Canada can't compete in NATO air exercise because none of our aircraft can fly

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

For whatever reason liberal supporters will tolerate any amount of corruption and pockting of cash as a rule.

So to will conservative supporters, like ordering aircraft, Conservative governments have had plenty of opportunities to do something about secrecy and corruption. 

5 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Canadians are generally better about it than the us so far - but the libs get away with murder and it's ony a matter of time till the other parties say "why the hell are we bothering to play by the rules then?"

See? You're apologizing for it already.

I've heard it all before.  You're in good company.

[blackbird]

"In January 2018, the Canadian Armed Forces sent a delegation to China to observe winter training conducted by the People’s Liberation Army.

In February 2018, the People’s Liberation Army sent a delegation to Canada to observe winter survival training conducted by the Canadian Armed Forces.

Defence Attaché

The Canadian Armed Forces maintain a Defence Attaché at the Canadian embassy in Beijing, China, as part of a longstanding policy of fostering defence relations with foreign militaries around the world."      from the government website

Military Exercises with the China’s People’s Liberation Army - Canada.ca

Then there was the Chinese scientists that were allowed to work in the Winnipeg virology lab and their sudden removal by the RCMP.  Trudeau would not give the opposition parties the documents related to this.  

Canada's involvement with China has been a joke on the world stage.  It is shameful.  No wonder Canada cannot be trusted.  Canadians that voted for Trudeau and Liberals and NDP should be ashamed of themselves.  Past conservative governments have not done much better and some sucked up China.

Edited June 15, 2023 by blackbird

[Iceni warrior]

6 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada has the 6th largest defence budget in NATO already

quite clearly the money is not spent on equipment

so where does it all go then ?

no country spends more to get less

Too much spent on beef Wellington and foie gras for the troops.

 

[CdnFox]

43 minutes ago, eyeball said:

So to will conservative supporters, like ordering aircraft, Conservative governments have had plenty of opportunities to do something about secrecy and corruption.

Nope, sorry.  Canada's reputation for non corruption went up during the CPC's years and down radically during the libs.  The Libs don't remove a minister for illegally using her office for gain. The CPC threw out a minister for ordering orange juice.

And the CPC did order planes.  they specifically ordered teh ones we'll be buying now. The libs cancelled that and then ordered a competition (which had lots of opportunity for bribes) and then eventually after about a decade... chose the same plane . And now we'll have to wait and see if they actually come through and buy them when the time comes.

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Nope, sorry.  Canada's reputation for non corruption went up during the CPC's years and down radically during the libs.

Meaning the Conservative effort to tackle corruption failed.  I suspect their hearts really weren't in it.

What politicians need to do is pledge to wear cameras like police do when they're at work, and for much the same reason. Force the competition to campaign against that and sell the public on the need for secrecy.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Meaning the Conservative effort to tackle corruption failed. 

Meaning it succeeded.  When your reputation for no corruption goes up, thats a good thing And it went up a lot.

 

Quote

What politicians need to do is pledge to wear cameras like police do when they're at work, and for much the same reason. Force the competition to campaign against that and sell the public on the need for secrecy

Well that's just silly of course. It's not like they could wear them 24 7 and easy to give an aide instructions while it's not on

There's ways to minimize corruption but the VERY first step is the voters have to be intolerant of it.  It wasn't we didn't know justin was corrupt after all. Everyone knew. Its that the voters refused to punish the libs for it. .

[eyeball]

24 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well that's just silly of course.

Yeah we heard the same thing when people started suggesting cops wear cameras. We laughed when DFO made us put cameras on our boats.

Not for long though, especially given how fisheries is still managed. We suggested the best place for cameras if you want to save fish are DFO offices in Ottawa. Speaking of which, recall how Dominic LeBlanc was caught issuing a fishing licence and quota to a family member.

 

[Dougie93]

3 hours ago, Iceni warrior said:

Too much spent on beef Wellington and foie gras for the troops.

