The Truth On Residential Schools Is Suppressed

[ExFlyer]

25 minutes ago, herbie said:

The whole issue is that they died at the schools and were buried without being returned to their homes, without proper markings and no record of who, when or why. Yes, mostly from TB, polio, etc. That some died of abuse, infanticide or neglect is highly probable due to the sheer volume of stories of survivors from all over Canada.

The AFN has since apologized for referring to 'mass graves', and yes I heard some native speakers refer to them as that in the heat of the moment.
The forcible abductions, the physical, mental and sexual abuse, the intent to stamp out their culture did happen, it is part of admitted and proven historical fact and a shame on our country.

It is entirely shameful to insist that as there hasn't been absolute CSI evidence of outright murder and mass burial "proves" that none of it ever happened. Only an utter bigot would conclude so. To use such logic it would follow that as they didn't raise the Arizona and recover the bodies, Pearl Harbour never really happened. That not recovering the dead from that imploded mini sub for 'proof' was due to the backward, savage respect for the dead beliefs of 'the white man'.
 

The fact of the matter is that there is no proof of claims and now they indigenous themselves are backing away from their own accusations.

I am not saying what you accuse did not happen but you or anyone does not have any proof. No court would accept your conjecture.

Your analogy about the Arizona is complete without merit. They did in fact go down and find many bodies. They chose to make it a memorial and leave it as is.

The mini sub, presuming you are talking about the recent incident, could not be recovered. It imploded and the pieces are too small and too deep and the bodies became fish food.

If you are going to make an argument, make on without your emotional slant..

 

[herbie]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

Your analogy about the Arizona is complete without merit. They did in fact go down and find many bodies. They chose to make it a memorial and leave it as is.

Just as in Kamloops. The fact the govt hasn't even offered a memorial to the Tk'emlups is not right. Bless the ground and leave them be. Exactly as in my Arizona comparison.
The truth remains that the lack of exact proof somewhere doesn't disprove the claims everywhere. I mean FFS if there are innumerous claims bodies were buried on residential school grounds, and ground disturbances have been found in many, and the bodies are missing, does that mean they were beamed away by aliens? Just to deny any that's where they are and any culpability? Occam's Razor...

My God man, it's a fact admitted by govt, the school, the local Band, the museum and newspaper articles of the time that two little boys froze to death trying to escape abuse at the old school here and walk across the lake to get back home. How is one supposed to react when someone posts an inflammatory headline from a distant source that states the excavations at one schoolyard was about the most exaggerated and politically inflammatory claims of the few and disproves the typical, believable sworn statements of the many everywhere else?

[WestCanMan]

52 minutes ago, herbie said:

The fact the govt hasn't even offered a memorial to the Tk'emlups is not right.

They're the ones who "confirmed that 215 bodies were discovered in a mass grave". Our entire country was labelled a bunch of genocidal racists for over a year because of that.

Here's their memorial:

Edited September 8, 2023 by WestCanMan

[ExFlyer]

14 hours ago, herbie said:

Just as in Kamloops. The fact the govt hasn't even offered a memorial to the Tk'emlups is not right. Bless the ground and leave them be. Exactly as in my Arizona comparison.
The truth remains that the lack of exact proof somewhere doesn't disprove the claims everywhere. I mean FFS if there are innumerous claims bodies were buried on residential school grounds, and ground disturbances have been found in many, and the bodies are missing, does that mean they were beamed away by aliens? Just to deny any that's where they are and any culpability? Occam's Razor...

My God man, it's a fact admitted by govt, the school, the local Band, the museum and newspaper articles of the time that two little boys froze to death trying to escape abuse at the old school here and walk across the lake to get back home. How is one supposed to react when someone posts an inflammatory headline from a distant source that states the excavations at one schoolyard was about the most exaggerated and politically inflammatory claims of the few and disproves the typical, believable sworn statements of the many everywhere else?

A memorial for what? There are no bodies.

I posted the link where the indigenous themselves are blaming the media for the claims. They are absolving themselves form the body count.

