United Church Affirms Support for Trans Youth

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Yakuda said:

That's about faith "alone" which was the word the heretic Luther added to Scripture.

This is what my Roman Catholic Bible says.  It is The New American Bible and has the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur which approves it as an official Catholic Bible.

"since no one will be justified in God's sight through observance of the law; the law does nothing but point out what is sinful."  Romans 3:20 

"For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from observance of the law."  Romans 3:28

"Now that we have been justified by faith, we are at peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."  Romans 5:1

These are all from a Roman Catholic Bible.   These are just three verses out of many.  You can look at the verses in my post above refuting the Council of Trent Canons mentioned and compare them in your own Catholic Bible if you have one.

 

Edited January 18 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

This is what my Roman Catholic Bible says.  It is The New American Bible and has the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur which approves it as an official Catholic Bible.

"since no one will be justified in God's sight through observance of the law; the law does nothing but point out what is sinful."  Romans 3:20 

"For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from observance of the law."  Romans 3:28

"Now that we have been justified by faith, we are at peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."  Romans 5:1

These are all from a Roman Catholic Bible.   These are just three verses out of many.  You can look at the verses in my post above refuting the Council of Trent Canons mentioned and compare them in your own Catholic Bible if you have one.

 

First of all the bible IS Catholic it's not a Catholic bible.

Next we see examples of Protestants abusing Scripture. Two the the three passages you offered reference "observance of the law". Only the last one mentions faith but not that faith alone saves. 

Here's another passage you will ignore James 2:23-24 Thus the words of Scripture were fulfilled that say "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness" and he was called the friend of God. You can see, then, that a man is justified by works and not faith alone. 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Yakuda said:

that a man is justified by works and not faith alone. 

So you ignored all the verses I gave in an earlier post about the Council of Trents' Canons.

quote

CANON 9:  “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.” https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html 

“because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin,” (Rom. 3:20).

“being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which  is in Christ Jesus,” (Rom. 3:24).

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law,” (Rom. 3:28).

“For what does the Scripture say? ‘ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” (Rom. 4:3).

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” (Rom. 5:1).

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,” (Eph. 2:8).

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,” (Titus 3:5).

CANON 12:  “If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified…let him be accursed.”  https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,” (John 1:12).

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law,” (Rom. 3:28).

“For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,'” (Rom. 4:3).

“Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself,” (Heb. 7:25–27).

“For this reason, I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day,” (2 Tim. 1:12). 

James 2:24 is not denying justification by faith.

Faith must be followed by works in one's life.  That means when one accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior, he thereafter lives for Christ which involves doing good.  But he is not doing good works to earn salvation.  That is the difference.  James is talking about the Christian life after one is saved or born again.

Jesus talks about the need to be born again in John ch3.  

Catholicism rejects salvation by grace through faith and claims one must work for his salvation (and included the sacraments, penance, etc.)  

Read the verses about salvation by grace through faith and you will see one is saved and has salvation the moment he believes.  He is not working for his salvation.  He is doing good works because he is saved.  That is what James means. That is the big difference between Catholicism and Biblical Christianity.  A Christian is not working to earn his salvation.

James 2:24 therefore is simply saying when a person has been born again or believes in Christ, he will do good works, not to earn his salvation, but simply because he is a child of God.  Good works is evidence of one who is born again by grace through faith.

 

Edited January 18 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

So you ignored all the verses I gave in an earlier post about the Council of Trents' Canons.

quote

CANON 9:  “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.” https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html 

“because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin,” (Rom. 3:20).

“being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which  is in Christ Jesus,” (Rom. 3:24).

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law,” (Rom. 3:28).

“For what does the Scripture say? ‘ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” (Rom. 4:3).

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” (Rom. 5:1).

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,” (Eph. 2:8).

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,” (Titus 3:5).

CANON 12:  “If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified…let him be accursed.”  https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,” (John 1:12).

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law,” (Rom. 3:28).

“For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,'” (Rom. 4:3).

“Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself,” (Heb. 7:25–27).

“For this reason, I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day,” (2 Tim. 1:12). 

James 2:24 is not denying justification by faith.