 

more like steak & lobster night in Canader

but literally, Canada disappears $26 billion into a black hole every year at DND

that's just three billion less than Italy spends, Italy which is armed to the teeth

mere corruption and incompetence cannot explain the state of the Canadian military

again, I would suppose deliberate sabotage;  ideologically motivated

 

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, Aristides said:

They are expensive but not more expensive than aircraft carriers.

The British paid about US$4b each for their new carriers.

Cost of Canada's new frigates as of last year is C$5.6b each

 

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

Is it just me or does everyone seem to be as universally incompetent when it comes to doing anything about corruption?

Corrupt backs being scratched by others who are corrupt.

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Good.  We should spend the money helping our citizens here at home.  What do you think Jesus would rather spend on….  military?  Or helping children in poverty?

The old butter and guns argument suggests those with lots of butter but no guns soon lose their butter to those with lots of guns and not enough butter.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, I am Groot said:

Corrupt backs being scratched by others who are corrupt.

Let me guess, the thought of politicians wearing cameras makes you lol.

Am I right?

[I am Groot]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Let me guess, the thought of politicians wearing cameras makes you lol.

Am I right?

It's a stupid, unworkable idea. Even cops don't have them turned on all the time, only when they think they should. And cops have uniforms. Cops have to file official reports on everything they do. Cops have to be questioned by defense lawyers on every arrest. 

Politicians don't wear uniforms, and their backroom deals are made by their aides discussing things obliquely with anonymous, faceless lobbyists in restaurants and bars. I don't think anyone really comes out and bluntly says to a politician, "If you do this for me I will give you that". 

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Cost of Canada's new frigates as of last year is C$5.6b each

as if those ships are ever going to be built ?

get real

the CSC program will inevitably collapse under its own weight

Canada will sail the FFH-330's until they completely rust out

then Canada will simply not replace them n the end

the RCN will end up being 6 AOPS and nothing else

[Dougie93]

the only significant platform that Canada could actually purchase is the F-35

reason being, the F-35 program is turnkey

the program is entirely run by America, to include training & logistics

Canada cannot run programs for itself anymore

yet F-35 is airpower in a box, everything included in the price

Canada pays the fee, and provides the pilot candidates to the American program, nothing else is required

[Aristides]

39 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

The British paid about US$4b each for their new carriers.

Cost of Canada's new frigates as of last year is C$5.6b each

 

Corrupt backs being scratched by others who are corrupt.

The final tally for HMS Queen Elizabeth was 6.2 billion Pounds or just under 8 billion USD. You can add almost another 5 billion or so for the cost of the 36 F-35B’s and 14 helos it can carry.

[eyeball]

7 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

It's a stupid, unworkable idea.

Got any better ideas?

Why wouldn't it work on the volunteer basis I mentioned?

[I am Groot]

12 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Got any better ideas?

Why wouldn't it work on the volunteer basis I mentioned?

Bad people don't volunteer. 

We can start with putting firm deadlines and dates into contracts, as well as penalties for failure. Such things are routine in commercial contracts. More money to the AGs office, and to the Information Commissioner, along with new rules on opening government files to the public.

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

The final tally for HMS Queen Elizabeth was 6.2 billion Pounds or just under 8 billion USD. You can add almost another 5 billion or so for the cost of the 36 F-35B’s and 14 helos it can carry.

That tally included the aircraft.

[BeaverFever]

Yeah military woes notwithstanding the CAF said long ago there would be no CF-18 deployments in 2023 as the entire fleet is getting upgrades (not repairs) so they will have the same radar and latest generation missiles as the F-35

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canada-not-sending-fighter-jets-to-europe-next-year-as-air-force-rearms-regroups/wcm/7802ba68-3886-4787-83cb-1776c838323c/amp/

 

About the upgrades:

https://skiesmag.com/news/major-upgrades-canada-fleet-cf-188-hornets/?amp

 

But the larger point is the state of the military never should have gotten this bad in the first place. Unfortunately the Canadian public as a whole on the both the left and the right has supported underfunding the military for decades. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by BeaverFever

[I am Groot]

2 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

But the larger point is the state of the military never should have gotten this bad in the first place. Unfortunately the Canadian public as a whole on the both the left and the right has supported underfunding the military for decades. 