Your Arizona comparison is false. In the case of the Arizona, There were bodies and hence, a Memorial was dedicated.

FFS, read the article. The indigenous nor anyone else have never found any bodies...none, zero, zip, 0.  A "ground disturbance" is not a body. FFS, "beamed away by aliens"??? Man, are you ever tryigfn to make something of nothing LOL.

I deny because there is no proof of mass graves or any graves in fact. Prove it otherwise.

The fact is, there is lack of proof at all sites.  Even the indigenous themselves have come to that conclusion.

Show me the article and proof. Also, if the boys ran away and died on a frozen lake, it is kinda hard to prove and makes it only a "story".

How is one supposed to react? One is supposed to react to proof, verification and not stories. The indigenous have retracted and blame media now.

You are on a very small bandwagon (which is getting smaller) and unless you can offer substantial proof, you are are spreading false information.

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

Indigenous perspectives vary.  Any cases of abuse are tragic and must be recognized.  No doubt there were abuses.  Unfortunately there was a lot of behaviour in all schools, including non-Indigenous, that we would call abuse by today’s standards.  My own non-Indigenous mother has stories.  The loss of culture is sad but typical for all less dominant cultural groups everywhere many decades ago.  The separation from parents is unavoidable when it’s unaffordable to build schools in small communities and kids must live away for education. However, free education was and remains highly valued. The settler cultures were the ones providing it.  It’s a bittersweet tale of gains and losses.  There was no genocide and no political figures advocating for it.  The debate was around preservation versus assimilation, trying to maintain a separate society with harsher living conditions versus providing tools to be successful in modern society, providing subsidies versus letting people fend for themselves.

More people are coming than ever before and culture continues to shift in often unsettling ways.  The groups that were already here feel somewhat threatened and debates about what’s worth preserving continue.  Our housing crisis for young Canadians and our displacement of traditional family values in the culture wars are yet more examples.

Many of our problems are not the result of big oppressive schemes but policies that are imperfect or poorly implemented.  Overcrowding and tuberculosis took many lives.  Was it genocide?  It was about limited funding, ignorance, and misplaced priorities probably more than anything else. Did racism and bias, unconscious or otherwise, play a role?  Sure, it almost always does, and I don’t think dominant groups ever fully shed their blind spots. Cancel culture is just another iteration.

Give people opportunities and self determination and great things happen, but having different rules and privileges for different ethnic groups is a recipe for resentment and moral hazards.  This is ancient wisdom, found in the myths/stories of almost all societies.

We can try to right the wrongs of the past but the people of today didn’t cause the problems of the past and shouldn’t be held ransom for them.  Deal with individual claims through the courts in reasonable ways, stop blaming groups, take responsibility for your own actions, and achieve what you can.  It’s a human thing.  

Edited September 9, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[herbie]

6 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

A memorial for what? There are no bodies.

How do you know that?

[ExFlyer]

16 hours ago, herbie said:

How do you know that?

Herbie, how do I know that?  Herbie the question really is....where are the bodies?

As I have mentioned and inked, even the indigenous are disengaging themselves from that narrative and are blaming media for making the claims of bodies.

It seems to  me Herbie, you are one that is having difficulty realizing there may have been gross over exaggeration of the entire issue.

Edited September 10, 2023 by ExFlyer

[BeaverFever]

It’s been known for generations that children died at those schools. Many of the deaths were documented at the time and the records still exist today. Many others simply never returned home.  There are over 4,000 registered deaths at residential schools despite their only being partial records from the 150+ years they were in operation 
 

Stop trying to whitewash history just because you think it makes ”our side” look bad.  Everyone’s ancestors did horrible things no matter what “race” or nationality they claim to be so let’s stop living in denial  and move forward. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by BeaverFever

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, BeaverFever said:

It’s been known for generations that children died at those schools. Many of the deaths were documented at the time and the records still exist today. Many others simply never returned home.  
 

 

Everyone was documennted or returned home.  They didn't just randomly lose children.

Quit trying to re-write history to invent tragedy where none existed.

[BeaverFever]

13 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Everyone was documennted or returned home.  They didn't just randomly lose children.