Faith must be followed by works in one's life.  That means when one accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior, he thereafter lives for Christ which involves doing good.  But he is not doing good works to earn salvation.  That is the difference.  James is talking about the Christian life after one is saved or born again.

Jesus talks about the need to be born again in John ch3.  

Catholicism rejects salvation by grace through faith and claims one must work for his salvation (and included the sacraments, penance, etc.)  

Read the verses about and you will see one is saved and has salvation the moment he believes.  He is not working for his salvation.  He is doing good works because he is saved.  That is the big difference between Catholicism and Biblical Christianity.  A Christian is not working to earn his salvation.

James 2:24 therefore is simply saying when a person has been born again or believes in Christ, he will do good works, not be saved, but simply because he is a child of God.  Good works is evidence of one who is born again by grace through faith.

 

Not ignoring clarifying, faith alone is anathema. The ONLY place faith and alone appear together in the bible is to say we aren't save by faith alone.

 

Once again volume does not equal accuracy. Parroting things that been programmed into isnt impressive. 

[blackbird]

8 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Not ignoring clarifying, faith alone is anathema. The ONLY place faith and alone appear together in the bible is to say we aren't save by faith alone.

 

Once again volume does not equal accuracy. Parroting things that been programmed into isnt impressive. 

I just explained it but you apparently ignored it.

We are talking about justification by faith and evidence of that faith by works.  That is what James is referring to.

The Apostle Paul mentions in numerous places that one is saved by grace through faith.  That person then has salvation and he goes on to live for Christ or do works.  He is not working to earn his salvation.  He is working because he is already saved.  Catholicism denies that one can be saved by faith and alone and follow it by doing good works.  Catholicism claims one must work for his salvation.  Do you see the difference?  True Christians are working because they are saved, not trying to earn salvation.  That is the difference.

Also on a slightly different subject, if Christians must atone for their own sins by having priests hold Masses, say penances, rosaries, and spend time in Purgatory, then Christ must have died in vain.  Nobody would know whether they will go to heaven or not.  Catholics don't know whether they have salvation. 

Edited January 18 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I just explained it but you apparently ignored it.

We are talking about justification by faith and evidence of that faith by works.  That is what James is referring to.

The Apostle Paul mentions in numerous places that one is saved by grace through faith.  That person then has salvation and he goes on to live for Christ or do works.  He is not working to earn his salvation.  He is working because he is already saved.  Catholicism denies that one can be saved by faith and alone and follow it by doing good works.  Catholicism claims one must work for his salvation.  Do you see the difference?  True Christian are working because they are saved, not trying to earn salvation.  That is the difference.

As always protestants assume that salvation is an either or proposition. It's either faith or works. Faulty logic AND theology. It's both and. It's both faith and works. Scripture is clear. 

[blackbird]

11 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

As always protestants assume that salvation is an either or proposition. It's either faith or works. Faulty logic AND theology. It's both and. It's both faith and works. Scripture is clear. 

No, I can see you don't understand what Scripture teaches and don't understand salvation.  Nobody can earn salvation.

Paul makes it clear in Romans is is not by works.  Works is simply evidence of one already having salvation.  But I can see you are not really interested in knowing what the Bible teaches.

You ignore all the verses I gave to show salvation is by faith.  Then one verse in James shows true salvation should have works in the believer's life.  That is not saying one is earning his salvation because Romans makes it clear a believer already has his salvation and various verses including in John say a true Christian will never lose his salvation.

If you want to believe Catholicism's dogma that you must work to earn salvation, then maybe you don't have it.  How can any Catholic say he is saved if he still must earn salvation?  Answer that.

[blackbird]

14 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

It's both faith and works.

So nobody knows in Catholicism whether they are going to heaven or not?  How can you know if you have salvation if you must still work for it?

[blackbird]

41 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

The ONLY place faith and alone appear together in the bible is to say we aren't save by faith alone.