Not on the right. Conservative voters have always supported a properly funded military. The problem is the people in charge, who figure such voters have no alternative anyway (because they don't) so don't exactly rush to carry out their wishes.

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Yeah military woes notwithstanding the CAF said long ago there would be no CF-18 deployments in 2023 as the entire fleet is getting upgrades (not repairs) so they will have the same air-radar radar and latest generation missiles as the F-35

ah yes, Canada buying AN/APG-79V4 for the CF-18's

because Canada doesn't actually intend to buy F-35

Canada will keep flying the CF-18's into the 2040's

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Not on the right. Conservative voters have always supported a properly funded military. The problem is the people in charge, who figure such voters have no alternative anyway (because they don't) so don't exactly rush to carry out their wishes.

the so called Conservatives are outvoted two to one in Canada

 Canada itself is a left wing lunatic  institution

Canada hates America & Britain and loves China

so Canada must destroy its own military on behalf of Beijing

who knew ?

 

[BeaverFever]

9 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Not on the right. Conservative voters have always supported a properly funded military. The problem is the people in charge, who figure such voters have no alternative anyway (because they don't) so don't exactly rush to carry out their wishes.

Well they paid lip service to it but at the end of the day what they really wanted above all else was tax cuts. Tax cuts mean budget cuts and conservative voters never held the Harper government accountable for budget cuts 
 

Deep cuts to military mark reversal for Harper

 

The regular increases in defence spending that Stephen Harper promised to lift the Canadian military from a decade of neglect are over. For the first time, his government is not just slowing growth in military budgets but scaling them back with years of cuts.

It means that by 2014-15, $1.1-billion will be slashed from the roughly $20-billion defence budget – just over 5 per cent. In addition, the government will delay the purchase of $3.5-billion in equipment for seven years, allowing it to trim hundreds of millions of dollars more each year.

For Mr. Harper, a Prime Minister who has centred so much of his political persona around building a Canadian military that's not only able to deploy, but will, the budget marks a reversal. Defence budgets are now going down, and combined with a $1-billion cut to spending growth announced two years ago, the military faces years of scaling back.
 

The effect of the two rounds of budget trims amount to roughly a 10-per-cent cut from planned spending, more than $2-billion, said David Perry, a defence analyst with the CDA Institute. "This is going to have a really significant impact on their ability to deploy and conduct missions," he said.

The details of what will be cut were not revealed. The budget said the Department of National Defence will do things like streamline its contracting process and centralize its management of property and human resources, but it's not clear what other cuts will be made.

The amount the Defence Department has to trim would be equivalent to chopping the department's entire civilian staff of 29,000, Mr. Perry said. But he said he believes a big chunk will have to be come from what the military terms "readiness" – training to fly planes, operate ships, and conduct operations that prepare the troops to go on missions.

The cuts to the annual budget will get deeper in each of the next three years, starting with a $327-million reduction in the coming year and reaching $1.1-billion by 2014-15.

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The government is also backing off its target of increasing the size of the Canadian Forces to a regular force of 70,000 and 30,000 reserves, but the budget committed to maintaining the current, slightly smaller force of 68,000 regulars and 27,000 reserves.

Some savings will come from delaying $3.5-billion in capital spending that had been planned for the next seven years – the money used to buy planes, ships, tanks, trucks, and weapons. The government didn't identify what purchases it would delay, but will book savings of $500-million this year and $1.3-billion next year from pushing off purchases.

If those delayed purchases do go ahead later, the spending will have to be booked in budgets by future governments over a period of years – at a time when, according to the government's defence plans, Ottawa will also be paying for multibillion-dollar purchases of new fighters and ships that will take up big chunks of the defence budget.