Quit trying to re-write history to invent tragedy where none existed.

Total BS. They did lose children. Some died escaping and in some the school just said “oh they probably ran off” or they said nothing at all and the family couldn’t get answers. Especially in the early says when FN were not even allowed to leave the reserve without permission from the Indian agent and as a practical matter couldn’t even communicate directly with anyone except through the agent.
 

Did you know that it was illegal for FN people to hire a lawyer prior to 1951 and they did not have the right to vote until 1960?  So you expect me to believe that people with no legal rights, who were forbidden from leaving their remote communities, often communities where there were limited methods of communication available in the first place, and who had no legal protections or means of any recourse under the law whatsoever were given first class red carpet treatment by the people who had absolute life and death control over them?  That would be a first in human history. Its not how humans work. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by BeaverFever

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Total BS. They did lose children. Some died escaping and in some the school just said “oh they probably ran off” or they said nothing at all and the family couldn’t get answers.

Bullshit. First off - the two that died escaping were in fact well documented.  as to the rest, who? Name names. Which children vanished and were unaccounted for and the schools said they 'just ran off' and there's no documentation at all.  Lets hear the details of these mythical kids - you must have dozens and dozens as you make it sound like a pretty regular event.  Which families were told that no information about their child would be given.

Complete and utter bullshit on your part.  Hell most of the kids went home for the summers.

There are not massive amounts of unaccounted for children at all. They were in fact accounted for. Period.

But what can we expect from the people who came up with 'unmarked mass graves'.

[Zeitgeist]

12 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Total BS. They did lose children. Some died escaping and in some the school just said “oh they probably ran off” or they said nothing at all and the family couldn’t get answers. Especially in the early says when FN were not even allowed to leave the reserve without permission from the Indian agent and as a practical matter couldn’t even communicate directly with anyone except through the agent.
 

Did you know that it was illegal for FN people to hire a lawyer prior to 1951 and they did not have the right to vote until 1960?  So you expect me to believe that people with no legal rights, who were forbidden from leaving their remote communities, often communities where there were limited methods of communication available in the first place, and who had no legal protections or means of any recourse under the law whatsoever were given first class red carpet treatment by the people who had absolute life and death control over them?  That would be a first in human history. It’s not how humans work. 

Natives could leave reservations.  Attending school was a choice.  I thought it was otherwise, and I’m sure there were sketchy practices in some areas.  The Indian Agent is indeed a problem.  It shouldn’t be whitewashed.

I agree that not having a vote was bad, but it goes hand in hand with the idea of being taken care of and not having to contribute any taxes (money) towards education, health, and property.  It also goes with having “Indian status” that allows one to get these freebies, including some big ticket items like higher education.

Not only can we say the American slogan, no taxation without representation; we can also say, no representation without taxation, because services require labour and have a cost, so if you want a vote, you should pay taxes.

We have this Indian Act mess, but many Indigenous want to keep it.  Maybe local bands can elect to opt out.  If the decisions to make changes don’t come from natives, then we’ll always stand accused of oppression.  However, if the demand is for more money, taxpayers have a right to question.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[BeaverFever]

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Bullshit. First off - the two that died escaping were in fact well documented.  as to the rest, who? Name names. Which children vanished and were unaccounted for and the schools said they 'just ran off' and there's no documentation at all.  Lets hear the details of these mythical kids - you must have dozens and dozens as you make it sound like a pretty regular event.  Which families were told that no information about their child would be given.

Complete and utter bullshit on your part.  Hell most of the kids went home for the summers.

There are not massive amounts of unaccounted for children at all. They were in fact accounted for. Period.

But what can we expect from the people who came up with 'unmarked mass graves'.

