensive but it's probably more accurate to the reality. Changing one's sex as much as is medically possible through hormones and surgery. But not everyone in the 'mix' gender goes this far, so it is too narrow. 

[Nexii]

13 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well - i didn't see the poll but how you ask that question will greatly affect the answer.  If by 'transitioning' you mean allowing the kid to dress and affect an opposite-sex persona (i'm probaby not saying that right but you get my meaning) then many more will be ok with it, but for many 'transitioning' means actions that are irreversible or difficult to reverse such as surgery - and honestly i think a lot of parents even if they're fine with their kid being transgender are going to be reluctant to do that until the kid is of age to make more adult decisions for themselves.

It was about 35% for medical transition, 80% for social transition

It's all here https://angusreid.org/canada-culture-wars-gender-and-trans-issues/

 

 

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, Nexii said:

The third gender wasn't an absence of gender (usually, eunuchs were a thing). It was acknowledging that some people are more of a mix of the two.

 

Then it's still two genders.   QED

 

Quote

And it was distinct enough from male/female that societies all over the world constructed words to describe the phenomena. 

That is just another way of saying they had a word to call people 'deviant'.  "Not normal".  "Atypical". Weird, strange what ever. All they're acknowledging is there's a range that's considered to be normal and some people fall outside that range.

And that's true of every element of humanity. Strength, intelligence, dexterity, height etc etc  There's an accepted norm and then there's the 'outliers'.  So it's not another gender. They didn't have 'three' genders. They had normal female, normal male, and this guy who's weird.  And that just means his 'male-y female-y mix is outside the perceived norm ,

Just like there's giants and dwarfs and geniuses and re-tards and muscleheads etc etc etc.  When those differences are positive (unusual fighting/hunting skills for eg) then we say that person is "very skilled". When they're less useful we call them 'weird'. 

If its of interest - i have a great deal of experience with being 'outside society's norms'. My 'weirdness' is not gender related but trust me, when i was young it was far more 'looked down on' than being trans is today and every bit as challenging to deal with, and very isolating.  Today things are different and i long ago learned how to deal with it but i do have empathy for those outside the 'window'.

But -  it's still just a spectrum.  Gender is a spectrum that runs between male and female and can be 'strong ' or 'weak' in it's presentation and when it's outside of a norm we come up with a name that's just a nice way of saying 'weird'.

 

 

 

[Moonbox]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:04 AM, I am Groot said:

Only from the perspective of the Left.

Generally, when the Left protests the Right ignores them. When the Right protests the Left gets bug-eyed furious and comes out to scream insults and obscenities at them.

Yeah man...totally.  The right never complains about protests.  ?

I've never seen anyone whinging about tree huggers, Green Peace, BLM etc.  

"...but but the Right doesn't disturb the peace when they protest (or I justify it when they do, because I agree with them) and it's always the LEFT that causes problems."

Real great take there Groot.  ?

[CdnFox]

8 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Yeah man...totally.  The right never complains about protests.  ?

I've never seen anyone whinging about tree huggers, Green Peace, BLM etc.  "

How many counter protests do you see from the right? That was what he said,  you're rather obviously willfully misinterpreting that.

And it's true - by and large when the left protests the right ignores it and lets them protest.  When the right protests the left comes out and basically protests their right to protest.

Sure i'm sure i could find a right wing protest no counter protesters showed up to and i'm sure i could find right wing counter protests especially more recently in history but on the whole that's how it goes - the left hates that the right has the right to protest.

Just more cancel crap from the left

[Nexii]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

If its of interest - i have a great deal of experience with being 'outside society's norms'. My 'weirdness' is not gender related but trust me, when i was young it was far more 'looked down on' than being trans is today and every bit as challenging to deal with, and very isolating.  Today things are different and i long ago learned how to deal with it but i do have empathy for those outside the 'window'.

Yep and being trans back then was worse by another order yet. You could be out and gay if you were popular enough. Most were not. I remember one guy who was out in high school, and no girls who were.

Trans understanding still has a really long way to go. We've got tolerance which is a world of difference sure. But whew, a lot of the comments on NP and on here really feel like talking points from Stone Age people. 

Ironically, I'd say most of those far down the trans spectrum like myself are actually more center to center-right politically. The core of feeling trans comes down to the desire to be a traditional, stereotypical female and to have a female body. It doesn't come from the liberal 'social' explanations like it being more accepted to date guys, or to be emotional, or have female interests or be in a female-dominated career. You have to fundamentally feel that females and males are different for it to matter to you. That in essence is a conservative belief. However, changing one's self that dramatically is not something that conservatives really get with, because to them radical change is a scary thing.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Nexii

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Yeah man...totally.  The right never complains about protests.  ?

I've never seen anyone whinging about tree huggers, Green Peace, BLM etc.  

"...but but the Right doesn't disturb the peace when they protest (or I justify it when they do, because I agree with them) and it's always the LEFT that causes problems."

Real great take there Groot.  ?

I like how you twisted that around from "the right doesn't show up en masse to disrupt and scream abuse at the left" when they demonstrate or have some kind of speaker to "The right doesn't whinge".

Can't remember seeing a lot of right-wing counter-protests that compare to the rabid, hate-inspired throngs that show up from the Left whenever the right does or says something they don't like.

 

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, Nexii said:

Yes, I don't disagree there. And the hard left is not helping to achieve broader acceptance and tolerance. Neither is the hard right which has settled in with the CPC... this is sort of my worry here. The big tent does include a lot of people who maybe aren't hateful but have really strong opinions about something they don't understand at all. 

The 'hard right' such as they are, have settled in with the PPC.

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

The 'hard right' such as they are, have settled in with the PPC.

yeah - that kind of worked out for us  

[Nexii]

Weird times indeed when the Conservative party is more centrist than the Liberal party.

[CdnFox]

16 minutes ago, Nexii said:

Weird times indeed when the Conservative party is more centrist than the Liberal party.

Canadian politics - never dull  

[Moonbox]

16 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Can't remember seeing a lot of right-wing counter-protests that compare to the rabid, hate-inspired throngs that show up from the Left whenever the right does or says something they don't like.

Uh huh, uh huh.  January 6th was a deep-state conspiracy and the MAGA cult is totally reasonable and never gets out of hand.  ?

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Uh huh, uh huh.  January 6th was a deep-state conspiracy and the MAGA cult is totally reasonable and never gets out of hand.  ?

Oh, brother. You Americans just can't ever seem to remember that Canada is a separate country, can you?

And by the way, bringing that up has nothing to do with what I said. It wasn't exactly a counter-protest, now was it?

[SpankyMcFarland]

People get so excited about this topic. Is one of the fears here that kids are going to be ‘turned gay’ or something? That’s unlikely.