Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 minute ago, blackbird said: No I don't think it sits in mid-air. Let me ask you what this verse tells you? "11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 3:11 KJV What would you say about this Old Testament prophecy by Isaiah? " 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. " Isaiah 28:16 Who is this referring to? Where does it sit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Yakuda said: This is the problem with talking to protestants 1 Cor. 3:11 "11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." By claiming Peter is the rock or foundation of the church, isn't the Catholic church going directly against this verse? Edited January 17 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 minute ago, blackbird said: 1 Cor. 3:11 "11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." By claiming Peter is the rock or foundation of the church, isn't the Catholic church going directly against this verse? If not in mid air where does the cornerstone sit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 3 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Where does it sit? If you consider the verse about the corner stone and the verse in 1 Cor. 3:11 about the one foundation, I would say it makes Jesus Christ the foundation of the church, not a sinful man like Peter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 Just now, blackbird said: If you consider the verse about the corner stone and the verse in 1 Cor. 3:11 about the one foundation, I would say it makes Jesus Christ the foundation of the church, not a sinful man like Peter. If not in mid air where does the cornerstone sit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deluge Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 On 3/12/2023 at 1:15 PM, Michael Hardner said: In the face of a record number of bills centred around transgenderism, the United Church of Christ in the US has affirmed their position supporting trans youth as part of the church of Christ. https://www.ucc.org/trans-youth-lives-matter-ucc-leaders-commit-to-love-and-justice-in-action-amidst-anti-lgbtq-bills/ For me, this controversy feels*generated. It ticks all the right marks to get reactions from certain constituencies. I expect it will pass, but these milestones are significant. You're not wrong, Mike. It is generated, and it's one more example of Christians caving in to secularists. If things keep going the way they are, it won't be too long before anti-Christians have taken complete control of Christianity; and when that happens, there won't be any more Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Yakuda said: If not in mid air where does the cornerstone sit? I'm not a construction expert but in the verse we are talking about (Eph. 2:20), it states quite clearly " 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" I believe when it says the foundation of the apostles and prophets must be referring to the Holy Scriptures which they wrote because that is what we have from them and it says Jesus Christ himself being the corner stone is saying Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. That verse is referring to the "household of God" in the preceding verse. The household of God is the church or body of Christ, the believers in Christ. Would you agree? Edited January 17 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 minute ago, blackbird said: I'm not a construction expert but in the verse we are talking about (Eph. 2:20), it states quite clearly " 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" I believe when it says the foundation of the apostles and prophets must be referring to the Holy Scriptures which they wrote because that is what we have from them and it says Jesus Christ himself being the corner stone is saying Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. That verse is referring to the "household of God" in the preceding verse. The household of God is the church or body of Christ, the believers in Christ. Would you agree? You don't know where the cornerstone of a building sits if it's not in mid air? See this why I have little regard for the sincerity of Protestants. They've been programmed and they can only repeat what's been programmed into them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 (edited) 29 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: I hope you’ll keep that in mind when it comes time to vote. If there’s a Christian woman running for the Conservatives, I hope you’ll give this passage thought and not vote for her, given she is not supposed to be in authority over men. It is important to understand politics and voting is not the church. Politics is part of the world system and is inherently flawed and corrupt. When we participate by voting or supporting a political party, we are doing that because we are trying to choose the least of the evils. What ever we do in this world often involves having to participate in the world system but Christians have to participate to try to diminish or weaken the evils in the world system. If we don't vote, we are just allowing others who don't have any Christian morals or principles to have free reign. We sometimes have to vote for a woman candidate because she may be a conservative and the other candidates might be men but be liberals and NDP which would be a worse choice. If we don't vote for the woman, we may end up worse off. Edited January 17 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 2 minutes ago, Yakuda said: You don't know where the cornerstone of a building sits if it's not in mid air? See this why I have little regard for the sincerity of Protestants. They've been programmed and they can only repeat what's been programmed into them. That doesn't make sense. We are talking about the meaning of the verse, not trying to dissect it from a construction engineering point of view. You argument is fiction. You are trying to invent something to discredit an important verse that