LMAO the TWO who died escaping?  Residential schools operated  for 100 years and you think there’s only 2. The TRC identified 33 known and confirmed cases of runaway deaths just from the very limited records they are able to discover after so many decades  Many/most  of these kids couldn’t afford to go home for the summer especially in the 1800s and early 1900s  Don’t mix up the 1980s with the 1880s  

Next you are implying that the thousands of known and documented deaths of kids are ok since they were documented. Note that this is already a reversal of your original assertion that there were not thousands of deaths.  In some cases government health records recorded TB death tolls of 25% of the student body and in one case more than 60%. Malnourishment was so prevalent the federal government did nutritional experiments on the kids. And again the number of records that survived into the modern era is very limited. In many cases the schools kept no records or very minimal records and much of what was recorded was lost due to the passage of time. And yet the TRC still was able to catalogue more than 4,100 child deaths from those records and from reports of student deaths that occasionally appeared in local newspapers (when there was a notable event such as fire, a structural collapse or a communicable disease outbreak).  The TRC now estimates the death toll could be much higher. 

Second many of the deaths and on-site burials recorded by the school records themselves don’t even name the child or identify them by gender or community of origin or cause of death.   In addition some of the records that survived from some schools are ledgers that provide an “accounting” of kids in attendance: number enrolled, number graduated and number who died but yet actual death records from that school either don’t exist or only include some of the student deaths counted in the ledger.  The TRC found that about 1/3 of the child deaths found in school records were for unnamed children. There is known burial place for nearly half the deaths recorded in school records. Of the locations where the death is recorded, 2/3 list either “School” or “Sanatorium”   Half the records don’t list a cause of death  Many of the deaths were discovered in government or church records but were missing from the school’s own records  

It was official policy to bury the kids in a graveyard onsite given the cost and difficulty associated with transporting corpses long distances especially before the mid 20th century. Look it wasn’t a secret   If you could travel back in time and visit a school the headmaster would probably give you a tour and say “ that’s the cafeteria, that’s the chapel and that’s the graveyard where we bury kids who have been called to Heaven”.   In many if not most cases the graves were even marked at the time. There was no shame or secrecy about it back then.  People like you deny it TODAY because it doesn’t jive with our 21st century values and you feel the need to believe you are descended from a noble and angelic race that can do no wrong. But back then nobody would have batted an eyelash.  Child Graves at residential school sites have been found and confirmed by excavation before and as I said the discoveries announced to much media fanfare in 2021 were only news to people who were not paying attention previously  Here are a handful of examples of confirmed graves found in the past:

Battleford

Battleford, SK - 1883 -1914

In 1974, five students from the Department of Anthropology and Archaeology at the University of Saskatchewan excavated 72 graves at the  Battleford school  cemetery, constituting nearly all of the 74 children who died while attending the Battleford Indian Industrial School between 1883 and 1914. In 2019, the cemetery was designated Provincial Heritage Property by the Government of Saskatchewan.
 

Sacred Heart

Fort Providence, NT-1906 -1960

From 1992 to 1994, Albert Lafferty, a Métis resident of Fort Providence, led research into the old community cemetery, located near the site of the former  Sacred Heart Residential School . Lafferty identified 298 people buried at the site in unmarked graves, 161 of which were children from across the Dehcho who attended the Sacred Heart Residential School. In July 2021, Deh Gáh Got’ı̨ę First Nation confirmed that they would try to complete a further search of the former school grounds. 
 

Dunbow (St. Joseph’s)

High River, AB - 1884 -1922

During a flood in 1996, the caskets and remains of some of the 73 children known to have died while attending  Dunbow Industrial School  were exposed along the banks of the Highwood River. In May 2001, the remains of 34 children were identified and reburied at a site further from the river, following First Nations, Métis, and Christian traditions
 

Regina

Regina, SK - 1890-1910

Since 2012, the  Regina Indian Industrial School  Commemorative Association has identified 38 graves outside the Regina Indian Industrial School by using ground-penetrating radar.
 

Muscowequan

Lestock, SK  -  1889 -1997

Between 2018-2019, a team of the Muskowekwan First Nation, researchers from the University of Saskatchewan and the University of Albert have identified 35 unmarked graves on the  Muskowekwan Indian residential school  site. The Muskowekwan First Nation had plans to continue searching the area for more graves. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Natives could leave reservations.