Plans to buy the controversial F-35 fighter jets were not affected by the current budget, because costs from the purchase will not show up on government books until at least 2016. The budget said only that the government will buy an "affordable" replacement for the current CF-18 fighter fleet.

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In all, the defence budget for the rest of Mr. Harper's term will be billions less than the $21.2-billion spent last year. The cuts won't bring the defence budget back to the level it was at when Mr. Harper took office, Mr. Perry noted, but they will undo a significant part of the increases.

It's not clear, however, precisely how much that defence budget sum will be, because the government refused to provide a figure for the total defence budget in the coming year or future years affected by the budget.

Before the budget, the Defence Department reported in government estimates that it would spend $19.8-billion in the 2012-13 fiscal year, and a spokesman for Defence Minister Peter MacKay said that amount will now be reduced to $19.5-billion.

But because the estimates use a different accounting method from the budget, that figure doesn't include the $500-million the government says it will save that year from delaying capital spending. Based on figures from the previous budgets, the cuts would bring the defence budget to roughly $19-billion, less than it is now, in 2014-15.

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/budget/deep-cuts-to-military-mark-reversal-for-harper/article4097823/

 

Harper government talks tough against Russian 'invasion,' but cuts $2.7-billion from defence budget

The ongoing reductions come as the prime minister is expected to resist pressure from allies at this week’s NATO summit to spend substantially more on the military
 

 

 

Stephen Harper has been one of the toughest-talking leaders throughout the Ukraine crisis, yet newly released figures show National Defence is expected to face an even deeper budget hole in the coming year than previously anticipated.

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The ongoing reductions come as the prime minister is expected to resist pressure from allies at this week’s NATO summit to spend substantially more on the military.

Annual spending on the military, when compared with 2011, is slated to shrink by a total of $2.7-billion in 2015, according to a briefing note prepared for the deputy defence minister.

That would be almost $300-million more than earlier internal estimates, and roughly $600-million higher than the figure defence officials acknowledged last fall when they rolled out the department’s renewal plan.

In addition to planned cuts under the government’s strategic review, deficit reduction action plan, and wage restraint measures, defence is expected to face “other planning pressures,” according to a Sept. 16, 2013 memo.

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Those pressures include, among other things, severance for laid off civilians at defence; the bill for the Harper government’s pledge to sustain newly trained Afghan forces; and the cost of operating the Public Works secretariat that is picking a replacement for the CF-18s.

National Defence has repeatedly said that it — like other government departments — is expected to contribute towards the government’s drive towards a balanced budget next year.

The issue of how much allies fork out for their militaries will be among the major closed-door topics when NATO leaders meet this week in Wales.

Canada is under pressure — mostly from the United States and Britain — to dramatically increase its defence budget over the next 10 years to meet the NATO benchmark of two per cent of gross domestic product.

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According to the latest NATO figures, the Harper government spends one per cent of GDP on defence, just slightly ahead of financially-troubled Spain, the Slovak Republic, Hungary, Luxembourg, Lithuania, and Latvia.

Only two nations surpass the benchmark — the U.S. and Britain. Others, such as France, Germany, Norway and Italy, come close.

AP Photo/Sergei Grits

Some allies, such as the Dutch, have begun to rethink planned defence cuts, especially in light of last week’s military action by Russian troops in eastern Ukraine, which Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird described as an “invasion.”

Harper himself has left little doubt on where he believes events of the last eight months in eastern Europe belong in the grand sweep of history.

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“When a major power acts in a way that is so clearly aggressive, militaristic and imperialistic, this represents a significant threat to the peace and stability of the world and it’s time we all recognized the depth and the seriousness of that threat,” the prime minister said at a hastily arranged photo-op with the ambassadors of Ukraine, Estonia, Poland and Latvia on April 14.