shows Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. How else could you interpret the verse. What does it mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 6 minutes ago, blackbird said: That doesn't make sense. We are talking about the meaning of the verse, not trying to dissect it from a construction engineering point of view. You argument is fiction. You are trying to invent something to discredit an important verse that shows Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. How else could you interpret the verse. What does it mean? It's very important as it's an analogy. Jesus says he is the cornerstone. So if a cornerstone doesnt sit in thin air where does it sit? You refuse to answer and we both know why. You think this is the first time I've engaged a programmed Protestant? Answer the question, if a cornerstone doesnt sit in mid air where does it sit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 14 minutes ago, blackbird said: If we don't vote, we are just allowing others who don't have any Christian morals or principles to have free rein. (Christian) Women are not to teach or hold authority over (Christian) men. And, as you say, how could these Conservative Christian women be good wives and mothers while being a politician? Can they? I suppose that point doesn’t matter if they’re not to hold authority over men. How could you vote for someone to have that kind of authority when your bible tells you not to? You’re setting aside your bible to go against what it says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 minute ago, Yakuda said: It's very important as it's an analogy. Jesus says he is the cornerstone. So if a cornerstone doesnt sit in thin air where does it sit? You refuse to answer and we both know why. You think this is the first time I've engaged a programmed Protestant? Answer the question, if a cornerstone doesnt sit in mid air where does it sit? I thought it sits on the ground but I am not a construction person. Maybe you could tell me. What is the relevance of where it sits? I don't think I am programmed, unless I am programmed to believe the Bible. That would be a good thing. I believe what the Bible says? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 (edited) 4 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: How could you vote for someone to have that kind of authority when your bible tells you not to? You’re setting aside your bible to go against what it says. Where does the Bible say we should not vote for non-Christians or not vote for women? We are required to participate in what we have. That is the political system. We don't get to choose who is going to be our candidates. Sometimes, we have to choose people to be our leaders or representatives in various levels of government who are not Christians because most of the world are non-believers. We try to have the best people in power out of who we have to choose from. How is that so hard to understand? Edited January 17 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 8 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: How could you vote for someone to have that kind of authority when your bible tells you not to? You’re setting aside your bible to go against what it says. You are again making things up. You are good at making up fiction. I already explained the world and government system is not a theocracy. Most people are not Christians and we must vote for the least evil to help prevent bad people from taking control. That is why we must make choices in life and politics. There is often no choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 19 minutes ago, blackbird said: I thought it sits on the ground but I am not a construction person. Maybe you could tell me. What is the relevance of where it sits? I don't think I am programmed, unless I am programmed to believe the Bible. That would be a good thing. I believe what the Bible says? Yes it sits on the ground but a cornerstone on unstable ground will not support the building put on top of it. Matt 16:17-19 No computer thinks it's programmed. You think you believe the Bible but you believe what has been tod to you to believe. Just like in John 6 Jesus is clear in the above passage but I suspect you will tell me why I cant take Jesus at his word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Yakuda said: You think you believe the Bible but you believe what has been tod to you to believe. You of course don't believe what has been taught to you by the Catholic church is programming? Isn't criticizing someone for being "programmed" when you yourself are programmed called hypocrisy? Of course it is. Of course you don't consider what you've been taught as being "programmed". Only what I've been taught is "programmed". That's funny. I would recommend you do some reading and learn both sides of the story. If you only know one side, how can you judge who is telling the truth? The Bible is of course the real source of authority and truth. Would you agree with that? "16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:16 Edited January 17 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Yes it sits on the ground but a cornerstone on unstable ground will not support the building put on top of it. So you are actually claiming that where it says Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone is unstable ground? That is completely illogical. Go back and read Matthew 16 from the beginning of the chapter. "13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. " Matthew 16:13-17 So it was Peter's confession that Jesus was referring to as the "rock". That is his confession of Jesus, thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Obviously Jesus is the Rock, not Peter. The Rock that Jesus was referring to is Himself, the Christ, the Son of the living God. Edited January 17 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 6 minutes ago, blackbird said: You of course don't believe what has been taught to you by the Catholic church is programming? Isn't