The Pass system was in place from 1886 until it was phased out in the 1930s and 1940s.  During that time FN people needed a pass from am Indian agent to leave the Reserve.   In addition due to remoteness, lack of infrastructure and poverty on many reserves, travel was difficult if not impossible on many reserves. 

 

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Attending school was a choice.  I thought it was otherwise, and I’m sure there were sketchy practices in some areas

For a long time it was mandatory. For a ling time after that it was technically a “choice” but a choice with negative consequences for the family or the community. School survivors who were forcibly taken away to school by Police and Indian agents against the will of parents are still alive today. 
 

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

agree that not having a vote was bad, but it goes hand in hand with the idea of being taken care of and not having to contribute any taxes (money) towards education, health, and property.  It also goes with having “Indian status” that allows one to get these freebies, including some big ticket items like higher education.

Bullshit it doesn’t go hand in hand with anything in a democracy. White people who are on welfare or are unemployed are allowed to vote.  Also you exaggerate their “freebies”. What few services they receive from the government is of 3rd world quality and an embarrassment all on its own. 
 

 

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not only can we say the American slogan, no taxation without representation; we can also say, no representation without taxation, because services require labour and have a cost, so if you want a vote, you should pay taxes.

We have this Indian Act mess, but many Indigenous want to keep it.  Maybe local bands can elect to opt out.  If the decisions to make changes don’t come from natives, then we’ll always stand accused of oppression.  However, if the demand is for more money, taxpayers have a right to question.

Again that standard isn’t applied to white people individually or to white towns and provinces where public services cost more than the tax revenue those particular places they generate. Why apply it only FN people?

[ExFlyer]

On 9/9/2023 at 3:18 PM, herbie said:

How do you know that?

Seriously??/

Show me where they have actually found any bodies and exhumed them.

Forget the exhumation, show me evidence they have found any "bodies or bones.

You are trying very hard to prove something yet unable to. You are perpetuating, what up till now is a myth. Even the indigenous themselves have backed off and said it is media making the claims.

[Zeitgeist]

36 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

The Pass system was in place from 1886 until it was phased out in the 1930s and 1940s.  During that time FN people needed a pass from am Indian agent to leave the Reserve.   In addition due to remoteness, lack of infrastructure and poverty on many reserves, travel was difficult if not impossible on many reserves. 

 

For a long time it was mandatory. For a ling time after that it was technically a “choice” but a choice with negative consequences for the family or the community. School survivors who were forcibly taken away to school by Police and Indian agents against the will of parents are still alive today. 
 

Bullshit it doesn’t go hand in hand with anything in a democracy. White people who are on welfare or are unemployed are allowed to vote.  Also you exaggerate their “freebies”. What few services they receive from the government is of 3rd world quality and an embarrassment all on its own. 
 

 

Again that standard isn’t applied to white people individually or to white towns and provinces where public services cost more than the tax revenue those particular places they generate. Why apply it only FN people?

Indigenous status don’t pay taxes.  Government services for Indigenous are paid by non-Indigenous.  Any increase in funding comes from taxpayers.  Of course the incentive for Indigenous voters is to vote for whatever party offers the most funding.  Why are you referring to white people?  Last I checked all non-Indigenous races pay taxes.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

46 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

LMAO the TWO who died escaping?  Residential schools operated  for 100 years and you think there’s only 2. The TRC identified 33 known and confirmed cases of runaway deaths just from the very limited records they are able to discover

 

So - not undocumented.  As you had previously claimed.

Quote

Many/most  of these kids couldn’t afford to go home for the summer especially in the 1800s and early 1900s  Don’t mix up the 1980s with the 1880s  

But they were free to.  They weren't being held at the schools against their wills.

 

Quote

Next you are implying that the thousands of known and documented deaths of kids are ok since they were documented. Note that this is already a reversal of your original assertion that there were not thousands of deaths. 

I have never said in the slightest that there weren't thousands of deaths.   I never even commented on the number of deaths. Point to where i said that.

I said of the deaths the vast vast majority were from TB.  And that is true.  And that is true of the children of MANY people during those times.  Of the remaining - most of those were lost to Influenza.

a small handful remain that weren't one of those causes.  There sure aren't "thousands' of those.