“But as I say, the most important thing we need to do is to rally all of our allies throughout the western world and throughout the greater global community to understand that peace and stability is being threatened here in a way that has not been threatened since the end of the Cold War.”

Canada’s response, thus far, has been to commit CF-18s to patrolling the skies over the Baltic states; a frigate to sail with NATO’s standing task force; a boost in NATO headquarters staff; and ground troops to train alongside allies. It has also sent non-lethal military equipment and aid to Ukraine.

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AP Photo/Sergei Grits

A senior government official, speaking on background, said Canada is prepared to increase the defence budget, but described the NATO benchmark as an abstract figure and expressed concern about committing billions of extra dollars per year without a clear plan by the alliance on how it will deal with the long-term.

Dave Perry, an analyst with the Conference of Defence Associations, said, in order to meet the NATO goal, Ottawa would have to double the military’s budget to about $38-billion per year.

Spending more doesn’t necessarily mean a more effective military and Canada has demonstrated it gets a lot of efficiency out of the dollars it does commit, he said.

Financial estimates, that were part of the briefing package given to Rob Nicholson when he was sworn-in as defence minister in July 2013, show the Conservatives, despite past promises and rhetoric, weren’t planning to spend much more than the roughly $18.9-billion already set aside.

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In a rare display of conflicting messages, Nicholson’s parliamentary secretary, James Bezan, publicly suggested last spring that the country should be spending 1.7 per cent of GDP on its military.

AP Photo/Sergei Grits

When the Conservatives introduced their defence strategy in 2008, they underlined how the 20-year plan would provide “stable and predictable” funding to the military by delivering a guaranteed two per cent annual increase.

But Perry said it hasn’t worked out that way and, while the escalator is still there, it’s been more than offset by cuts elsewhere.

“It’s a bizarre situation where you’ve got $2.7 billion in cuts, taking away with the left hand; but with right hand your getting this escalation amount,” Perry said.

The Canada First Defence Strategy also promised that overseas missions would be paid for — as other nations do — through a special budgetary appropriation and not taken out of the departmental budget.

The war in Afghanistan was largely funded that way, but Nicholson’s briefing papers show other deployments, notably the 2011 bombing campaign in Libya and the Afghan training mission, were not.
 

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/harper-government-talks-tough-against-russian-invasion-but-cuts-2-7-billion-from-defence-budget/wcm/b3cb5ea6-b8dc-4e1a-bf96-8fe1f6aa80df/amp/

16 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

ah yes, Canada buying AN/APG-79V4 for the CF-18's

because Canada doesn't actually intend to buy F-35

Canada will keep flying the CF-18's into the 2040's

It’s Canada, anything’s possible!

[Aristides]

50 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Bad people don't volunteer. 

We can start with putting firm deadlines and dates into contracts, as well as penalties for failure. Such things are routine in commercial contracts. More money to the AGs office, and to the Information Commissioner, along with new rules on opening government files to the public.

That tally included the aircraft.

Nonsense, F-35B's are 135 million USD each. That's 4.8 billion for them alone.

[Dougie93]

24 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

It’s Canada, anything’s possible!

well, if you are willing to spend the money to keep classic cars on the road, it is doable

and the AN/APG-79V4 AESA with AIM-120D still over matches anything in the Russian arsenal

quite sure the Ukrainians would happily take the upgraded CF-18's over MiG-29 with R-77

[BeaverFever]

57 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

well, if you are willing to spend the money to keep classic cars on the road, it is doable

and the AN/APG-79V4 AESA with AIM-120D still over matches anything in the Russian arsenal

quite sure the Ukrainians would happily take the upgraded CF-18's over MiG-29 with R-77

Yep I understand we’ve already ordered the AIM-120D and were the first country approved by USA for export. I don’t believe its even operational in the US quite yet.  We also have the new AIM-9x sidewinders on order.    We will also finally have JSOW so we can bomb targets from over 100km away which is key

Edited June 16, 2023 by BeaverFever