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Putin: Another Napoleon, Hitler? Another Thirty Years War?


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2 hours ago, August1991 said:

I was in Crimea after 2014. Most ordinary people were happy to be in Russia.

How did you enter it? Did you obtain a permission from its lawful government, internationally recognized without a single exception (not including the aggressor state and a few of its rogue buddies)?

Folks in North Korea must be genuinely happy to live under Un, forever. Got it.

RuZZian authoritarian intellectual junk lecturing Europe and other civilized world in diverse philosophies. Like there's anything new under the old Sun. Wow.

2 hours ago, August1991 said:

U krai nians? They are stubborn Slavs on the border.

"Stubborn" to Hitler, modern Nazis? If only they gave it up, would be as happy as ever (hunger genocide, mass repressions, forced mass relocations)? Like them, under Un and any other bloody totalitarian dictator are "happy". Gotcha. Keep it coming. So much valueless wisdom.

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6 hours ago, August1991 said:

Obama and Trump both let this slide.

Let "Hitler" slide? Ahah so shy.

In what world they let thuggery, and robbery "slide"? With what cost, and consequences? Do you want to live in a world where they do it all the time, and it became the norm and reality?

In 1938 they let it slide and hoped things would fix themselves, somehow. At what cost?

They did it again in 2014, so in 2021 Putin came up with an ultimatum already to NATO. Should they have let that one "slide" too? With Xis, Uns, mullahs and all kind of aggressive dictator stuff watching closely and taking notes? You bet.

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

America cannot fix the world's problems.

Putin made ultimatums to NATO, not Ukraine. NATO is a U.S. problem. You seem to be having a disconnect from the reality. Happens all the time if and when one struggles to observe and understand it objectively.

Edited by myata
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10 hours ago, August1991 said:

Disagree.

===

Obama and Trump were correct.

Obama lived abroad. Trump is a typical American.

Both understood - in their own way - America cannot fix the world's problems.

 

Ukraine needs support to preserve its independence. It is not just America that is supporting Ukraine, it is not even just NATO countries.

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On 3/31/2023 at 1:43 AM, myata said:

How did you enter it?

......

Enter Crimea? I took a plane from Moscow. This was after 2014.

Everyone in Crimea speaks Russian = except for Tartars, who are bilingual

No one in Crimea speaks "Ukrainian" - as if that is a different language from Russian.

=====

1. This is a civil war.

2. Trudeau Snr famously made federalism more important than nationalism.  

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3 hours ago, August1991 said:

Enter Crimea? I took a plane from Moscow. This was after 2014.

So you broke the law on entering the territory of Ukraine. Congrats. You can be banned for life from entering Ukraine, with all its internationally recognized territory of course.

3 hours ago, August1991 said:

1. This is a civil war.

As was WWII. Hitler was a victim. Hitler was liberating Germany's historic territories.

No difference. Nothing new. Congrats: you showed yourself for who you really are.

Edited by myata
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From Mayo to Moscow there were people rooting for Napoleon, at least initially. He offered the hope of a meritocratic, albeit authoritarian, future without the dead hand of the aristocracy keeping the commoners down. By contrast, Putin represents a reprise of that grim, imperial past the continent spent the twentieth century escaping from. Why would anybody want failure?
 

There’s no reason Russia couldn’t be as prosperous, free and peaceful as Canada or Sweden if it adopted our political system. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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On 6/18/2023 at 6:21 AM, myata said:

So you broke the law on entering the territory of Ukraine. Congrats. You can be banned for life from entering Ukraine, with all its internationally recognized territory of course.

As was WWII. Hitler was a victim. Hitler was liberating Germany's historic territories.

No difference. Nothing new. Congrats: you showed yourself for who you really are.

I travelled to western Ukraine after 2014 so I suppose I broke Ukraine's state law.

Galicia was once a wonderful place - like Quebec. Lemberg (like Montreal) was once a city where different people lived together.

 

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4 hours ago, August1991 said:

I travelled to western Ukraine after 2014 so I suppose I broke Ukraine's state law.

Galicia was once a wonderful place

Cut out the bull. So international law has no meaning for you? Like for Hitler and Putin? Congrats, you showed your real essence. "Galicia" and "Montreal" are only superficial tokens, pseudo-civilized guise on the reality of a brutal uncivilized Eastern horde.

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On 6/18/2023 at 10:05 AM, SpankyMcFarland said:

There’s no reason Russia couldn’t be as prosperous, free and peaceful as Canada or Sweden if it adopted our political system

You forgot about the people. People, citizens, voters are important in democracy. Interesting that Putin's version of it, and ours in Canada seem to be slowly but quite steadily converging these days: zero accountability, empty elections, virtually unlimited political power in the hands of one clique. Scary, no?

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It’s interesting that you can be so articulate on Putin, but then in almost the same breath draw parallels with talking head Trudeau.  
 

Maybe when opponents starting getting gunned down on Ottawa’s streets, fall out of balconies or get poisoned with radioactive or nerve agents we could talk about that.  

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42 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

It’s interesting that you can be so articulate on Putin, but then in almost the same breath draw parallels with talking head Trudeau.  
 

Maybe when opponents starting getting gunned down on Ottawa’s streets, fall out of balconies or get poisoned with radioactive or nerve agents we could talk about that.  