 

Quote

Second many of the deaths and on-site burials recorded by the school records themselves don’t even name the child or identify them by gender or community of origin or cause of death.

They all mention cause of death and gender.  The rest is true, and is utterly terrible.  Simply writing that 5 boys and 3 girls died is not acceptable and is a travesty.

But that does not mean they were undocumented or somehow murdered.  It means the gov't left everything to the church and didn't establish acceptable standards and thats  bad - but not the same thing.

 

Quote

It was official policy to bury the kids in a graveyard onsite given the cost and difficulty associated with transporting corpses long distances especially before the mid 20th century. Look it wasn’t a secret   If you could travel back in time and visit a school the headmaster would probably give you a tour and say “ that’s the cafeteria, that’s the chapel and that’s the graveyard where we bury kids who have been called to Heaven”.   In many if not most cases the graves were even marked at the time. There was no shame or secrecy about it back then.

Exactly - in fact that was true even into the 60's. And many of those 'gravesites' were right along side the gavesites of everyone else in the area.

 

Quote

People like you deny it TODAY because it doesn’t jive with our 21st century values and you feel the need to believe you are descended from a noble and angelic race that can do no wrong.

People like YOU need to LIE about people like me because the truth doesn't fit your narrative.  I've never ever even once denied it - in fact if you go back in my posts i've said of course kids were buried there - what else were they going to do with TB bodies at the time, and it's a church as much as  a school. You bury people at a church. OTHER people were buried there in many cases.

I've never remotely hinted that there aren't kids buried at the schools. Sorry i don't fit your echo chamber.

Quote

But back then nobody would have batted an eyelash.  Child Graves at residential school sites have been found and confirmed by excavation before and as I said the discoveries announced to much media fanfare in 2021 were only news to people who were not paying attention previously 

It did not come as news to me, nor did i bat an eyelash. But - it is one thing to say 'kids were buried at the schools'.   Of course they were. The records are crystal clear, anyone knew anything about it knew that, it makes sense - what else were they going to do.

It's another thing altogether to say "hey - WE JUST DISCOVERED THIS PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN THING WE'VE ALWAYS SUSPECTED AND THERE"S EXACTLY 211 BODIES WHICH IS MORE THAN THE DOCUMENTATION SAYS".

Which is definitely the message the first nations and media put out.  They knew it was a grave site - that's how they knew where to scan.  THey have no idea how many actual graves there are - the radar doesn't see 'skeletons'.  And the kids were documented.

 

What they did - and what you are trying to do - is take a simple fact of life that as you say 'nobody batted an eye at' for over a century and turn it into a 'suddenly discovered tragedy' where children were apparently abducted at gun point, sexually tortured to death, buried without any regard and hidden from all records.

That's every bit as disgusting as what the preists did. You should be ashamed of yourself. 

 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Bullshit it doesn’t go hand in hand with anything in a democracy. White people who are on welfare or are unemployed are allowed to vote.  

It does go hand in hand with something.  Insurrection.  The very thing that the people in the states say trump should be denied the right to run because of.

A little bit of history i notice you skipped - John A already had a motion prepared to give all first natons people the right to vote.  THen the Riel rebellion happened. He cancelled the plan because you don't give the vote to armed rebels and who knew what the rest of the western tribes were thinking.

But a short time later he did give it to easterners.  And if you were a first nations  and you served in teh military - then you got the right to vote as well.

Oooopsie - just kind of 'skipped over' the whole revolution thing did we?

Like all of your comments - it's a half truth at best. Lots of first nations could vote anyway and the only reason it wasn't all was because of an armed and bloody war the first nations themselves started.

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Why are you referring to white people?  Last I checked all non-Indigenous races pay taxes.

Because the left and the first nations fully support racism if it's not directed against first nations people.  Only whitey can be racist, stupid settlers.

[herbie]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

You are trying very hard to prove something yet unable to.