criticizing someone for being "programmed" when you yourself are programmed called hypocrisy? Of course it is. Of course you don't consider what you've been taught as being "programmed". Only what I've been taught is "programmed". That's funny. I would recommend you do some reading and learn both sides of the story. If you only know one side, how can you judge who is telling the truth? The Bible is of course the real source of authority and truth. Would you agree with that? "16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:16 You're getting angry but can't run away this time. Once again Jesus is quite clear, Matt 6: 18, "And I say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it". Jesus says MY church not 20-30,000 denominations 4 minutes ago, blackbird said: So you are actually claiming that where it says Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone is unstable ground? Seriously, you need to give your head a shake. " 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; " Ephesians 2:19, 20 No Jesus said he will build his church on the rock of Peter and that not even luthers followers will prevail against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 minute ago, Yakuda said: You're getting angry but can't run away this time. Once again Jesus is quite clear, Matt 6: 18, "And I say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it". Jesus says MY church not 20-30,000 denominations No Jesus said he will build his church on the rock of Peter and that not even luthers followers will prevail against it. Will NOT prevail against it. 6 minutes ago, blackbird said: So you are actually claiming that where it says Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone is unstable ground? Seriously, you need to give your head a shake. " 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; " Ephesians 2:19, 20 The cornerstone is not the ground the ground is not the cornerstone. Jesus is clear, you are peter and on this rock I will build MY church. Simple straightforward message just like john 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 4 minutes ago, Yakuda said: The cornerstone is not the ground the ground is not the cornerstone. Jesus is clear, you are peter and on this rock I will build MY church. Simple straightforward message just like john 6 I would suggest you do some studying and read both sides of the matter. You only know the Catholic interpretation. But there is another far more credible interpretation of Scripture. That's why Christians sing in the hymn "On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand." It would be absurd to sing On Peter the solid rock I stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 minute ago, blackbird said: I would suggest you do some studying and read both sides of the matter. You only know the Catholic interpretation. But there is another far more credible interpretation of Scripture. That's why Christians sing in the hymn "On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand." It would be absurd to sing On Peter the solid rock I stand. Jesus called Peter the rock upon whom he would build his church, not me. Yes it would be absurd because you don't stand on Peter the church does. Jesus said so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 On 3/12/2023 at 3:15 PM, Michael Hardner said: For me, this controversy feels*generated. It ticks all the right marks to get reactions from certain constituencies. I expect it will pass, but these milestones are significant. It feels generated alright, especially in that Canada legalized gay marriage decades ago, and the United Church has allowed gay pastors since 1992. I can cite that if you have a problem. In fact being gay was a dull and boring issue before this latest Tranny revolution was blessed upon us. Attendance at gay pride parades has been dropping for years. Folks are like, "Gay? Oh well. Zzzzz..." and not paying them much attention anymore. And maybe, THAT'S the only real problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 22 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Jesus called Peter the rock upon whom he would build his church, not me. Yes it would be absurd because you don't stand on Peter the church does. Jesus said so. I think we are just going in circles. You would be better off to read both sides interpretation. How else can you learn who is telling the truth? I have to admit I could find all kinds of arguments but you don't seem to be listening. So I have to leave it for now and take a break. Check out Roman Catholicism by Loraine Boettner on the archive.org website. It is free to read. The book would probably cost a lot. But this is totally free unless you want to donate to archive.org Roman Catholicism : Loraine Boettner : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive Section V. Peter has nine chapters on it dealing with various parts of the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 29 minutes ago, Yakuda said: you don't stand on Peter the church does. Jesus said so. "Using Peter’s name and making, as it were, a play upon words, Jesus said to Peter, “You are Petros, and upon this petra I will build my church.” The truth that Peter had just confessed was the foundation upon which Christ would build His church. He meant that Peter had seen the basic, essential truth concerning His person, the essential truth upon which the church would be founded, and that nothing would be able to overthrow that truth, not even all the forces of evil that might be arrayed against it. Peter was the first among the disciples to see our Lord as the Christ of God. Christ commended him for that spiritual insight, and said that His church would be founded upon that fact. And that, of course, was a far different thing from founding the church on Peter."-- part of Loraine Boettner's book Roman Catholicism chap.5 Jesus often makes plays on words, just as he did in John ch.6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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