I don’t see them as comparable and if Poilievre wins I won’t see him as comparable either. We have a functioning democracy in Canada. Of course it’s imperfect but it still works. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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On 6/18/2023 at 10:05 AM, SpankyMcFarland said:

From Mayo to Moscow there were people rooting for Napoleon, at least initially. He offered the hope of a meritocratic, albeit authoritarian, future without the dead hand of the aristocracy keeping the commoners down. By contrast, Putin represents a reprise of that grim, imperial past the continent spent the twentieth century escaping from. Why would anybody want failure?
 

There’s no reason Russia couldn’t be as prosperous, free and peaceful as Canada or Sweden if it adopted our political system. 

Just a thought but...making other cultures think the way we tend to...has not gone well in the past.

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On 6/18/2023 at 7:05 AM, SpankyMcFarland said:

From Mayo to Moscow there were people rooting for Napoleon, at least initially. He offered the hope of a meritocratic, albeit authoritarian, future without the dead hand of the aristocracy keeping the commoners down. By contrast, Putin represents a reprise of that grim, imperial past the continent spent the twentieth century escaping from. Why would anybody want failure?
 

There’s no reason Russia couldn’t be as prosperous, free and peaceful as Canada or Sweden if it adopted our political system. 

Napoleon made himself Emperor as well as family members and some of his marshals kings and dukes. Doesn't seem like "without the dead hand of the aristocracy" to me. He just built a new aristocracy centred around himself.

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4 hours ago, Aristides said:

Napoleon made himself Emperor as well as family members and some of his marshals kings and dukes. Doesn't seem like "without the dead hand of the aristocracy" to me. He just built a new aristocracy centred around himself.

I think he did more than that which is why the absolute monarchies of mainland Europe were so determined to destroy him. His government marked a step on the road to secular meritocracy and rule of law where all citizens, regardless of class or religion, would have the chance to progress. The case for Boney is rather strongly stated here but you get the gist:
 

Quote

The autocratic rulers of Russia, Prussia and Austria wanted to crush the revolutionary ideas for which Napoleon stood, including meritocracy, equality before the law, anti-feudalism and religious toleration. Essentially, they wanted to turn the clock back to a time when Europe was safe for aristocracy. At this they succeeded—until the outbreak of the Great War a century later.

Quote

If Napoleon had remained emperor of France for the six years remaining in his natural life, European civilization would have benefited inestimably. The reactionary Holy Alliance of Russia, Prussia and Austria would not have been able to crush liberal constitutionalist movements in Spain, Greece, Eastern Europe and elsewhere; pressure to join France in abolishing slavery in Asia, Africa and the Caribbean would have grown; the benefits of meritocracy over feudalism would have had time to become more widely appreciated; Jews would not have been forced back into their ghettos in the Papal States and made to wear the yellow star again; encouragement of the arts and sciences would have been better understood and copied; and the plans to rebuild Paris would have been implemented, making it the most gorgeous city in the world.


No surprise Roberts neglects to mention British rule in Ireland here but it too might been forced to become a little more civilized.


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/we-better-off-napoleon-never-lost-waterloo-180955298/

 

Luttwak puts it this way:

Quote

To my great surprise, my father burst out with a vehement attack on ‘the English’ for having selfishly destroyed Napoleon’s empire. Wherever it had advanced in Europe, modernity had advanced with it, sweeping away myriad expressions of obscurantism and hereditary privilege, emancipating the Jews and all manner of serfs, allowing freedom of, and from, religion, and offering opportunities for advancement for the talented regardless of their origins.

Quote

What counted was the progressive moderniser, the law-giver of the Code Napoléon of 1804, actually the Code civil des Français, which was really a civil code for Europeans, since Napoleon’s empire français extended across the Low Countries to Jutland and into northwest Italy, and took in the ex-Papal States and Dalmatia (as Illyria), adding up to a good part of Western Europe. Nor was Napoleon’s Code as ephemeral as his victories. It endures as the core of civil law not only in France but in its former European possessions, and their former possessions too, encompassing ex-French Africa, all of Latin America and the Philippines by way of Spain, and Indonesia by way of the Netherlands, as well as Quebec and Louisiana.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v36/n24/edward-luttwak/a-damned-nice-thing

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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Napoleon did  believe in meritocracy but on his terms. He also had the most efficient secret police in Europe, which became a model for those that followed, He also had total control of media. He was a complex character who made some real reforms but a despot at heart.

 

Britain was a constitutional monarchy but it had six different prime ministers during the Napoleonic wars.

Edited by Aristides
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5 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I think he did more than that which is why the absolute monarchies of mainland Europe were so determined to destroy him.

That probably had more to do with the fact that he spent most of his lifetime fighting wars of conquest. 

5 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

His government marked a step on the road to secular meritocracy and rule of law where all citizens, regardless of class or religion, would have the chance to progress. The case for Boney is rather strongly stated here but you get the gist:

The case for Boney and the things he stood for can be neatly summarized by the fact that he installed his brother as the King of Spain.  

 

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8 hours ago, Moonbox said:

That probably had more to do with the fact that he spent most of his lifetime fighting wars of conquest. 

The case for Boney and the things he stood for can be neatly summarized by the fact that he installed his brother as the King of Spain.  

 

 

Like the Versailles Treat after WW!, Napoleon invariably imposed conditions on the defeated that pretty much guaranteed another war. 

He made his brother Joseph, King of Spain, brother Louis, King of Holland, brother Jerome, King of Westphalia, his son, King of Rome and Marshal Murat, King of Naples.

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