Look who's talking. You're claiming that as they haven't or won't defile what to them is sacred grounds, only stories, there can't be any burials.
Like I said, by your own rules, there are no bodies in the USS Arizona as the only 'proof' is other people's stories.

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, herbie said:

Look who's talking. You're claiming that as they haven't or won't defile what to them is sacred grounds, only stories, there can't be any burials.
Like I said, by your own rules, there are no bodies in the USS Arizona as the only 'proof' is other people's stories.

If there are suspected undocumented burials, it makes sense to at least confirm that they’re actual burial sites. The question of whether or how many of these, if confirmed as remains, are Indigenous would also have to be answered, as well as the question of cause of death. These aren’t unimportant details; they’re the entire basis of your unsubstantiated narrative.  I say again, any death by neglect or worse is a tragedy and must be recognized. You can’t use conjecture, however, as the basis for accusations of mistreatment, certainly not murder, and absolutely not genocide. To do so is incendiary, reckless, divisive, and disrespectful to any tragic victims of whom we are certain.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[ExFlyer]

16 hours ago, herbie said:

Look who's talking. You're claiming that as they haven't or won't defile what to them is sacred grounds, only stories, there can't be any burials.
Like I said, by your own rules, there are no bodies in the USS Arizona as the only 'proof' is other people's stories.

Nope, I only ask for proof and no amount of round the circle talk you are using, you have no proof.

I never once said there are no bodies on the USS Arizona. Pay attention to what is being said to you. Your losing arguments are burying you LOL

"Of the 1,177 USS Arizona sailors and Marines killed at Pearl Harbor, more than 900 could not be recovered and remain entombed on the ship, " https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pearl-harbor-veteran-s-interment-be-last-sunken-arizona-n1096911

[BeaverFever]

On 9/11/2023 at 2:05 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Indigenous status don’t pay taxes.  Government services for Indigenous are paid by non-Indigenous.  Any increase in funding comes from taxpayers.  Of course the incentive for Indigenous voters is to vote for whatever party offers the most funding.  Why are you referring to white people?  Last I checked all non-Indigenous races pay taxes.

To be fully accurate they don’t pay taxes on income generated on the Reserve.  Off-Reserve income is fully taxable.  The question remains:  non-indigenous individuals can vote and receive public services without paying taxes and non-indigenous communities receive public funding disproportionate to their tax contributions. Most provinces receive equalization payments from the federal government   So why a different standard for indigenous peoples?

[WestCanMan]

6 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

To be fully accurate they don’t pay taxes on income generated on the Reserve.  Off-Reserve income is fully taxable.  

Are you sure?

I thought that their requirement to pay taxes was based on whether they lived on the res or not. IE, live on res and pay no income taxes regardless of where you work, or live off res and pay income taxes. 

[BeaverFever]

On 9/11/2023 at 2:34 PM, CdnFox said:

So - not undocumented.  As you had previously claimed.

I addressed the undocumented part further in my post. 
 

On 9/11/2023 at 2:34 PM, CdnFox said:

But they were free to.  They weren't being held at the schools against their wills.

You’re missing the forest for the trees. It was the law that they must attend. Children who didn’t attend or who didn’t return from leave were taken by force. The school had full authority to deny a child leave over holidays, thats assuming they even had the means to return yin the first place. Your “so they could leave if they wanted to” comment is unfair and disingenuous,  the boarding schools were deliberately located far away from Reserves for the exact purpose of making travel difficult. They did not want kids returning home they wanted to sever them from their culture and wanted graduates moving on to cities towns and farms to work rather than returning home. 
 

On 9/11/2023 at 2:34 PM, CdnFox said:

I said of the deaths the vast vast majority were from TB.  And that is true.  And that is true of the children of MANY people during those times.  Of the remaining - most of those were lost to Influenza.

a small handful remain that weren't one of those causes.  There sure aren't "thousands' of those.

Yea TB was the biggest killer but that’s no excuse. Their death rates were 2x-5x higher than non-indigenous schools or the general population depending on the decade. They lived in cramped unsanitary conditions with poor nutrition poor ventilation and the infected were not quarantined from the others kids. This is well documented even by Indian agents and government doctors who wrote scathing criticisms of the conditions these kids were kept in. To top it all off the kids were exposed to it while they were in those places against their families will. 
 