"4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."  Romans 4:4

"20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;|  Romans 3:20-25

"2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4  Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. {so many: or, so great} 5  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  Galatians 3:2-5

"8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9  Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

So it is clear we are not saved by our works.  We are saved strictly by grace through faith.  When a person believes and accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior, he is born again by the Holy Spirit.  It is not a process.  It is something that happens at the time one believes in Christ as Savior and believes Christ died and paid for all of his sins.  Then he works for the Lord.  But he becomes a Christian by faith at a given time,  He doesn't become a Christian through some kind of process of working for his salvation.  All these verses show clearly salvation is by faith alone and then a person works.  Paul condemned the idea of working for salvation.  Imputed righteousness is given to the believer the moment he accepts Christ as his Savior.

Edited January 18 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

19 minutes ago, blackbird said:

"4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."  Romans 4:4

"20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;|  Romans 3:20-25

"2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4  Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. {so many: or, so great} 5  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  Galatians 3:2-5

"8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9  Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

So it is clear we are not saved by our works.  We are saved strictly by grace through faith.  When a person believes and accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior, he is born again by the Holy Spirit.  It is not a process.  It is something that happens at the time one believes in Christ as Savior and believes Christ died and paid for all of his sins.  Then he works for the Lord.  But he becomes a Christian by faith at a given time,  He doesn't become a Christian through some kind of process of working for his salvation.  All these verses show clearly salvation is by faith alone and then a person works.  Paul condemned the idea of working for salvation.  Imputed righteousness is given to the believer the moment he accepts Christ as his Savior

How many times do you need to be told? Volume doesnt replace accuracy. You can cut and paste all you like. 

Again no one says salvation is through works. You have to think and not be a parrot. Salvation is not though works it's through both faith and works. Scripture is clear. 

[blackbird]

47 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Salvation is not though works it's through both faith and works.

  You are obviously ignoring all the verses I quoted which shows salvation is by grace through faith.

You still claim salvation is by faith plus works.  How does that work then? 

If it is by faith plus works, then how can anybody say they are saved at this moment in time?  Do you have salvation now?  How do you know?  

 

[CrakHoBarbie]

33 minutes ago, blackbird said:

  How do you know?  

 

How do you know your God exists?

You don't have one iota of tangible evidence of your gods existence. 

Just words from an ancient book of mythology and your feelings.

 

[herbie]

The Pope declared the other day that sexual pleasure is a gift from God. Must really burn the fundumbmental's.

You're slipping - haven't posted about that yet as proof RCs are all perverts.

[blackbird]

33 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

How do you know your God exists?

That's not difficult.

The universe is not an accident.  The claim that it came into existence by itself is illogical.  Every effect has a cause.  The existence of the universe had to have a cause.  That cause is God.

Just look around at the creation and the complexity of things.

Biologists have found out in the past 50 years that the basic living cell is extremely complex with mountains of data stored DNA.  These living organisms could never happen by chance because of the complexity of the information in them.  The universe is very complex and operates according to amazing laws of physics that required an extremely powerful, intelligent designer Creator we call God.

The fact the universe is an effect means that it required a cause.  Every effect has a cause.  That means the existence of the universe required an intelligent designer we call God.

Secondly and very important is the Holy Scriptures written by men who were inspired by God is full of evidence for the existence of God.  There are a long list of miracles that were witnessed down through time that were caused by God.

The Bible also has all kinds of prophecies whereby future events were predicted to happen and guess what?  The events came to pass just as it said, in some cases centuries later.

The fact that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and seen by many eye witnesses.  This proves he is who he said he is.

He performed many miracles recorded in the Bible too.

Edited January 18 by blackbird

[CrakHoBarbie]

35 minutes ago, blackbird said:

That's not difficult.

The universe is not an accident.  The claim that it came into existence by itself is illogical.  Every effect has a cause.  The existence of the universe had to have a cause.  That cause is God.

Just look around at the creation and the complexity of things.

Biologists have found out in the past 50 years that the basic living cell is extremely complex with mountains of data stored DNA.  These living organisms could never happen by chance because of the complexity of the information in them.  The universe is very complex and operates according to amazing laws of physics that required an extremely powerful, intelligent designer Creator we call God.

The fact the universe is an effect means that it required a cause.  Every effect has a cause.  That means the existence of the universe required an intelligent designer we call God.