On 9/11/2023 at 2:34 PM, CdnFox said:

They all mention cause of death and gender.

That’s not true. Of the scant death records the TRC could find, 32% did not have child’s name,  23% did not have child’s gender,  49% did not have child’s cause of death. You can read the TRC’s 2015 Report on Missing Children and Unmarked Burials here, with the above stats on page 8:
 

https://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2015/trc/IR4-9-4-2015-eng.pdf

 

On 9/11/2023 at 2:34 PM, CdnFox said:

But that does not mean they were undocumented or somehow murdered.  It means the gov't left everything to the church and didn't establish acceptable standards and thats  bad - but not the same thing.

 

Im sure murders were the minority. We know sexual and physical abuse was rampant and some places had extreme corporal punishment such as the homemade electric chair at St. Anne’s in Northern Ontario. I expect that in the 100+ years of operation at least SOME kids were murdered and or died from abuse but everyone recognizes these would be a small minority of death, not that it excuses anything.  Death and suicide from neglect and mistreatment is not acceptable either. Especially since they were taken there by force. 
 

On 9/11/2023 at 2:34 PM, CdnFox said:

Exactly - in fact that was true even into the 60's. And many of those 'gravesites' were right along side the gavesites of everyone else in the area.

Doesn’t matter. The kids shouldn’t have been there. They shouldn’t have died there. They shouldn’t have been buried there. Their graves shouldn’t have been demolished once the schools had no more use for them. These things didn’t happen to non-indigenous people. 
 

On 9/11/2023 at 2:34 PM, CdnFox said:

It did not come as news to me, nor did i bat an eyelash. But - it is one thing to say 'kids were buried at the schools'.   Of course they were. The records are crystal clear, anyone knew anything about it knew that, it makes sense - what else were they going to do.

It's another thing altogether to say "hey - WE JUST DISCOVERED THIS PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN THING WE'VE ALWAYS SUSPECTED AND THERE"S EXACTLY 211 BODIES WHICH IS MORE THAN THE DOCUMENTATION SAYS".

Which is definitely the message the first nations and media put out.  They knew it was a grave site - that's how they knew where to scan.  THey have no idea how many actual graves there are - the radar doesn't see 'skeletons'.  And the kids were documented.

This is all a false narrative. The TRCs report on Missing and Unmarked Burials is almost 10 years old and the calls to action which were unanswered for years include government assistance in searching suspected unmarked grave sites and release if government archives relating to missing and deceased children.

 

On 9/11/2023 at 2:34 PM, CdnFox said:

What they did - and what you are trying to do - is take a simple fact of life that as you say 'nobody batted an eye at' for over a century and turn it into a 'suddenly discovered tragedy' where children were apparently abducted at gun point, sexually tortured to death, buried without any regard and hidden from all records.

That's every bit as disgusting as what the preists did. You should be ashamed of yourself. 

As above: a false narrative BY YOU of what has been said. Armed Police officers literally came to people’s houses and took kids out of the arms of crying mothers. Other kids were picked up by police or Indian agents from the side of the road while out for a bike ride or walking to a friends house and put in transit to a school without even seeing their family. That may not quite be “abducted at gunpoint” but it’s pretty close  

 

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

Are you sure?

I thought that their requirement to pay taxes was based on whether they lived on the res or not. IE, live on res and pay no income taxes regardless of where you work, or live off res and pay income taxes. 

Yep:

 

First Nations pay more tax than you think

Aleksandra Sagan - CBC News 

Fewer than half of all aboriginal people qualify for tax exemptions - and even less can actually use them

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.2971040
 

 

4 FACTS ABOUT INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AND TAXES

https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/4-facts-about-indigenous-people-and-taxes#:~:text=Status Indians do pay income,par with non-Indigenous taxpayers.

Information on the tax exemption under section 87 of the Indian Act

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/indigenous-peoples/information-indians.html
 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by BeaverFever