Secondly and very important is the Holy Scriptures written by men who were inspired by God is full of evidence for the existence of God.  There are a long list of miracles that were witnessed down through time that were caused by God.

The Bible also has all kinds of prophecies whereby future events were predicted to happen and guess what?  The events came to pass just as it said, in some cases centuries later.

The fact that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and seen by many eye witnesses.  This proves he is who he said he is.

He performed many miracles recorded in the Bible too.

That the Universe exists is not proof that your God exists.

Mankind has manufactured over 2000 gods. 

What tangible evidence do you have that your God exists?

Edited January 19 by CrakHoBarbie

[blackbird]

20 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

That the Universe exists is not proof that your God exists.

Mankind has manufactured over 2000 gods. 

What tangible evidence do you have that your God exists?

As I explained, the universe which means the creation all around us we see with out eyes and the Holy Scriptures, in English, the King James Bible.  

What kind of tangible evidence do you want?  Look at the flowers, the birds, animals, humans, and the complexity of all of them.

[CrakHoBarbie]

8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

As I explained, the universe which means the creation all around us we see with out eyes and the Holy Scriptures, in English, the King James Bible.  

What kind of tangible evidence do you want?  Look at the flowers, the birds, animals, humans, and the complexity of all of them.

Words written in an ancient fictional book of mythology are not tangible evidence of your gods existence. 

The fact that that the Universe exists is not proof that it was created by your God.

 

Please show tangible evidence.

 

 

Edited January 19 by CrakHoBarbie

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

Words written in an ancient fictional book of mythology are not tangible evidence of your gods existence. 

Please show tangible evidence.

 

 

Apart from the Bible, the mere existence of the creation around us is the evidence.

If you don't accept what we can see with our eyes, there is not much more I can say.  

The only alternative for you is to read the King James Bible.

Edited January 19 by blackbird

[CrakHoBarbie]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Apart from the Bible, the mere existence of the creation around us is the evidence.

It's evidence that we exist.

Not evidence that we were created by your God.

All you've got supporting your contention is a book of mythology and your feelings.

Let's try something else....

Can you admit that your belief is based on faith alone?

Edited January 19 by CrakHoBarbie

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

Please show tangible evidence.

Oh, I do know of one book you could read that might help.

The book is called "Darwin's Universe:- From Nothing, By Nothing, For Nothing,  Survival for Nothing

by Yank T. Wee.

 It is available on Amazon.

1 minute ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

It's evidence that we exist.

Not evidence that we were created by your God.

All you've got supporting your contention is a book of mythology and your feelings.

Let's try something else....

Can you admit that your belief is based on faith alone?

No.  It is not blind faith.  It is based on reason.  Get the book I mentioned above.

[CrakHoBarbie]

Just now, blackbird said:

Oh, I do know of one book you could read that might help.

The book is called "Darwin's Universe:- From Nothing, By Nothing, For Nothing,  Survival for Nothing

by Yank T. Wee.

 It is available on Amazon.

There is no book that proves the Universe was created by your God.

If your God exists, present him.

[blackbird]

25 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

There is no book that proves the Universe was created by your God.

If your God exists, present him.

I gave you the evidence.  There is nothing more I can do.  If you want to know, you have to make an effort.  I am not interested in further useless talk.  

[CrakHoBarbie]

23 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I gave you the evidence.  There is nothing more I can do.  If you want to know, you have to make an effort.  I am not interested in further useless talk.  

Can you admit your beliefs are based on faith?

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

Can you admit your beliefs are based on faith?

Already told you the answer to that.  My beliefs are based on the evidence we can see with our eyes and the Biblical record.   If you are just looking for an argument, you will have to look elsewhere.   If you have a serious question, I may try to answer it.   But I have dealt with many people like you and I don't see it as a good use of time which is valuable.

Edited January 19 by blackbird

[CrakHoBarbie]

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

.  My beliefs are based on the evidence we can see with our eyes and the Biblical record.  

So a book of mythology and your feelings. 

Got it.

I'll bet your a MAGA

MAGA and religion go hand in hand because they both require a disconnect from reality in order to participate. 

Edited January 19 by CrakHoBarbie